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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #30 - Jan 16th, 2006 at 7:42am
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nonombre wrote on Jan 16th, 2006 at 12:21am:


 My federal polygraph examiner friends tell me that a number of years ago, there was a federal study conducted that compared the results of Army crime lab analysis with Army CID polygraph results.  The end result (as I am told) was there was not a single case where the polygraph results disagreed with the crime lab results (fingerprints, ballistics, etc).  These polygraph exams were conducted in virtually every case prior to the crime lab results being reported.  Therefore there was no way the polygraph examiners could have know then laboratory outcomes.  If true, this 100% correlation would seem to be a testament to polygraph accuracy.

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the study, but I have been told the study was conducted in the 1980s by two guys named Light and Schwartz.

Regards,

Nonombre



Found the study:

http://www.dodpi.army.mil/docs/research/93r0001.htm

Obviously highly referenced by the DODPI.  Key note at the bottom of the overview. 

Although this line of research is important to improving the public's image of FP, it is not a high priority for the Department of Defense Institute's research mission and will not likely be followed up by Institute personnel. However, it is anticipated that some of the field practitioners, upon reading this report, might pursue additional studies

The other comments were,  yes it is impressive on its capibilities, but too expensive and too hard to implement. The report is actually posted on DTIC. And I have downloaded it and read it. 

It is highly suspect as it was written and researched by polygraphers for polygraphers. Valid research in never done by nepotism.  And I would never consider research unless validated by a real research institution. DODPI is not a research institution. Accredited by ACICS, lets see ITT Tech and other various trade schools have this accreditation.  Real universities wouldn't even accept those credentials.  Its an interesting read, but again suspect, as it tries to improve the image of forensic polygraphy with alot of numbers and statistics. But the thing to note, the percentages are always less than 90 %. No accuracy what so ever.

Added download link

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA300302&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pd...

Thats my review .... 

Regards 

« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2006 at 7:02am by EosJupiter »  

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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #31 - Jan 16th, 2006 at 10:32am
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Nonombre,
What a clown you are. I stand by everything I said:

Faced with impending execution, and with my life depending on someone else's interpretation of some squiggly lines, I'd probably "fail" a "lie detector test" as well.

Mmmm, yup.
 
"The[y] state that Coleman 'failed,' the 'test' as if that somehow conclusively proves his guilt."  Well, Allegedliar, I guess in this case, it looks like polygraph did just that.
 
Nonombre, the polygraph no more proves this man a murderer than spraying water from a garden hose proves it's raining. Follow?

I believe it is you who are filled with glee, and not a little schadenfreude too.

The point of my original post was to point out the lack of skepticism on the part of the press when invoking this man's polygraph test as proof of his guilt. Ever heard of Wen Ho Lee?

Now, as far as trashing the "good name" of any polygrapher, none of them have any good name in my book. You are all already trash in my opinion.

Provided the information, I will out any polygrapher's sorry ass any day of the week. Try me.

You all had so much to say.  You all spoke with such authority...

Indeed, I will always have much more to say on this topic, as long as bozos like Nonombre -- more like Nobrain -- populate this board. Yes, I speak with moral authority.

Nonombre, my friend, you speak out your ass.
  
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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #32 - Jan 17th, 2006 at 4:59am
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Nonombre,

SOME RESEARCH FOR YOUR PERUSAL.

The truth is polygraphs lie

Steve Chapman, Washington Times

In May 1978, four men were arrested by Chicago police for murdering a suburban man and raping and murdering his fiancee. All the suspects claimed they were innocent, but there was no real doubt about their guilt: Three of them, after all, had failed a polygraph exam.

Eventually, the Ford Heights Four, as they became known, were convicted for these brutal slayings, and two of the defendants were sentenced to death. But in 1996, DNA evidence exonerated all four. They had spent 18 years behind bars, partly because the lie detector lied.

A report issued last week by the National Academy of Sciences recommended that the federal government stop using polygraphs to screen for security risks. Why? Because, in the words of the study, these devices are “intrinsically susceptible to producing erroneous results.” That’s academese for “I wouldn’t trust one as far as I could throw it.”

The Energy Department adopted polygraph screening of employees in response to the case of Wen Ho Lee, a scientist accused of spying for China but convicted of only a minor security violation. DOE now tests about 2,000 people a year. But George Mason University systems engineering professor Kathryn Laskey, a member of the NAS committee, noted, “No spy has ever been caught using the polygraph.”

