Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Baaad Feeling in my Stomach (Read 15496 times)
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Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Sep 26th, 2005 at 6:03pm
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Hello everybody...

I enjoy reading this forum and it is interesting to see who had what experience. I have a Polygraph in two weeks and I am glad that I do not have anything to hide. In my past I have smoked Pott (5-6) times (what a terrible experience) and I have taken office supplies/coins from a previous employer, but nothing major. 
I recognized that I am starting to get really really worried and stressed about my Poly.  I think about a "bad thing" I have done when I was a child (i.e. stole candybar in supermarket when I was 12) and my stomach cramps together and I feel a cold and hot wave go through my body. 
Wow, what is going on??? What if I have this feeling on my Poly Exam and the thing goes nuts on me? I bet my body shows a enormous physical reaction whenever I feel those cramps/waves...
I know that the LE Agency wants me to tell the truth (what I will do) and like I meantioned earlier, I have nothing to hide but what is going on?
I also start feeling bad about things I have taken from my previous employer (office supplies, coinage). It was alltogether maybe $15 - $ 20 but I feel sooooo bad about it  Embarrassed

Thank you guys... Shrek
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #1 - Sep 27th, 2005 at 1:11am
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Thank you Cobra...
I wonder if attitude plays a role in the Exam, too. Can it influence the Polygrapher's decision to let one pass or fail? I think if somebody comes with a negative attitude to the Exam that he or she might be more likely to be failed, especially when it comes to Pre-Employment Exams. 
Is that possible?
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #2 - Sep 28th, 2005 at 2:51am
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Shrek,

Keep in mind that Dark Cobra is giving you advice based on how he conducts polygraph screening. Examiners can be very different from one another and bias could very well play a role in whether you pass or not. I don't think many examinees go into pre-employment screening situations with bad attitudes, after all, the applicant is trying to score a job and the interview process is in full swing. The fact that you are apprehensive may be a good thing. I was way too laid back about mine, thinking I had nothing to worry about since I had nothing to hide. 

Dark Cobra,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by following the examiner's lead? Do you mean that even though he may threaten Shrek with consequences for lying, he should hold back on divulging information when the examiner acts like certain behavior or actions would be considered horrible, thus keeping him from getting the job? What does it say about someone who is willing to withhold information and go along with anything an examiner says just to make himself look better in order to land a job? It seems the government would be better served by those individuals exhibiting a higher degree of courage and honor by being honest, despite the examiner's attempt to lead them down a path. That would seem like the kind of person not easily influenced by pressures and therefore, least likely to be a security risk.
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #3 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 4:45am
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Dark Cobra,

So, if an examinee doesn't follow the examiner's lead and answers his control questions truthfully is that seen as being uncooperative? How is the examinee to know that he is being uncooperative if he is instructed by the examiner beforehand not to lie? Wouldn't the uninformed examinee believe he is being cooperative by answering ALL questions truthfully?  Also, wouldn't examinee knowledge of control questions impact the polygraph procedure? For instance, if the examinee knows the tester doesn't care about certain questions why would he react to them?
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #4 - Sep 29th, 2005 at 1:19pm
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Darkcobra,

In a nutshell, (scientific) CONTROL = (scientific) CONTROL.   COMPARISON = pseudoscientific intangible unreasonable (as to underlying assumptions) unverifiable nonsense (whether an examinee "cooperates" (lies on cue to a comparison question) to further a silly polygraph paradigm or not) and is no substitute for scientific control.  It is time the polygraph community realizes that it has a responsibility to provide scientific control within its experiments/"tests" or pack its collective bags, pack up shop, and figuratively go home.
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #5 - Sep 30th, 2005 at 2:02am
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darkcobra2005 wrote on Sep 29th, 2005 at 7:35am:
The examiner will lead you into an answer you are not comfortable with on control questions, that is what I mean by following the examiners lead.  Yes you are uncomfortable with the answer to the control, therefore a comparrison to the relevant to which you are truthful and comfortable gives a good "Comparrison"



Cobra:
How do you know that I am uncomfortable with the control questions? You don't know me--would have just met me literally minutes before asking me controls, but yet, you can read my mind and know that I am uneasy about them?
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #6 - Sep 30th, 2005 at 11:24pm
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I KNOW FOR SURE THAT THE CONTROLS QUESTIONS DIDN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL. KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW I WOULD HAVE BEEN AND PROBABLY PASSED MY POLYGRAPH!
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #7 - Sep 30th, 2005 at 11:24pm
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I KNOW FOR SURE THAT THE CONTROLS QUESTIONS DIDN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL. KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW I WOULD HAVE BEEN AND PROBABLY PASSED MY POLYGRAPH!
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #8 - Oct 1st, 2005 at 12:08pm
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Dark Cobra,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your last question.  I am on the road and have not been (nor will be for the next few) very cyber-connected over the past few days.  You write in your last post:

Quote:

Please give me a "Scientific Control" question to view and use.  I am sure you have researched this and I am very interested.


