Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Cry me a river (Read 10249 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box herdman14
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Cry me a river
Jan 30th, 2006 at 6:07pm
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I've been reading some of the crap posted on this website and all I see are a bunch of uninformed babies crying about their polygraph experience. Having been an adjudicator of security clearances for a number of years, I can say that you people have no idea what you are talking about. First off, there are 4 different calls SPR (significant physiological response), NSPR (no significant physiological response), Inconclusive (meaning they couldnt get a good read), and Incomplete (meaning they didnt get to, or didnt finish the question). The polygraph machine is 100% accurate. All it does is measures physiological responses. That's it! It's not a lie detector, it's just a machine that measures physiological reactions. That being said, I can't speak on behalf off all agencies but the CIA does not tell you whether you passed or failed. So, anyone who claims they have would be lying. I read one man's personal statement that stated "If I had access to a video recording of my polygraph examination, I could simply sit back, hit the Play button, and let the wheels of justice turn," well genius, if you felt you were treated unfairly, why didn't you complain to your company security officer, who could then file a former complaint against the polygrapher? Then the tape would be reviewed to corroborate what your saying is true. It's amazing the number of feel sorry for me stories I've read on here. I happen to be the Personnel Security Manager for a large defense contractor and I have not had one person ask to file a complaint. Also, I wouldn't get too hung up on the calls of SPR and NSPR, if you bother to read the DCID 6/4 guidelines, you won't find in them anywhere were it states the calls can be used against you. It's only what you admit in your session. I could spend the rest of the day ripping holes in the statements that have been made on this website, but I have better things to do than read sob stories.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #1 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 6:55pm
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herdman14,

It's no crap that many qualified applicants have been and continue to be falsely accused of deception and wrongly denied employment by intelligence and law enforcement agencies based on polygraph results. Nor is it crap that polygraph screening has no scientific basis and zero validity.

You are correct in stating that the polygraph is not a lie detector. Nonetheless, the U.S. Government relies on polygraph chart readings to decide whether applicants have or have not spoken the truth. And the CIA leaves those who "fail" the polygraph with little doubt about the result, as they are accused of deception and subjected to a post-test interrogation.

You seem to suggest that polygraph results are not relied on in making security clearance determinations, pointing out that DCID 6/4  does not explicitly state that polygraphers' calls can be used against a person. But neither does it state that they can not be used against a person. They can and are. According to former CIA recruiter Melissa Boyle Mahle, "In 2001, for every three applicants sent to Security for clearances, only one emerged cleared. The vast majority were rejected on the basis of the polygraph."
  

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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #2 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 7:01pm
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I think Mahle probably intended to indicate that information that came out of the polygraph interview was utilized in reaching a negative finding during adjudication.   Just an opinion...
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #3 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 7:11pm
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Persil_White wrote on Jan 30th, 2006 at 7:01pm:
I think Mahle probably intended to indicate that information that came out of the polygraph interview was utilized in reaching a negative finding during adjudication.   Just an opinion...


No. She didn't indicate that it was the necessarily the applicants' admissions that disqualified them. No doubt, some applicants do make disqualifying admissions during the polygraph. But others don't. In Mahle's assessment, "the security disqualification rate is outside the bounds of reasonable assessment."
  

George W. Maschke
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box herdman14
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #4 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 9:31pm
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I'm just curious as to what your credentials are? What information are you basing your statements on? You're misinformed to think people are disqualified on calls alone. They are not. Yes, the vast majority of people are disapproved because of the polygraph, but not because of their calls, only the information they provide can be used to make a decision on their case. Would you like national security to depend on a background investigation and a records check? And you're not helping your case by quoting an agency recruiter, she is not a security officer and has nothing to do with the clearance process.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #5 - Jan 30th, 2006 at 11:07pm
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herdman14,

Regarding my credentials, I'm former active duty U.S. Army interrogator and military intelligence reserve officer. You can read more about my background and how I came to my current positions regarding polygraphy here:

http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-003.shtml

I well understand that in DoD, DOE, and no doubt elsewhere in government, once an employee has been hired and granted a security clearance, that clearance may not be revoked based on polygraph chart readings alone. But I also know from multiple sources that applicants to the CIA, NSA, FBI, U.S. Secret Service, DEA, and other agencies that require pre-employment polygraph screening may be denied employment based on polygraph results alone, even in the absence of any disqualifying admissions.

And yes, I would like to see national security vetting depend on thorough background investigations and record checks, and not on pseudoscience such as polygraphy. Reliance on unreliable polygraphs actually undermines national security rather than strengthening it. The value of any admissions obtained by means of the polygraph must be weighed against the negative utility associated with relying on an inherently unreliable procedure. But security managers rarely consider this negative utility. For more in this regard, see Chapters 1 and 2 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

