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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (Read 56567 times)
nopolycop
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #45 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 1:05pm
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TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:45am:
 nopolycop,
 That my experiences are different than yours is what this board is all about as the moderator would have us provide a macro view of who is out there, and what their polygraph experience(s) are.  Where we differ is only that you and others seek to ban all of this


NoLieGuy:

You are assuming too much when it comes to motives.  I seriously doubt if any career LEO would call for the total abandonment of polygraph procedure.  I certainly don't, the procedure has it's place.  But, that place is not in pre-employment for civilian law enforcement, WHEN it is used as the break-point for whether a person gets a job or not.  It is simply too inaccurate for that purpose.  I haven't formed an opinion as whether or not it should be used as a fact finding tool for LEO screening,  I am conflicted about that.

I do know my own experiences though, and what I have read here and elsewhere.  American citizens deserve more than being branded as being dishonest when they are routinely called such by trade school graduates.  Polygraph errors effect people long term, not just for that one particular job where the false positive occured.  In any BI packet, it is always asked if they have taken a polygraph before, and what those results are.  If one states they failed a previous one, they are assumed to be a liar from the beginning, and likely will fail the next one too.  Gotta go, time is money.


  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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notguilty1
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #46 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 2:57pm
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nopolycop wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 1:05pm:
TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:45am:
 nopolycop,
 That my experiences are different than yours is what this board is all about as the moderator would have us provide a macro view of who is out there, and what their polygraph experience(s) are.  Where we differ is only that you and others seek to ban all of this


NoLieGuy:

You are assuming too much when it comes to motives.  I seriously doubt if any career LEO would call for the total abandonment of polygraph procedure.  I certainly don't, the procedure has it's place.  But, that place is not in pre-employment for civilian law enforcement, WHEN it is used as the break-point for whether a person gets a job or not.  It is simply too inaccurate for that purpose.  I haven't formed an opinion as whether or not it should be used as a fact finding tool for LEO screening,  I am conflicted about that.

I do know my own experiences though, and what I have read here and elsewhere.  American citizens deserve more than being branded as being dishonest when they are routinely called such by trade school graduates.  Polygraph errors effect people long term, not just for that one particular job where the false positive occured.  In any BI packet, it is always asked if they have taken a polygraph before, and what those results are.  If one states they failed a previous one, they are assumed to be a liar from the beginning, and likely will fail the next one too.  Gotta go, time is money.





If it is "too inaccurate for that"  why would it be accurate enough in any situation??
The fact that a false positive follows you forever is real ( even though Sackett think it's just whinning ) for this reason it is iportant to stop the use of these unscientific "tests".
  
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Twoblock
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #47 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:21pm
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TheNoLieGuy4U

I now believe I understand your fixation on belittleing George and I feel compelled to give you the benefit of my experience.

In '96 I had a stroke affecting my left side. It caused a fixation of hating and belittleing cops even though I aspired to be one at an early age. Strokes are very debilitating both phsysically and mentally. What I am about to say is intended to help you not to be derogatory and it is very difficult and takes a great deal if intestinal fortitude to accomplish.

First, someone has to realize that the stroke affects one's rational thinking. The victem will not recognize it and strongly denies that there is a mental change taking place. Fortunately, I have a very intelligent wife who recognized the change starting to take place in my thinking process and got me professional help. With medication and mental exercise I started returning to my old self. At that point I started realizing my physical impairment and made the determination that I was not going through life crippled. I hit the gym and started pumping iron. Now I was doing strong mental and physical exercises. I can't explain the pain except to say horrible. The people who knew my fighting spirit had confidense that I would overcome and I did. In about 3 years my left side was as good as my right if not better. At 77 I still pump iron. Can't attest to my mental abilities. Not that I economically need to, I still do hard labor at my mine. People tell me that I live to work. I say no, I work to live.

I just wanted to give you the benefit of my experience. How you take it is up to you.

Good luck in your recovery.
  
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nopolycop
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #48 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:28pm
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notguilty1 wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 2:57pm:
nopolycop wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 1:05pm:
TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:45am:
 nopolycop,
 That my experiences are different than yours is what this board is all about as the moderator would have us provide a macro view of who is out there, and what their polygraph experience(s) are.  Where we differ is only that you and others seek to ban all of this


NoLieGuy:

You are assuming too much when it comes to motives.  I seriously doubt if any career LEO would call for the total abandonment of polygraph procedure.  I certainly don't, the procedure has it's place.  But, that place is not in pre-employment for civilian law enforcement, WHEN it is used as the break-point for whether a person gets a job or not.  It is simply too inaccurate for that purpose.  I haven't formed an opinion as whether or not it should be used as a fact finding tool for LEO screening,  I am conflicted about that.

