Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial (Read 34488 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
May 19th, 2005 at 8:44am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
A review of AntiPolygraph.org's referrer log led to a post titled "just beat a polygraph test!" on Overgrow.com, a website used by marijuana growers to share information. In this post, "frostibud108" states that he used countermeasures learned on AntiPolygraph.org to pass a police-administered polygraph examination regarding a crime regarding which he falsely denied having knowledge:

Quote:
you heard it right folks. polygraph tests are bullshit.

i cant give details but here goes the short story.

my buddy did something illegal and left something of mine at the scene of the crime. this thing of mine led cops to me and basically made me a suspect. the police said that if i took a polygraph test for them and passed, they would basically drop me as a suspect.
thanks to http://www.antipolygraph.org/ i was able to pass the polygraph pretty nicely, despite saying i didnt know anything about the incident and such. (when i really do know about it)

good shit man. smokin a fat one tonight in celebration


AntiPolygraph.org makes information about polygraph countermeasures freely available to provide truthful persons with a means of protecting themselves against the risk of a false positive outcome. But unavoidably, the same information is also available to, and may be used by, deceptive persons. Let this post serve as a reminder regarding the danger of relying on polygraph results to guide criminal investigations.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
Ex Member


Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #1 - May 19th, 2005 at 9:04am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Although, the use of information obtained at antipolygraph.org was used for the wrong reasons, this does serve as notice that polygraph testing is flawed through and through.  This is testimony that someone with intent "fooled" a police polygrapher while outright lying.

If someone intentionally being deceptive can successfully complete the test, what of those honest persons that don't complete the test with success?

Thanks for the "ammunition" pot-head.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Shadow
User
**
Offline


Who knows what evil lurks
in the hearts of men?
 The Shadow knows

Posts: 29
Joined: Feb 27th, 2003
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #2 - May 23rd, 2005 at 5:59am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
AntiPolygraph.org makes information about polygraph countermeasures freely available to provide truthful persons with a means of protecting themselves against the risk of a false positive outcome. But unavoidably, the same information is also available to, and may be used by, deceptive persons. Let this post serve as a reminder regarding the danger of relying on polygraph results to guide criminal investigations


We, the makers of thalidomide, are very sorry that it caused birth defects; however, we should not be held accountable because your doctor prescribed it for your use.

This web site provides information to those seeking to insure they pass a polygraph, plain and simple.  Who those individuals are or to what ends they seek the information for, you have no knowledge; but you are responsible for providing the knowledge to them...so do not try and make your efforts legitimate [wash your hands of Joe Pot Head] by placing a disclaimer with Joe Pot Head’s web post highlighted.   

What will the post by the child molester/rapist/murder [choose one] who the cops let go look like when he/she posts saying thank you for the help???

Knowledge is power, but posting knowledge [providing power] with out any concern for the repercussions makes us no better than those who wrong the innocent in screening polygraphs.

I agree, a polygraph should never be the short cut to good police work; but what happens when it is used in that manner [and you/we helped]?

Not a sermon, just a thought 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2005 at 6:15am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
It is hardly fair to be hinting that the people who provide information on how to "pass" a polygraph could be helping criminals.  If the police or an intelligence agency chooses to use a polygraph in place of an actual investigation the entirety of any blame lies with them, not with anyone who provides information on how to get favorable results when "tested" with a polygraph.  If the police routinely opted to have a someone read the palms of suspects, would a website that suggested "cup your palm slightly and you will get a more favorable reading" be even slightly liable if a criminal "passed" the test?
Any police agency that chooses to utilize a "test" which can be defeated by simply altering your breathing during certain questions is acting foolishly and is, in my opinion, not fulfilling their sworn obligation to protect the public.  Blaming whoever suggested the change in breathing pattern is equally foolish.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2005 at 8:04am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Shadow,

So what do you suggest we do differently? Are you suggesting that the countermeasure information on AntiPolygraph.org should be withdrawn? Regarding the ethical issues involved in publishing such information, see my Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Shadow
User
**
Offline


Who knows what evil lurks
in the hearts of men?
 The Shadow knows

Posts: 29
Joined: Feb 27th, 2003
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #5 - May 24th, 2005 at 3:22am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George & Sergeant 1107,

Gentlemen, I am not saying this web sit is wrong; however, the posting of Joe Pot Heads’ comment cut me both ways.  Yes, this site provides a greater good, at the same time it also aids those who seek to do harm.  