There are particular dangers in subjecting lots of people to polygraphs in the effort to find a few wrongdoers, because false positives will greatly outnumber “true” positives. Some employees who have done nothing wrong will nonetheless have physiological reactions that look suspicious. Some accomplished liars will be able to fool the machine.

To nab 8 out of every 10 real spies, the NAS report found, the device would probably have to erroneously implicate nearly 1,600 people. If it were set to minimize false positives, 80 percent of the real spies would slip past. But even then, 20 innocent people would be flagged for every guilty one.

The same fallibility that renders these machines unusable for employee monitoring makes them dangerous for criminal investigations as well. Police and prosecutors regard polygraph results as the closest thing to a dead-bang certainty. But that faith lacks any foundation. “Almost a century of research in scientific psychology and physiology provides little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy,” concluded the panel.

And there is no reason to think better technology will help. People simply don’t respond in a clear and predictable way to questions about what they may have done wrong. The “inherent ambiguity of the physiological measures used in the polygraph suggest that further investments in improving polygraph technique and interpretation will bring only modest improvements in accuracy,” said the report. Polygraphs are a crude instrument that can’t be refined.

The consequences of a misleading polygraph exam are bad enough in the employment arena, where someone can lose a job or not be hired. But they’re much worse for criminal suspects, who can be locked away or even put to death because their pulse rate rose too much in a stressful situation.

A polygraph result generally can’t be used as evidence in court. But some states allow the information if both the prosecution and the defense concur. So prosecutors may offer suspects the opportunity to clear themselves. Innocent suspects sometimes feel they have nothing to lose and much to gain from going along — only to fail the test.

A couple of weeks ago, one Jimmy Williams was officially cleared by an Ohio court after spending 10 years in prison for the alleged rape of a 12-year-old girl. In fact, the rape never happened, but the Akron man nonetheless managed to fail a polygraph exam. Because his lawyer had agreed in advance to admit the results, the jury was told the lie detector had implicated him.

Other defendants have been victimized not only by the polygraph itself but by its aura of infallibility. Gary Gauger was sentenced to death for the murder of his parents on their McHenry County, Ill., farm but was eventually exonerated. He took a polygraph during his interrogation, and the results were inconclusive. But the police told him he had failed it.

He was so rattled by the news that the cops were able to get him to speculate aloud how he might have killed his parents. Those statements were then used to convict him of a crime he never committed.

Our medieval forebears had their own lie detector test: Suspected witches were dunked in water, on the theory that the guilty would float and the innocent would sink. Polygraphs aren’t quite as preposterous, but they’re bad enough.




  
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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #33 - Jan 17th, 2006 at 5:13am
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polyfool wrote on Jan 17th, 2006 at 5:08am:
NONOMBRE,
 
ADDITIONAL READING MATERIAL: Please note the last line in the story. Seems I'm not the only one who feels this way about DNA.
 
A True Confession?

Feb. 29, 2004
Abdallah Higazy, a 30-year-old student from Cairo, was arrested as a material witness for the 9/11 investigation.  (CBS)

Quote

"Given the choice between two evils, you will absolutely choose the lesser. It was either I go to prison, or I go to prison and something happens to my family. So I chose I go to prison."
Abdallah Higazy
     
(CBS) In criminal court, a signed confession from the accused is practically a guarantee of a guilty verdict. But in the age of DNA, we have a more reliable test of guilt.

As a result, scores of innocent people have been released from prison, including people who had actually admitted to the crime -- shaking a widely held belief that only the guilty confess.

How could someone possibly admit to a crime he did not commit? He could if he was subjected to today's highly developed interrogation techniques -- so effective that even the innocent can succumb.

If you're convinced you'd never crack, take a look at the case of Abdallah Higazy, a 30-year-old student from Cairo who came to the United States in late summer of 2001. Correspondent Morley Safer reports. On the morning of Sept. 11, Higazy was asleep in a room that had been assigned to him at the Millennium Hilton in downtown Manhattan, right across the street from the World Trade Center.

“I'm in my bed and all of a sudden I heard a sonic boom and the hotel shaking,” says Higazy, who had a scholarship to study computer engineering at Brooklyn's Polytechnic University. “The first thing that crossed my head was, ‘Oh, God, please don't make it a terrorist attack.’ That was the first thing that crossed my mind.”

The Hilton was evacuated and he made his way out of Manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge, along with thousands of New Yorkers trying to escape the carnage. Months later, when he was finally told he could come to the hotel to retrieve his belongings, he was asked to verify a list of contents found in his room.

