Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Countermeasures "Challenge" (Read 11092 times)
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Countermeasures "Challenge"
Feb 17th, 2005 at 12:51am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Here's a "challenge" I originally issued in another thread under another topic.  It has to do with countermeasures:

All of you who actually lied your asses off on relevant issues in a polygraph, and then passed the polygraph despite your lies due to countermeasures, speak up now.  Which relevant questions did you lie to, and which countermeasures did you use to pass?  Before anyone speaks up, make sure you understand what a relevant issue is and what a relevant question is, or you're going to come off sounding like the release of gas through a real anal sphincter.   Also, make sure you read up on the difference between a conclusion of deception and a conclusion of inconclusive.  They are not the same thing, and there are enough ignorant people on this board who don't know the difference in either case, so don't be one of them.   Grin

Speak now.  I have provided referenced studies in another thread that show that countermeasures have no effect on innocent examinees, but may help a guilty examinee produce a false negative.  I want to know if there are any of you who have actually produced a false negative.  Make sure you know what a false negative is, or ask and I or someone else in the know will tell you.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #1 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 6:06pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Now Anal:
   
  Do you really think anyone is going to admitt
lying, because we all know these posts can be tracked back to the person who posted them. 

  It would be very dumb to say that they used countermeasures for any thing other than to prevent false positives. 

  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #2 - Feb 17th, 2005 at 9:54pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ok, but if no one is willing to stand up and admit that he or she actually passed a polygraph by using countermeasures while lying to a particular "relevant" issue, how are we supposed to believe that they really work?  Just because George and Co. say so?  They can't have it both ways; they can't, with any credibility, tell all the scared little boys and girls that the only way they can ensure that they'll pass a polygraph is by using certain countermeasures, when there appears to be no one out there who will step up and admit that he or she passed the polygraph despite lying to a particular "relevant" issue--especially when one of their oft-cited researchers, Ben-Shakhar, says that such countermeasures do nothing for the innocent examinee.

Their faulty advice is going to get some of those scared little boys and girls into trouble with an experienced polygrapher.  I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #3 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 1:23am
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Why should anyone reveal any specific details regarding their experiences to you.  You won't return the favor.  If you look at past posts you will find a number of posters who claim they lied with the assistance of CMs and successfully completed a poly.  The simple existence of countermeasures along with the effects produced by CMs are factors which should impress upon people that poly is not exacting enough and somewhat easily fouled.  Simple excuses for the sphincter squeeze - "I was trying not to fart," "I've had gas all day," "Boy that spicy Mexican food last night is setting me off," etc.   WinkNobody could prove this to be untrue.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #4 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 2:15am
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Anal S,

You've got to be a polygraph examiner. I'd recognize that over inflated ego with a lack of credibility anywhere.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #5 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 3:31am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
AS,

I'm sure I am not the only one getting real tired of your
fumes; maybe you are, "I-SMELL-BS", in diguise.  I think
it is time your posts are moved to the Discarded Posts
forum.  This is an open forum , unlike
polygraphplace.com, where legitimate concerns are
discussed.  What  is your purpose being here, other
than trying to convince unknowning people to trust
polygraphers.  My extensive experience with NSA's
lying, manipulative polygraphers, says otherwise.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #6 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 4:27pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
AS,

I'm sure I am not the only one getting real tired of your
fumes; maybe you are, "I-SMELL-BS", in diguise.  I think
it is time your posts are moved to the Discarded Posts
forum.  This is an open forum , unlike
polygraphplace.com, where legitimate concerns are
discussed.  What  is your purpose being here, other
than trying to convince unknowning people to trust
polygraphers.  My extensive experience with NSA's
lying, manipulative polygraphers, says otherwise.


I am equally tired of your misguided regurgitations.  I am not "I-SMELL-BS" in disguise, nor have I ever read one of his/her posts.  I have read what Gino has said about those posts, though, and it doesn't sound like there was much substance to them.

My "purpose" is simply to dispel some of the fearmongering going on here.  George, Gino and Co. have nothing to support their agenda other than tired rhetoric and questionable and refutable lab studies.  I have repeatedly said that I can sit here and reguritate lab studies to support my claims just as easily as they can.  The polygraph is widely used simply because it is the best "lie detector" or "truth confirmer" available.  Your "extensive experience" aside, there are those with actual experience on the other side of the table to whom your silly arguments are laughable.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #7 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 6:11pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
AS,

 I am glad you are tired of my posts, so why don't you
get the hell off this site.  Why don't you just spend time
on the censured site, polygraphplace.com; there you can
sucker in all those unknowing, trusting people.  Yes, I
have taken a number of NSA polys, and although I am
far from an expert on the subject, after reading the
DoDPI Interrogation and Interview Handbook, I could
see that their little acting jobs were scripted from the
manual.  You must be really angry at this site (can't
blame you); I would be angry too, if people started
figuring out that my profession was a scam.   Well,
maybe it is actually better that you keep trashing this
site, that way, newcomers will see polygraphers for
what they really are.  Every time I watch Law-and-Order,
I see the same interrogation techniques (lying,
manipulating, aggression, etc.). Maybe your hostility is
one of those little acting jobs, hugh ?  This site should
be about technical/personal issues, but I looks like you
are trying to make everything an emotional issue. Go
away !
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #8 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 6:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
AS,