I do know my own experiences though, and what I have read here and elsewhere.  American citizens deserve more than being branded as being dishonest when they are routinely called such by trade school graduates.  Polygraph errors effect people long term, not just for that one particular job where the false positive occured.  In any BI packet, it is always asked if they have taken a polygraph before, and what those results are.  If one states they failed a previous one, they are assumed to be a liar from the beginning, and likely will fail the next one too.  Gotta go, time is money.





If it is "too inaccurate for that"  why would it be accurate enough in any situation??
The fact that a false positive follows you forever is real ( even though Sackett think it's just whinning ) for this reason it is iportant to stop the use of these unscientific "tests".


Because, I feel all sex offenders should be doing their full sentance anyway.  when they are released early, with restrictions such as taking polygraphs, that's better than nothing.  Frankly, sex offenders should be locked up and forgotten about.  so, using the poly on them is not a concern of mine, waterboarding should be allowed too.

As far as criminal investigations, if there is already reasonable suspicion that the person committed the crime, and that person wants to take a polygraph to clear his name, then that is okay.  But, the LE agency should not automatically take this at faith value, but continue to investigate, simply using the passed polygraph another piece of evidence.  Conversly, because someone fails a polygraph, that doesn't mean the LE Agency stops looking for other suspects.  it is just another piece of evidence.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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notguilty1
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #49 - Mar 14th, 2008 at 11:07pm
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nopolycop wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:28pm:
notguilty1 wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 2:57pm:
nopolycop wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 1:05pm:
TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 14th, 2008 at 3:45am:
 nopolycop,
 That my experiences are different than yours is what this board is all about as the moderator would have us provide a macro view of who is out there, and what their polygraph experience(s) are.  Where we differ is only that you and others seek to ban all of this


NoLieGuy:

You are assuming too much when it comes to motives.  I seriously doubt if any career LEO would call for the total abandonment of polygraph procedure.  I certainly don't, the procedure has it's place.  But, that place is not in pre-employment for civilian law enforcement, WHEN it is used as the break-point for whether a person gets a job or not.  It is simply too inaccurate for that purpose.  I haven't formed an opinion as whether or not it should be used as a fact finding tool for LEO screening,  I am conflicted about that.

I do know my own experiences though, and what I have read here and elsewhere.  American citizens deserve more than being branded as being dishonest when they are routinely called such by trade school graduates.  Polygraph errors effect people long term, not just for that one particular job where the false positive occured.  In any BI packet, it is always asked if they have taken a polygraph before, and what those results are.  If one states they failed a previous one, they are assumed to be a liar from the beginning, and likely will fail the next one too.  Gotta go, time is money.





If it is "too inaccurate for that"  why would it be accurate enough in any situation??
The fact that a false positive follows you forever is real ( even though Sackett think it's just whinning ) for this reason it is iportant to stop the use of these unscientific "tests".


Because, I feel all sex offenders should be doing their full sentance anyway.  when they are released early, with restrictions such as taking polygraphs, that's better than nothing.  Frankly, sex offenders should be locked up and forgotten about.  so, using the poly on them is not a concern of mine, waterboarding should be allowed too.

As far as criminal investigations, if there is already reasonable suspicion that the person committed the crime, and that person wants to take a polygraph to clear his name, then that is okay.  But, the LE agency should not automatically take this at faith value, but continue to investigate, simply using the passed polygraph another piece of evidence.  Conversly, because someone fails a polygraph, that doesn't mean the LE Agency stops looking for other suspects.  it is just another piece of evidence.

Hi Nonpoly
I agree about sex offenders I would throw the key away too.
My concern is that using poly's even on them is a waste cause the results cannot be relied on.
Same holds true in a criminal investigation. Unless the threat of a poly can yeild a  cofirmed confession then .... if the results cannot be relied on to show guilt or not then why do them? And if the results are not admissable in court then are the results really "evidence"?
  
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T.M. Cullen
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #50 - Mar 15th, 2008 at 4:42am
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A stroke is a serious thing.  My uncle Jim had one a couple years before he died and was incoherent.

This might well be the reason for "thenolieguy"s  lack of judgement and cogent thought.  All due respect intended.
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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TheNoLieGuy4U
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #51 - Mar 15th, 2008 at 7:31am
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     Hi T.M.,

  No lack of judgement here !!!  I have recovered and one might say that by contribution I have put my two cents, or perhaps two bits in here.  Most things in life for me are pretty black and white, as they are for you. 

  Regarding Al-Queda, has anybody heard about examiner progress in Cuba ?  I have every confidence that most Al-Queda or other Islamic terrorist groups would not absorb the CM materials, and are tested with success, as I believe most break in captivity and want a "deal".  What do you think ?
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #52 - Mar 15th, 2008 at 2:27pm
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TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 15th, 2008 at 7:31am:
   

   I have every confidence that most Al-Queda or other Islamic terrorist groups would not absorb the CM materials, and are tested with success, as I believe most break in captivity and want a "deal".  What do you think ?


