Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure (Read 9799 times)
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Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Jul 14th, 2004 at 7:25pm
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I haven't noticed any posts related to personal expriences using mental countermeasures. I am trying to decide what would be more effective for my pre-employment exam comming up shortly. Anyone with any exprience using mental countermeasures that could offer some tips would be appreciated:).

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #1 - Jul 16th, 2004 at 5:52am
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There's really no difference.  Just don't worry about it and you'll be fine.

  
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #2 - Jul 16th, 2004 at 6:43pm
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David,
Thanks for the reply, but are you saying that both work equally as good?I am assuming by best approach would be to use mental countermeasures seeing that they may be the hardest to suspect;seeing that polygraphers can't detect countermeasures???? Anyone else have sugestions or tips on mental countermeasures???????

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #3 - Jul 19th, 2004 at 11:46pm
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I take it nobody uses mental countermeasures then?Please my first polygraph ever is in 2 weeks and I need as much info as possible.
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2004 at 8:08am
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I think it all comes down to what you are most comfortable using.   You also may want to make sure that if you do indeed use mental counter-measures that you practice this in the mirror and make sure that your facial expression isn't going to give you away.  Many people tend to make some very obvious or odd facial gestures when concentrating or attempting really hard to think about something.  Which when answering a yes or no question would be dead give aways that something else was going on in their mind.

You also want to make sure that the counter-measure has a significant enough effect. 

The only counter-measure that I would highly advise against is altering your breathing pattern.  
  

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."&&
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #5 - Jul 23rd, 2004 at 1:43am
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Dimas,
Is it not required to alter your breathing in addition to using a countermeasure as describe in TLBTLD for control questions??? Are u suggesting this is incorrect?Anyone else with info in regards to breathing patterns.What if I maintained normal breathing throughout all questions, but just employed a regular countermeasure for the control question without changing my breathing pattern? Would this be enough to pass.Please help quick!!
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #6 - Jul 23rd, 2004 at 8:55am
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Anxietyguy,

What I was warning against was altering your breathing patterns.  The reason is that this is probably the easiest way to detect if you are using counter measures.  People's breathing patterns will usually not be as effected by telling a lie, as per se their heart rate or blood pressure.   Remember you are more than likely already going to be nervous by using counter measures and your breathing should naturally have a slight deviation from the norm already.   

Use the mental counter measure or the good old squeezing the sphincter trick and you should be fine, however, a good poly examiner or anyone with a basic understanding of physiology will be able to tell you are altering your breathing pattern, so it should be avoided if possible.
  

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."&&
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #7 - Jul 23rd, 2004 at 9:27am
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dimas wrote on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 8:55am:
....a good poly examiner or anyone with a basic understanding of physiology will be able to tell you are altering your breathing pattern, so it should be avoided if possible.


Dimas,

On what basis do you state the above? Of course, the polygraph instrument will record alterations in breathing patterns. But I'm not aware of any evidence that (except for gross distortions such as breathing very slowly or rapidly, or taking very deep or shallow breaths), polygraph examiners can reliably differentiate between voluntarily and involuntarily produced changes in breathing patterns.

The respiratory channels are the only ones that the examinee can directly control. Considering that the scorable breathing reactions are known (see Chapter 4 of TLBTLD,) I see no reason not to exploit them in one's countermeasure strategy.
  

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #8 - Jul 23rd, 2004 at 7:16pm
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Dimas, I will ask you what George, and ISBS have both asked, and perhaps you will answer if I ask more politely.  What is the basis for your advice on polygraph countermeasures.  Can you give us some idea of your expertise on this subject?
  
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #9 - Jul 24th, 2004 at 10:26am
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The problem with altering/controling ones breathing pattern lies more in the lack of experience of the examinee than anything else.   Most people will usually breath at a regular rate of 12-20 breaths per minute, with tidal volume, rate and rhythm remaining somewhat consistent in the absence of stimulus (I will address this shortly), or hypoxia.  

The examinee is already going to be nervous (stimulus) about the polygraph and will in turn have an increased heart rate and a subsequent need to increase his oxygen supply, so his breathing rate will also increase with a decrease in tidal volume, but the rhythm should remain almost the same.  An inexperience examinee will more than likely begin to alter the rhythm, tidal volume and rate to a point in which he is 1.  stimulating too much of a response(which will tip off the examiner) or 2.  Display a rhythm and rate which is out of the norm.  

Granted this is not a sure sign of countermeasure use, but enough to tip off an experienced examiner that something is or may be up.  

While an examinee with experience or practice may be able to pull it off without being caught most first time examinee's will be too nervous attempting to answer the question, use a mental/physical counter measure and control their breathing all at once.  Usually the one they mess up is the breathing because they are trying to breath at a rate, rhythm and volume that their body is not accustomed to and then begin to show very unusual patterns as they and their body attempt to compensate for this.
« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2004 at 11:19am by dimas »  

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #10 - Jul 24th, 2004 at 11:30am
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Quote:
Dimas, I will ask you what George, and ISBS have both asked, and perhaps you will answer if I ask more politely.  What is the basis for your advice on polygraph countermeasures.  Can you give us some idea of your expertise on this subject?  



NeutralObserver,  I could answer your question in a variety of ways, I could say I was a Polygrapher, have studied to become one, had experience taking polygraphs, have worked in a field in which polygraphs are used regulary, have a medical background, am in Law Enforcement, that I am a "mind reader"  or a variety of truths or lies, obvious or not, either way it would not matter as they would all be met with the same skepticism due to the nature of anonimity that a message board like this entails.  People will believe what they want to believe, I am simply offering my advice and it has to be taken for what it is worth which could be a grain of salt or its weight in gold.  Polygraphs are very useful, but Polygraphy is very flawed.

  

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."&&
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #11 - Aug 2nd, 2004 at 10:53pm
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Dimas,
So what your saying is that if I leave my baseline breathing the same for all questions including the control I will be ok?If I just use a physical countermeasure without the breathing will this produce a "truthfull" chart? Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter except ISBS? Thanks for the help guys.

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #12 - Aug 3rd, 2004 at 9:37am
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Can someone explain to me what exactly is countermeasures and how is it used? ???
  
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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #13 - Aug 3rd, 2004 at 12:58pm
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Nyla,

Polygraph countermeasures are techniques for passing (or beating) a polygraph examination. For details, see Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

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Re: Mental Vs. Physical Countermeasure
Reply #14 - Aug 3rd, 2004 at 1:36pm
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anxietyguy wrote on Aug 2nd, 2004 at 10:53pm:
Dimas,
So what your saying is that if I leave my baseline breathing the same for all questions including the control I will be ok?If I just use a physical countermeasure without the breathing will this produce a "truthfull" chart? Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter except ISBS? Thanks for the help guys.

Anxiety



You need to use a countermeasure on the control question.  What I am advising against is the use of a breathing countermeasure, because it can easily tip off the examiner.
  

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet; tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."&&
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