I find your suggestion that Mahle's obsevervations on CIA polygraph policy should somehow be discounted because "she is not security officer and has nothing to do with the clearance process" unpersuasive. As a recruiter, she needn't have been a security officer to have gained an understanding of CIA hiring practices, including applicant vetting, and the extent to which polygraph results are relied upon.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #6 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:31am
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You're statement,"But I also know from multiple sources that applicants to the CIA, NSA, FBI, U.S. Secret Service, DEA, and other agencies that require pre-employment polygraph screening may be denied employment based on polygraph results alone, even in the absence of any disqualifying admissions" is false.  I don't need to rely on sources. I worked there and know how it works. You obviously do not. 
You're next statement, "As a recruiter, she needn't have been a security officer to have gained an understanding of CIA hiring practices, including applicant vetting, and the extent to which polygraph results are relied upon," is as asinine as the first. The polygraph has nothing to do with the hiring process. It has to do with the clearance process. It's a security procedure. 
You're whole argument against the polygraph and your whole website for that matter is based on hearsay and nothing more. Furthermore, you have about as much expertise in the polygraph as I have in building moon rockets.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #7 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:37am
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herdman14,

Are you saying that if a CIA applicant makes no disqualifying admission(s), then a failed polygraph will not result in denial of a security clearance and hence, employment?
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box herdman14
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #8 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:41am
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As long as the BI and NACs are favorable, yes. A subject can not be disapproved on the calls alone. The poly is a tool, just like the BI, NAC, credit report and SF-86.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #9 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:53am
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herdman14,

Thank you for the clarification. What you're saying is consistent with my understanding of DoD practices, but not the CIA's with regard to applicants for Agency employment. Could you direct me to any published policy or regulation in this regard?
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #10 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 1:29am
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It's in the adjudications manual handed out to all new adjudicators. Unfortunately it's classified, and since I'm not longer a staff security officer, I no longer have access to this.
  
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #11 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 5:10am
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herdman14,

It seems the only one who is misinformed around here is you.  FBI applicants who don't pass their polygraphs without making admissions NEVER make it to the background investigation and adjudication processes. Failed polygraph results are most certainly held against them as their conditional employment offers are rescinded based solely on "not within acceptable parameters." Just because the rules are one way in the agency you dealt with doesn't mean they're the same everywhere, so why the generalizations and hostility? You say you're no longer in the adjudication business? What do you do for a living, now? Hmmm...Let me guess.....
  
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #12 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 8:16am
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Herdman,

Um, it sounds like you are the one crying. Listen to tone of your posts. You are an angry, hurt -- and frightened man. Or do you always carry yourself about in such a state of emotional disrepair?

Yes, frightened, because you came across this site and saw all that you had believed in challenged, and I dare say, challenged quite compellingly by those who have posted about their polygraph experiences.

A message board is not a lie detector, but the levels of stress reactions I am reading off your posts tell me that your career and life are built on lies.

I'd say you are showing quite a SIGNIFICANT PHYSIOLOGICAL RESPONSE to what you are reading here.

You pull the standard spook cloak and dagger crap: everyone here is SOOOOO uninformed -- yet you then tell us your magical wizard books are CLASSIFIED!

Mr. Herdie, you live in closed world of security sycophants and you just cannot handle it to see your precious world view torn down and destroyed by what you read herein.

After all, a herd is a pack, and lies come in packs.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #13 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 7:37pm
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Quote:
I've been reading some of the crap posted on this website and all I see are a bunch of uninformed babies crying about their polygraph experience. Having been an adjudicator of security clearances for a number of years, I can say that you people have no idea what you are talking about. First off, there are 4 different calls SPR (significant physiological response), NSPR (no significant physiological response), Inconclusive (meaning they couldnt get a good read), and Incomplete (meaning they didnt get to, or didnt finish the question). The polygraph machine is 100% accurate. All it does is measures physiological responses. That's it! It's not a lie detector, it's just a machine that measures physiological reactions. That being said, I can't speak on behalf off all agencies but the CIA does not tell you whether you passed or failed. So, anyone who claims they have would be lying. I read one man's personal statement that stated "If I had access to a video recording of my polygraph examination, I could simply sit back, hit the Play button, and let the wheels of justice turn," well genius, if you felt you were treated unfairly, why didn't you complain to your company security officer, who could then file a former complaint against the polygrapher? Then the tape would be reviewed to corroborate what your saying is true. It's amazing the number of feel sorry for me stories I've read on here. I happen to be the Personnel Security Manager for a large defense contractor and I have not had one person ask to file a complaint. Also, I wouldn't get too hung up on the calls of SPR and NSPR, if you bother to read the DCID 6/4 guidelines, you won't find in them anywhere were it states the calls can be used against you. It's only what you admit in your session. I could spend the rest of the day ripping holes in the statements that have been made on this website, but I have better things to do than read sob stories.


Firstly, I can tell you that I was denied further processing due to an unfavorable polygraph result for a local PD.  Secondly, all complaints I initiated seemed to  garner little interest among the particular agency and the state's polygraph association.  The examiner was shielded by departmental policy of releasing no information to third parties.

That being said, I invite you to attempt to rip a hole in my story.  In the end you will find only one hole, the one between your ears.
  
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Re: Cry me a river
Reply #14 - Jan 31st, 2006 at 9:54pm
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Me too.  I didn't get a position with the FBI because according to them, I "failed" the polygraph.  My offer was rescinded.  That was the only reason the FBI gave me - because I did not fall within the range of their acceptable "polygraphic" parameters.  Undecided
  
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Cry me a river

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