“And the second subject on the list just caught my eye: radio scanner. I said, ‘Excuse me, sir. This isn't mine,’” recalls Higazy. “Three gentlemen in suits walk up to me and said, ‘Excuse me, sir. My name is Agent so-and-so from the FBI. Would you mind answering a few questions?’"

The FBI agents asked Higazy about an aviation transceiver that they said was found locked in the safe of his room on top of a copy of the Koran. It was a radio that could have been used to communicate with the terrorists on the doomed aircraft.

“Just hearing that scared the living daylights out of me,” says Higazy. “It could have been used … All I could say was, ‘The device is not mine. I never saw it before. I don’t know anything about it.’ They told me, ‘We’re sorry, but we’re putting you under arrest.’”

Higazy was arrested as a material witness for the 9/11 investigation. He was read his rights and taken to the New York headquarters of the FBI, where he was questioned. He offered to take a lie detector test. So after 10 days in solitary confinement, an FBI agent arrived and hooked him up to the polygraph.

“All I said was, ‘I'm just gonna say the truth. And this device is gonna show him that I am saying the truth.’ Unfortunately, the agent threatened me,” says Higazy. “He said it like this: ‘If you do not cooperate, the FBI will make your brother upstate live in scrutiny. And we'll make sure Egyptian security gives your family hell.’ That's exactly how he said it.” The FBI would not discuss the case. An internal investigation into Higazy's allegations concluded there was no evidence the agent had acted improperly.

As the polygraph continued, Higazy says, he began to panic: “I just couldn't breathe. I could hear my heart beat in my head. I started saying, ‘OK, the options are if I say I don't know anything about this device, I'm screwed and so is my family. If I say I know something about the device, it'll be I lied, I'm screwed, but at least my family will be safe.’ And I said, ‘OK, the device is mine.’"

The FBI had its confession, and Higazy spent three more weeks in solitary confinement. He was preparing for a court appearance with a court-appointed lawyer when he was led to an office where, to his amazement, he was told: "You could leave now."

“I said, ‘I'm sorry?’ He said, ‘You could leave now. You were the guy with the radio?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘The real owner came and asked for the radio,’” recalls Higazy.

It turned out the radio did not belong to Higazy. It belonged to a pilot who was also staying at the hotel on Sept 11. When the pilot went to retrieve his belongings, the FBI realized they had the wrong man. A hotel security guard later admitted he lied about finding the radio in the safe in Higazy's room.

Higazy is now suing the hotel, members of its staff, and the FBI agent he says threatened him.

But how could he have confessed to something that he didn’t do? “Given the choice between two evils, you will absolutely choose the lesser,” says Higazy. “It was either I go to prison, or I go to prison and something happens to my family. So I chose I go to prison.”

“The No. 1 reason people give false confessions is because they've been threatened in some way,” says Joe Buckley, president of John E. Reid and Associates, a company that teaches interviewing and interrogation techniques to police officers and federal agents.

Buckley, who is familiar with the Higazy case, says that if the FBI agent threatened Higazy, then it was illegal: “The courts have said you cannot threaten someone's family. You cannot threaten to put their spouse in jail if you don't just tell us the truth kind of thing. Those are things the courts have said are improper.”

Steven Drizin, a law professor at Northwestern University, is one of the country's leading experts on false confessions. He says even some legal interrogation techniques can elicit false confessions from innocent suspects.

“You have to understand today's psychological interrogation techniques. And the kinds of pressure that can be brought on a suspect that is legal in many instances, so that it makes it rational, even for an innocent person, to confess to a crime he didn't commit … whether it’s true or not,” says Drizin. That's what Jorge Hernandez says happened in his case. In July of 2002, Hernandez became a suspect in a particularly brutal assault and rape of a 94-year-old woman in Palo Alto, Calif.

Hernandez was questioned because he lived near the victim and because a ring that had once belonged to his brother was found at the scene of the crime. His brother had an alibi, so police focused on Hernandez.

When police asked him what he was doing the night of the rape, he said he couldn't remember: “They were saying May 10. I was, like, ‘May 10, OK, that was months ago. I don't remember what I did on a specific day.’ So I kept saying, ‘I don't know. I don't know,’" recalls Hernandez.

Then, Hernandez says, police told him they found his fingerprints and other physical evidence that linked to him to the crime. He also claims that they suggested they had surveillance tape of him at the crime scene.

In a police tape, faced with all this "evidence," Hernandez says he began to question his own innocence during the interrogation: "I don't remember doing this, so it kind of seems, like, if you guys say you have my fingerprints and stuff like that. But if I did it, I really want to apologize to her."