 I am glad you are tired of my posts, so why don't you
get the hell off this site.  Why don't you just spend time
on the censured site, polygraphplace.com; there you can
sucker in all those unknowing, trusting people.  Yes, I
have taken a number of NSA polys, and although I am
far from an expert on the subject, after reading the
DoDPI Interrogation and Interview Handbook, I could
see that their little acting jobs were scripted from the
manual.  You must be really angry at this site (can't
blame you); I would be angry too, if people started
figuring out that my profession was a scam.   Well,
maybe it is actually better that you keep trashing this
site, that way, newcomers will see polygraphers for
what they really are.  Every time I watch Law-and-Order,
I see the same interrogation techniques (lying,
manipulating, aggression, etc.). Maybe your hostility is
one of those little acting jobs, hugh ?


Actually, my name isn't "Hugh."   Smiley  Good guess, though.  One adjective I haven't used to describe my feelings about this site is anger.  Humor, yes.  Sad, yes.  Misinformation, yes.  Fearmongering, yes.  Silly, oh yes!  But anger, no.  It takes a lot to make me angry.  What you judge to be anger is simply a quick wit and enjoyment in using it to poke fun at short-sighted people who are so willing to buy into information that supports their hopes and conjectures.

You correctly characterize interrogation as a blend of lying, manipulation, and sometimes aggression.  Tried and true methods to extract information from the guilty.  The innocent needn't fear.  The polygraph, besides being much, much more accurate than George and Co. would have you believe, is also an excellent tool of intimidation to extract information from the guilty.  If that's all it were, it would be of value.  Fortunately, there are those of us with actual experience rather than tired rhetoric, regurgitated misinformation, and hopes of revenge who know it actually works, much to the dismay of the tiny minority of polygraph failures who dispense their placebo on this site.

One last thing: I will "get the hell off this site" either when I really do tire of it (which shouldn't take much longer), or when George and Co. tire of me making them look bad, at which time they will find a pretense to get rid of me.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #9 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 6:54pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"You correctly characterize interrogation as a blend of lying, manipulation, and sometimes aggression"

AS,

  If the polygraph was so accurate, then why do the
above techniques need to be employed ?  The
polygraph is used as only an intimidation tool, which is
supplimented by the above behaviors.  Also, how do
you explain the fact that the DoD DIS (Defense
Investigative Service) does not look at the actual
poly results from NSA (DIA, etc.), but just what the
person was tricked into admitting ?
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #10 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 7:07pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
"You correctly characterize interrogation as a blend of lying, manipulation, and sometimes aggression"

AS,

 If the polygraph was so accurate, then why do the
above techniques need to be employed ?  The
polygraph is used as only an intimidation tool, which is
supplimented by the above behaviors.  Also, how do
you explain the fact that the DoD DIS (Defense
Investigative Service) does not look at the actual
poly results from NSA (DIA, etc.), but just what the
person was tricked into admitting ?


The above techniques need to be employed because criminals don't simply say, "Gee, you got me" when confronted with polygraph results.  It is a good tool to augment such techniques, though.

As for the DoD DIS, who says they don't look at the poly results?  It's simply that poly results backed up with admissions is much, much more compelling and can't be effectively refuted by anyone, whether a believer in the polygraph or not.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #11 - Feb 25th, 2005 at 8:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Criminals, eh?  I'm no criminal and I didn't successfully complete my poly.  My record is nearly snow white.  The only exception is  a non-moving violation citation I received over ten years ago.  I exihibited some very questionable behavior as a youth, but criminal?  I can see the utility of the poly in criminal investigations as a scare tactic.  However, its place in employment screening is of no value.
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #12 - Feb 26th, 2005 at 5:05am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
OK, enough dilly-dallying.  Back to the countermeasures challenge.  Any takers?  Come on, somebody speak up . . . 

That's right, nothing but the sound of crickets in the grass . . .
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #13 - Feb 27th, 2005 at 6:42am
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If you are willing to orchestrate and financially provide for an exam in my city, I'll take you up on your challenge.  However, if I'm going to reveal more about myself you must return the courtesy.

Crickets or a fancy verbal dodge?
  
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Re: Countermeasures "Challenge"
Reply #14 - Feb 27th, 2005 at 8:06am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hi,
I second Polyscam's offer to your challenge.  If you come to me, I'll be more than happy to take you up.
  

"There is truth and there is untruth"
George Orwell, novel 1984
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Countermeasures "Challenge"

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