According to others  here, CM's don't work anyway, so why does it matter if the 'absorb" them or not? In fact, we are led to believe that it is easy to catch people using CM's, so wouldn't it be a good thing if Al-Queda operatives attempted to employ CM's as explained in this site?
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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TheNoLieGuy4U
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #53 - Mar 16th, 2008 at 4:58am
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   Hi,

  Al Queda will do what they will and they are not my concern directly; rather what WE do is of concern to me when there is a fifth collum effort to directly or indirectly assist them, and particulary by an American citizen; and most especially by a former Intel Officer.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #54 - Mar 16th, 2008 at 2:22pm
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TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 16th, 2008 at 4:58am:
  Hi,

 Al Queda will do what they will and they are not my concern directly; rather what WE do is of concern to me when there is a fifth collum effort to directly or indirectly assist them, and particulary by an American citizen; and most especially by a former Intel Officer.


NLG4U

Okay, let's try a couple more direct questions.

Do you believe counter-measures CAN work in a Control Question Test?

Do you believe that counter-measures are effectively discovered the vast majority of the time?
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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TheNoLieGuy4U
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #55 - Mar 16th, 2008 at 3:33pm
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NLG4U

Okay, let's try a couple more direct questions.

Do you believe counter-measures CAN work in a Control Question Test?

Do you believe that counter-measures are effectively discovered the vast majority of the time?


My answer to the utility of the CM countermeasure question attempts are best represented in my Three Musketeers submission.  To clarify, I would say that I believe you have no way of really tracking this successes you claim.  Most of the posters here are from those who DID NOT get the job, or any successive job with a poly test.  That group is talking, but only talking about what they DID NOT achieve.  Second, those who used CM's, but perhaps too little, made no difference in the outcome.  Those who used too much stood out as physical countermeasures are detectable, and mental countermeasures are being picked up via the measure of what is known as "Drift".  Again, none of this is perfect, but we all agree technology only gets better with time. 

  You ask then, what about those who did CM's just right ?  Well in regard to an applicant, they may not have passed their overall background, or may have been out competed by another applicant, or simply not worked out in the special cultures they would have to adapt to.  There really is no way of tracking this for your benefit, as the agencies are not talking to you, and those caught do not report this on this site.  What I believe is that if you go into a polygraph test with a deceptive practice in mind that this is then a contant variable, and will show in the overall micro question, or macro test, or otherwise in the greater background. 

The mindset recommended here is not much different than the kid in grade school who was a smart kid with a flawed personality who tried to influence those not as sharp to cheat.  When they were caught could the smart kid really expect not to be punished when he said to the school authority "I was only trying to help" ?   Ofcourse not, he would be appropriately spanked.  Same said for the others.  All Brats.
  
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TheNoLieGuy4U
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #56 - Mar 16th, 2008 at 3:52pm
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         NoPolyCop,

    Your position would seem to be quite different from the moderator.  Perhaps that is because you have seen a bit as an LEO of specific issue cases solved, but object to the use in the P.E. setting based on an examiner with a bad personality you met.  It seems you allow for the reality that there are some good examiners (no different than good cops / and bad cops), and that there are those employed who want to provide your department with no less than the best applicant for the few jobs  ie; the best use of the tax payers money. 

   The polygraph records what it says it records in each respective channel.  It can not both work and not work at the same time.  Such tests take place when properly done in an environment free of artificial stimulation (noises, disruptions).  Your attempt to self stimulate to create a new reality simply causes an unknown variable which either is too weak when poorly done, too aggressive causing charts out of the norm and rejected.  or even if done right does not have a way to be tracked as I have seen so very few posters here who claim this, rather I / we read about those who either failed a test, or are not reapplying (Quitters).  Therefore your arguments REALLY traces back to the human element of all of this or testing environment, and not the device itself.  By the way, I have a problem with my toaster.  Sometimes despite my hunger being a constant every morning, sometimes the toast is a bit light, and on other days it is a bit dark.  Rarely, it is perfect, but I live with it and move on with my day.   I would not be so obsessed to start a website like    Anti-Toaster.com 

  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #57 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 1:42am
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    Hi Folks,

  There seems to be a recurring mantra given birth from some simpleton's mind that must be dealt with intellectually.  Some Anti-Poly fans say if CM's don't work anyway, then what is the problem.  Answer:  ATTEMPTS COUNT !!!  and so many otherwise deserving young folks who are in desperate short supply to enter law enforcement take the advice here, and the ATTEMPT to deceive can ONLY be perceived as a lie, and not rewarded. 