“At that time, I was just, like, I didn’t know what to think,” says Hernandez, who admits he was doubting his own memory.

The police suggested to Hernandez that he might have had too much to drink that night – and that he might have blocked the assault from his memory. After hours of interrogations, Hernandez even comes to say that he might remember the apartment's sliding door: “I'm a curious guy, so I probably saw the sliding door opened or something and it attracted my attention.”

With Hernandez volunteering such information, police seemed convinced they had their man. But Hernandez says the police gave him two choices: confess now and they'll try to help him out, or don't confess and face a jury trial with all the evidence piled up against him.

Towards the end of the questioning, police get a semi-confession from Hernandez: “I'm going to be a man and I want to say that I was drunk, maybe. I was drunk, and I was under the influence of alcohol, and I just don't remember doing that. I probably did it and I just don't remember the next day doing it.”

In fact, as Hernandez later found out, the police lied. They did not have his fingerprints, nor did they have his DNA or the surveillance tapes they claimed implicated him in the crime. He was held in jail for three weeks until DNA testing eliminated him as the rapist. The charges were dropped and he was released.

The Palo Alto police department and the district attorney's office wouldn't comment on the ongoing investigation, except to say that no one -- including Hernandez -- had been eliminated as a suspect.

Attorney Randolph Daar is representing Hernandez in a lawsuit against the City of Palo Alto and members of its police department for conducting what he calls a coercive and unlawful interrogation.

“By telling Jorge, in essence, ‘We already know what happened. We already know you did it, so you only have two choices. Choice one is you go to trial, and we'll bury you with evidence. Or choice two is you tell us the truth and we're gonna get you some help,’” says Daar.

“That is clearly illegal. That is coercion. That's what produced a false confession here. I know most people out there say, ‘Gee, I wouldn't confess.’ It worked with him because he believes the cops, and he believes police don't lie. So it's only the face of that naiveté and sincere belief that they could begin to get him to question himself.”

But Buckley says police are allowed to lie about evidence to get at the truth: “According to the court, it's perfectly legal.”

Even if it may produce a false confession?

“Most innocent people, when you tell them, they say, ‘Hey, look pal. I don't care what you got. I wasn't there. I didn't do it. You ain't got no fingerprints on me. I wasn't even in the building. I had nothing to do with it,’” says Buckley. “And most innocent people throw that back in your face.”

In this case, Daar says, it was the combination of lies and what he says were unlawful offers to help Hernandez if he confessed that ultimately elicited the false confession.

“Half of it's [the interrogation is] recorded and half of it's not recorded. We only know for certain, besides Jorge's testimony about the lies and the coercion, because they are then repeated during the recorded part of the interrogation,” says Daar. Professor Drizin wants to see mandatory videotaping of all interrogations. But critics argue that it could interfere with an investigation, and that suspects might be less willing to confess with a camera in the room.

“I think it's the most important single reform in the criminal justice system,” says Drizen. “It’s [Resistance] starting to soften a little bit, because of all the false confessions that are surfacing. But there's terrific resistance.”

“Here we have a videotaped interrogation and still come up with a kind of false confession,” says Safer to Daar.

“But Jorge, at least if he had to face a jury some day on this terrible charge, would at least have a pictorial record of what happened. They're being coercive. They're lying," says Daar.

“I believe ordinary citizens, when looking at those kind of tactics in that context, are gonna reject the confession. They are not nearly as accurate as we are to believe. And thank God, the DNA's come along and at least opened our eyes and exploded these myths.”


© MMIV, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved.


INSIDE 60 Minutes

  
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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #34 - Jan 18th, 2006 at 7:04am
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Poly,

Great article .... 


Regards
  

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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #35 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 5:03am
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Thanks, Eos. I guess we won't hear from Nonombre for awhile. He'll probably just lurk around the site, waiting for another chance to lash out at those interested in engaging in fair debate.
  
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Re: Did Virginia execute an innocent man?
Reply #36 - Jan 19th, 2006 at 6:55am
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Poly,

I agree, real debate is only improved by opposing views, that are well thought out, based on fact, and not subject to emotion. I guess too many big guns on this board for our friend NoNombre. But he should expect to get hammered considering his stance and this boards announced reason for existing. But he is welcome to expound his views. I will give him a pat on the back for at least having the backbone to come on and express the opposition view point. Unlike alot of the polygraphers who sit in the shadows and read this board, and have no guts for open debate. I can respect opposition view points.

Regards ...
  

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