The point is that there is no scientific control in the various kinds of commonly used lie tests.  The RI technique doesn't even pretend to have it; the various forms of PLCQT fail miserably at providing it.  The concealed information test (CIT)/Guilty Knowledge Test is the only polygraphic format with a sound basis for practice and which presently offers any form of meaningful control.  I won't repeat the example I previously gave from the physical sciences (chemistry/toxicology) which represents one of a whole host which could be sited and is so standard in these communities as to go without saying.  Unfortunately such is not the case with the current customary practice of lie detection.
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #9 - Oct 1st, 2005 at 7:29pm
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darkcobra2005 wrote on Oct 1st, 2005 at 7:04pm:
...
Polygraph is not a true science, it is in fact an art based on sound scientific principals...


The National Academy of Sciences disagrees with your assessment, concluding at p. 213 of its report, The Polygraph and Lie Detection:

Quote:
The theoretical rationale for the polygraph is quite weak, especially in terms of differential fear, arousal, or other emotional states that are triggered in response to relevant or comparison questions.
  

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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #10 - Oct 1st, 2005 at 8:40pm
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darkcobra2005 wrote on Oct 1st, 2005 at 8:23pm:
The National Academy of Sciences study had a motivation other than seeking the truth.  It was an attempt to stop polygraph examinations of DOE scientiests.  Much of the study is based on science, however some of the conclusions are not.  The motivation for the study says much about the conclusions.


Nonsense. The members of the National Academy of Scientists' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph were selected not only on the basis of expertise in their fields of research, but also based on their lack of conflict of interest. Before their final appointment, the public was invited to comment on their suitability. To the best of my knowledge, none were challenged.

Why should your opinion (as a non-scientist with a vested interest in polygraphy) regarding the scientific underpinnings of polygraphy be accepted over the opinion of these disinterested, eminently qualified scientists?
  

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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #11 - Oct 2nd, 2005 at 12:48am
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I continually note the anti folks talking about just what the NAS sudy was all about.  I have to tell you that they are wrong.  I am going to "paste" a response in here from the American Polygraph Association....now admittedly, it is from the APA, but it is accurate, and even dark cobra has it wrong.  I invite anyone to correct me if I am wrong, but what thwe NAS did was NOT a scientific study by any means.  Take a look:

APA response to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) report 

The American Polygraph Association (APA) recognizes the efforts of such a prestigious body as the National Academy of Sciences in the work performed in exploring questions associated with the detection of deception.

We wish to note that the APA was not invited to participate in any of the deliberations, nor consulted to provide responses to many questions raised in this project. The APA proudly counts among its membership, well qualified and highly regarded academicians who routinely conduct and publish research in peer reviewed publications and who would have eagerly contributed to this project. Perhaps in a follow-up assessment, the NAS or a similar body will look to the largest international organization in the detection of deception field for answers to some of the important questions in such an inquiry.

It is important that the public be aware that in their published report, the National Academy of Sciences did not conduct any new or original laboratory or field research on polygraph testing. Their effort was confined to a review of the research on polygraph testing and in particular to that which pertains to personnel screening. In doing so, the academy relied on only 57 of the more than 1,000 research studies available.

The NAS panel and the APA recognize that the field of lie detection is a difficult one to quantify or measure in terms of real world effectiveness. As the NAS so clearly reports, real world conditions are difficult if not impossible to replicate in a mock crime or laboratory environment for the purpose of assessing effectiveness.

As a result, a paradigm for research into the validity and efficacy of lie detection has always been, at best, a difficult challenge. We further agree that a lack of resources over the past decades has hampered more meaningful research, particularly in the security and applicant screening arena.