  So then, if CM's did work as the moderator suggested, why so many folks on this website who have not fulfilled their dreams via working for some agency or the other as those who have, as claimed, a clean background could easily reapply.  Agencies are desperately short handed putting the numbers on your side as quite often standards have been lowered. 

  Therefore, how many of you, well intended, employed counter measures as a follower of the moderator, and were either passed over when not told your CM's were detected, or were confronted; and otherwise could have had a job.  I would begin to wonder if a favor was done for you, or you took bad advice which got you nothing. 

  Your motivation was to come to this site for answers.  They may not be the answers you wanted to hear, but you must seperate out someone's theories and feelings, or preferences about the way they would like the world to be from reality.  Most governments are quite pragmatic in their approaches with ofcourse budget concerns.  That some don't like the way things are done, is quite different from the way it must get done.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #58 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 3:11am
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TheNoLieGuy4U

It is an unfortunate fact that the standards of this country have been lowered, and still in a downward trend, in every arena i.e. academics, morality, legislative and all kinds of government agencies. It's abominable that any LE agency would lower their standard in order to put a body behind a badge. These lower standards in charge of protecting us!!!?  Are you saying agencies like the FBI and CIA has lowered their standards? Then why are they not hiring but small percentages of their applicants? Is it due to the fact the applicants can't meet the lower standards or are you attributing it to this website? Actually it seems the latter which is pure fallacy. It appears that this website has put such a burr under your saddle that it has blinded you to the more serious problems facing our nation.

I have been trying for many years to upgrade our standards or at least hold them to status quo. I get a lot of complainers but very little help. With your experience in government work, why don't you turn your energy toward raising the standards of this country instead of continually bashing George and this website with the same old rhetoric day in and day out with not a chance of changing anyone's mind. This site, as you polygraphers say of the polygraph, is not going away any time soon no matter how hard you try. So come on. Turn your energies to useful endevors. As you say, be constructive and quit trying to be destructive.
  
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Re: Al-Qaeda Has Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
Reply #59 - Mar 17th, 2008 at 6:17am
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         TwoBlock,

   We agree that it is unfortunate that standards should not be lowered. It is a mathamatical fact that since the pill came into effect that couples simply aren't having as many children in this generation from which we choose future employees now ie; the post Vietnam war era youth.   My statements are that I have observed that few are available from which the agencies you mentioned can choose from, which answers your question about their hiring so few of the applicants that come through the door. AND Yes, many of the applicants can't even meet the lower standards as well.  There is no burr under my saddle, as my horse is in a comfortable pasture. 

You say:  I have been trying for many years to upgrade our standards or at least hold them to status quo. I get a lot of complainers but very little help. With your experience in government work, why don't you turn your energy toward raising the standards of this country instead of continually bashing George and this website with the same old rhetoric day in and day out with not a chance of changing anyone's mind.

  I wonder in what way you have tried to upgrade standards, as your efforts in either trying to eliminate polygraph or if in league with those who encourage the use of CM's don't speak to that.  It is only because I have held the standards high that I stand out here among the few.  What you call the same old rhetoric is only a messege you can't absorb, fail to recognize, or won't submit to.  Good Men and Women conduct polygraph tests everyday.  They do so not as the oddballs of the forensic community, but rather having talents in both the right and left brain capacities.  They derive great satisfaction in both being in the foundational efforts of helping those who come prepared to be truthful for an easy hiring decision on their part (and they need not be perfect), or screening out those who would hide those elements of their background (rationalization, outright withholding, false information, etc.).  They are not in a popularity contest and don't care that you like them or don't like them, and only that the job get done right.  Like any human being they have both good days and bad days.  From what I read here you folks have tried to demonize them and their instrumentation as if they are not trying to help you actually get the job / meet their agencies needs. 

  When I speak of lower standards ask yourself this.  If you had an Uncle who was a nuclear scientist who had weapons grade uranium knowledge.  He was trusted in his community to keep that knowledge safe from those who would do this nation harm, but then was found to be assisting the Iranians now with their intelligence program to build weapons to either harm us or our allies; how would you feel about him then.  Would you continue to claim him in your family ?  Would you want his lowering of the standards of conduct of someone in his former position to be preserved and just glossed over.  I don't think so.  I am contructively trying to wipe clear the glass from which you look at this issue and this man who carries a torch of treachery.  There is nothing destructive about my writings to you, as I only want to preserve standards as you do, and I simply want you to acknowledge that government is working with the best tools it has, and in this time frame we live in part of that process is with the polygraph.  Logic dictates when that capability is surpassed, the newer tool would be used.  We are not going backwards, and just rolling the dice because applicants say "trust me".
  
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