I agree with Sergeant 1107, shame on the PD or Intel Agency that uses polygraph and fails to explore all the dimensions, but it does not mean we need to facilitate the bad guys.

George, I have read your response to Mr Menges.  I find you both saying the same thing about the use of countermeasures but from diametrically opposed ends of the spectrum.  

Quote:
Menges states that "some polygraph opponents have gone a step further to advocate the use of countermeasures to defeat polygraph examinations." AntiPolygraph.org does not advocate the use of countermeasures "to defeat polygraph examinations." Our suggestion to anyone suspected of a crime has always been (and remains) to refuse to submit to polygraphic interrogation. With regard to polygraph screening, we have never advocated that anyone use countermeasures to "defeat" a polygraph examination. Nor have we made the argument attributed to us by Menges that "even innocent subjects need to employ countermeasures in order to be deemed innocent by examiners." Rather, we have simply suggested countermeasures as a possible strategy for protecting oneself against a false positive outcome. “

Mr. Menges as a polygraph advocate, you as a polygraph foe.  Potato vs Pototo…

Quote:
It should also be noted that Menges adopts a different definition of "countermeasures" than does AntiPolygraph.org. For Menges, "[c]ountermeasures refer to deliberate attempts by a guilty person to preclude the accurate outcome of a testing process." By contrast, in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, AntiPolygraph.org defines countermeasures simply as "deliberate techniques that may be used to 'pass' a polygraph interrogation," without regard to guilt or innocence.

Did not Joe Pot Head do exactly what Menges referred to as a “countermeasure” that he learned on this site.. so are they not the same?

I just felt that acknowledging the fact that Joe Pot Head used this sites information is providing fuel to the adversaries of this site.  I applaud you for not shrinking from the truth; however, at the same time had you not published it, no one would be the wiser and our “enemies” would not have that bit of information.  I acquaint this to Albert Einstein’s  statement made years after the advent of the H-bomb [I paraphrase] “If I had known that the Germans were that far off, I would have not taken part in opening that Pandora's box.” [in reference to the letter he sent to FDR foretelling the possibility of Germany building an atomic bomb]

A possible solution would be to have a subscription section on this site with strict admission policy for which entries such as the initial post could be placed.  You can still get the word out, but at the same time provide “insider” info for those who truly want to know… or continue to operate in the manner presently established and press forward. 

I only offered my comments as food for thought, 
"Not a sermon, just a thought”
« Last Edit: May 24th, 2005 at 3:57am by The Shadow »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
Ex Member


Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #6 - May 24th, 2005 at 4:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
A possible solution would be to have a subscription section on this site with strict admission policy for which entries such as the initial post could be placed.


What would the admission criteria be?  How do you propose to verify information provided by those priveleged few to access this secure area?  This is not a professional issues site where strict standards can be met, making your suggestion nearly if not completely impossible.

There is no way to ensure that only persons with good intentions obtain the information available from antipolygraph.org.  A poster could give the impression that he/she is seeking information to avoid being mislabeled as a liar, when in fact the person desires the information to facilitate lying his/her ass off to obtain a favorable polygraph result.

The only way to ensure that those people seeking information for the wrong reasons do not obtain it is to make the information publicly unavailable.  This hopefully, and I expect, is not an option.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Jeffery
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 174
Joined: Oct 27th, 2004
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #7 - May 24th, 2005 at 4:46am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
I just felt that acknowledging the fact that Joe Pot Head used this sites information is providing fuel to the adversaries of this site.


I disagree.  Stipulating that joePotHead was truthful when he stated he used CM's to successfully pass his Polygraph, that harms the Pro-Polygraph community more than this site, by proving that Polygraph screening is highly fallible and in this case, dangerous (a PotHead passing).   

The greater good served by this site is in allowing truthful people to not be burned (labeled liars incorrectly) by exposing the lies behind polygraph testing.
If crooks beat the poly - I say shame on the lazy system that supports polygraph testing.  Honestly, I'd rather have a few crooks 'beat' the polygraph and have more honest people pass without being labeled liars (by protecting themselves with counter measures) than have many honest people be labeled liars because CM information wasn't available to them.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box ThePeaceMaker12
User
**
Offline



Posts: 25
Joined: May 23rd, 2005
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #8 - May 24th, 2005 at 6:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Jeffery wrote on May 24th, 2005 at 4:46am:


I disagree.  Stipulating that joePotHead was truthful when he stated he used CM's to successfully pass his Polygraph, that harms the Pro-Polygraph community more than this site, by proving that Polygraph screening is highly fallible and in this case, dangerous (a PotHead passing).  