It must be addressed; however, that the NAS report does not adequately recognize the many successes of polygraph in both the criminal specific arena and in National Security. Polygraph testing admittedly not perfect, has been and continues to be an extremely valuable tool. We firmly believe that continued scientific research will support our position; therefore, we welcome the NAS recommendation for additional research and greater innovation in the field.

We agree with the panel’s conclusion that although there may be alternative techniques to polygraph testing, none of these alternatives outperform, nor do any of them yet show promise of supplanting the polygraph in the near term.

We further agree with the NAS finding that expanding research efforts be directed at detecting and deterring major security threats, including efforts for improving techniques for security screening. We believe polygraph testing now provides satisfactory detection and deterrence, enhanced research efforts; however, will certainly expand our capacity to improve efforts in those areas. The APA will continue to conduct and support research within its limited resources; however, we must look to other sources, perhaps including the Federal Government to allocate the resources needed to fully accomplish the specific research challenges offered by the NAS. The APA stands ready and willing to work with such sources to bring the recommendations of the NAS to fruition.

  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #12 - Oct 2nd, 2005 at 1:48am
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Dear Propoly5822,

With your comments noted, why do so many agencies, specifically, the FBI, use the pre-screening polygraph which was recognized as better than chance but far below "perfect"?   Why will the agency not record video or audio of the proceedings?   

The NAS stated that reliable research into polygraph usage on specific incident testing was questionable because it lacks independent review.  The parties involved have an interest in the outcome of the research.  The fox cannot watch the henhouse.

That being said,  I am upset by the use of any machine which has questionable factual research (either way, pro or anti) used to determine the integrity of any applicant.  This decision is not subject to background investigation to confirm factually the allegations.

False allegations by this machine used as it is in pre-employment screening has ruined lives and reputations.  The ends do not justify the means and I do not find the effectiveness worth the "cost of acceptable casualties of war."  These are United States Citizens who are protected by the Constitution.

Regards.
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #13 - Oct 2nd, 2005 at 6:16am
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Dear Darkcobra2005,

This is not the first thread to get lost after discussion.  The discussion is civil and the points are valid.  I recognize that you have the opinion that the NAS study was tainted for the same reason I feel that studies supplied by the DODPA and APA are tainted.

This does not change the fact that ALL polygraph procedures should be recorded.   This can protect both the polygraph examiner and examinee.  Why the foot dragging?   A standard DVD can now record 6 hours easily and does not require much more storage than the actual physical paper tapes.  Certainly it is not a cost factor since DVDs are now down to under $0.50 a piece and almost all computers can burn them.  The camara equipment is less than 5% of the cost of the polygraph equipment itself.   

Bottom line,  it gives the "appearance" that the examiner has something to hide when a recording is not made.  I have not heard of any applicant in the pre-screening process that would object to such a measure.

Regards.
  
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Re: Baaad Feeling in my Stomach
Reply #14 - Oct 2nd, 2005 at 8:58am
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propoly5822 wrote on Oct 2nd, 2005 at 12:48am:
I continually note the anti folks talking about just what the NAS sudy was all about.  I have to tell you that they are wrong.  I am going to "paste" a response in here from the American Polygraph Association....now admittedly, it is from the APA, but it is accurate, and even dark cobra has it wrong.  I invite anyone to correct me if I am wrong, but what thwe NAS did was NOT a scientific study by any means....


propoly5822,

The National Academy of Sciences conducted a review of the scientific evidence regarding polygraphy. That mission is evidenced in the very name of the panel that conducted the review: the Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph. To my knowledge, no one has represented the NAS report to be anything other than a research review. This does not invalidate or in any way detract from their conclusions.

The reason that the NAS panel did not consider the vast majority of the American Polygraph Association's "more than 1,000 research studies" is that they did not meet even the minimum standards of scientific rigor.

The APA complains that it "was not invited to participate in any of the deliberations, nor consulted to provide responses to many questions raised in this project." The fact of the matter is that no outsiders were invited to participate in the NAS panel's deliberations, and any such participation would have been inappropriate. However, the NAS held a series of public hearings that were open to anyone who wished to attend, and the public was also invited to send relevant information. Apparently, the APA chose neither to attend the hearings nor to provide any relevant documentation.

But it would be wrong to say that the views of the polygraph community went unrepresented. Senior members of the polygraph community gave presentations at the NAS polygraph committee's public hearings (which were also well attended by representatives of various federal polygraph programs) and had the advantage over polygraph critics of being able to give presentations at hearings (at DOE and CIA) that were closed to the public.
  

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