The greater good served by this site is in allowing truthful people to not be burned (labeled liars incorrectly) by exposing the lies behind polygraph testing.
If crooks beat the poly - I say shame on the lazy system that supports polygraph testing.  Honestly, I'd rather have a few crooks 'beat' the polygraph and have more honest people pass without being labeled liars (by protecting themselves with counter measures) than have many honest people be labeled liars because CM information wasn't available to them.


Yeah, I was an honest guy who failed his poly and was branded a "LIAR."  It makes me angry and bitter to think about it.  I have lost alot of faith in the system.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Shadow
User
**
Offline


Who knows what evil lurks
in the hearts of men?
 The Shadow knows

Posts: 29
Joined: Feb 27th, 2003
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #9 - May 25th, 2005 at 4:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
The greater good served by this site is in allowing truthful people to not be burned (labeled liars incorrectly) by exposing the lies behind polygraph testing. 

Jeffery, do not those who practice the "black art" espouse the same logic when they condemn all who post information on this site?

I agree screening exams are a waste of time.  They serve two purposes, provide a false sense of security to the keepers of the kingdom; as well as provide inroads for interrogations into the anxiety closets of ones life.

The use of polygraph in law enforcement on the other hand, provides but one tool for an investigator to use in the investigation of a crime.  A tool, that when used correctly, produces valued results. You would not use a hammer to screw in a screw; polygraphs should not be the only investigative step in an investigation.  The posting of information on this site does allow individuals to “prep” themselves for a screening exam, but it also aids the less reputable individuals of society to game the system.

Brandon:
I agree the requirements to restrict access would be counterproductive [it could be done via the use of certificates and such] to the entire reason this site exists.  I only offer my comments up because as I stated in my previous post, I am not saying this web sit is wrong; however, the posting of Joe Pot Heads’ comment cut me both ways.  Yes, this site provides a greater good, at the same time it also aids those who seek to do harm.  

I just wanted to express my concern to all who post to this site that every comment made here can be used for both good and bad.  Sometimes the greater good means one may need to parse his words before posting public.

"Not a sermon, just a thought"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #10 - May 25th, 2005 at 8:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Shadow,

The reason I posted frostibud108's here is that it sheds some light on a dark corner of polygraphy. Very few deceptive persons who use countermeasures to pass a polygraph examination publicly say so. Frostibud108's post is a rare exception, and I thought it noteworthy.

At the same time, I thought it was important to note (especially for new visitors to this website) that  our motivation in making countermeasure information publicly available is to protect the innocent against the random error associated with an invalid test and not to aid the guilty, even while recognizing that the information provided here may benefit the latter to the extent that polygraph results are relied upon.

I think your sarcastically delivered comparison of me to a thalidomide manufacturer seeking to avoid liability is inappropriate. Indeed, I find it highly offensive.

We're not selling a product here. We're engaging in 1st Amendment protected speech about a procedure that the scientific community agrees is invalid.

Now you seem to be suggesting that perhaps I should not have publicly mentioned frostibud108's post because it "provid[es] fuel to the adversaries of this site." I disagree. On the contrary, frostibud108's post vividly illustrates the danger of relying on polygraph results.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #11 - May 25th, 2005 at 8:26am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
darkcobra2005 wrote on May 25th, 2005 at 7:49am:
...Did "POT HEAD" defeat a polygraph or is this someone boasting about something he did not do?  Just food for thought. 


While it is certainly possible that frostibud108 fabricated his post on Overgrow.com (like you did here on AntiPolygraph.org when you posted as thevet2/checking), it is hard to see what motivation he may have had for doing so (unlike you, who are a polygraph operator).
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #12 - May 26th, 2005 at 3:46am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
My, my -- a tendency towards hurt whining at the slightest provocation, and jumping to conclusions regarding whether someone "supports their country", based upon nothing more than where he or she lives.  Yep.  Sounds like a polygrapher.

I see very little has changed in my hiatus from the site: polygraphers are still the single best exhibit for the site regarding whether or not judgements about careers, crimes and the fate of the country should be in polygraphers' hands.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #13 - May 26th, 2005 at 4:48am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
darkcobra2005 wrote on May 26th, 2005 at 4:35am:
Skeptic, do some research on George, you may be very suprised what you find and suprise yourself.  No not a whiner, just defensive, as are others on this site.  And you are not turning your country over to me or anything else over to me.  You are in control of you, I am in control of me.  You are a very senior user, should understand that aspect of placing yourself in harms way.  And are you aware of where George moved, what languages he speaks and what his present day activities are?  Do a little research and you may be very suprised. 


Cobra,
As you noted, I've been around awhile.  I've seen just about all of it: polygraphers pretending to be "victims" of Antipolygraph's information, pretending to be naive questioners, posting under multiple usernames, you name it.  All of which, in just about any internet forum, is considered bad form, to say the least.  On many message boards, it would get you banned permanently.  I've always found such immature and dishonest behavior very, very telling, and can honestly say that it's among the worst I've seen online.  And that's coming from someone who's spent a lot of time on Usenet.  I've seen bad.

Perhaps I wasn't clear: what I meant when I discussed whether or not "the fate of the country should be in polygraphers' hands" was simply this: too many intelligence and law enforcement agencies put undue faith in the polygraph, both to screen potential applicants and as a factor in criminal investigations.  This faith has very likely resulted in spies and traitors going undetected.  I'm not sure how much more serious one could get, in terms of  ramifications for the country.

As for George, yes, I'm aware of where he has lived and what he's done for a living.  I've met him in person and found him very personable, intelligent and earnest.  I've also never seen anything from him, as a U.S. citizen, to suggest disloyalty to the U.S.  Were it otherwise, I wouldn't have anything to do with him: I work for the U.S. government myself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Shadow
User
**
Offline


Who knows what evil lurks
in the hearts of men?
 The Shadow knows

Posts: 29
Joined: Feb 27th, 2003
Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial
Reply #14 - May 26th, 2005 at 4:56am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,
Quote:
The reason I posted frostibud108's here is that it sheds some light on a dark corner of polygraphy. Very few deceptive persons who use countermeasures to pass a polygraph examination publicly say so. Frostibud108's post is a rare exception, and I thought it noteworthy.

Agree it is noteworthy, as I said previously it just struck a cord in me and caused me to re-think public postings.
Quote:
At the same time, I thought it was important to note (especially for new visitors to this website) that  our motivation in making countermeasure information publicly available is to protect the innocent against the random error associated with an invalid test and not to aid the guilty, even while recognizing that the information provided here may benefit the latter to the extent that polygraph results are relied upon. 

Again, I agree with what you are saying and I track with your line of thought; however, as I have said, it caused me to take pause and think.
Quote:

I think your sarcastically delivered comparison of me to a thalidomide manufacturer seeking to avoid liability is inappropriate. Indeed, I find it highly offensive. 
We're not selling a product here. We're engaging in 1st Amendment protected speech about a procedure that the scientific community agrees is invalid. 

My intent was not to offend; however, the analogy, not the kindest, still stands.  I truly feel we all must take responsibility for our actions.  By publicly posting information to the WWW on how to beat a polygraph, you are aiding [not intentionally] the more nefarious factions of our society.  By saying, "We're not selling a product here. We're engaging in 1st Amendment protected speech about a procedure that the scientific community agrees is invalid.", you cannot erase the fact that criminal elements benefit from your posts.  In fact, you almost sound like the defense attorney who plays word games with the law to win for his client.  You offer a service on this site for which you cannot control the end use.  This use can be for both the common good and for the lesser side of honesty.  You must always be aware of that and not hide behind the vile of “greater good” or "First Amendment rights."  As stated in my previous post, “Sometimes the greater good means one may need to parse his words before posting public.”  To quote Bill O’Reilly, “This is a no spin zone.”   
Quote:
Now you seem to be suggesting that perhaps I should not have publicly mentioned frostibud108's post because it "provid[es] fuel to the adversaries of this site." I disagree. On the contrary, frostibud108's post vividly illustrates the danger of relying on polygraph results.

Opponents of this site would offer that it shows just how dangerous this site is.  Again, two diametrically opposed ends of the spectrum using the same issue to support their argument.  I would be interested in your take on my comments to your reference to the "Menges post".
"Not a sermon, just a thought"

Darkcobra, 
Your comments to George are your opinion, but let us not forget, an American Citizen, living within the country or not, still has the same rights that are afforded all citizens of this nation.  Some citizens just chose to exercise those rights from afar.  George served his nation in the military and has earned the right to grouse/bitch/and complain just like any other veteran, whether you [or anyone else] agree with him or not.  That is what defines us as a nation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Polygraph Countermeasure Testimonial

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X