Normal Topic DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed (Read 8945 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6223
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Dec 22nd, 2003 at 2:43pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
When AntiPolygraph.org requested the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute (DoDPI) Federal Psychophysiological Detection of Deception Examiner Handbook under the Freedom of Information Act, the Defense Security Service (DSS) withheld, among other portions, Chapter 7, which concerns the "acquaintance test" (also called a "numbers test" or "stim test"), a bit of gimmickry used to trick examinees into believing that the polygraph can detect deception. DSS claimed that "disclosure could enable circumvention of the polygraph test by others."

However, it turns out that a DoDPI report previously approved for public release includes detailed instructions on how to administer the "numbers test." Richard Widup and Gordon H. Barland's March 1994 report, "Effect of the Location of the Numbers Test on Examiner Decision Rates in Criminal Psychophysiological Detection of Deception Tests" may be downloaded as an 870 kb PDF file here:

http://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi94-r-0015.pdf

The procedure for the "numbers test" is described at pp. 4-5 (14-15 of the PDF file):

Quote:
Procedure

The manner in which the numbers test was explained to the examinee was left to the discretion of the individual examiner. Although all examiners learned a standard procedure at DoDPI, with experience they typically develop an individualized style of administration. No attempt was made to standardize the administration of the numbers test just for this study. A typical numbers test might be conducted as follows.

"John, I am now going to conduct a test in which I want you to answer 'No' to all of the questions. The main purpose of this test is to determine if you are physiologically capable of being administered a PDD examination today. The way in which this test will be conducted is that I want you now to pick a number between 3 and 8, that is not either 3 or 8. Now, have you picked your numebr? Good. Now, please tell me your number." (The examinee answers that his number is 5.)

"Okay, John. As I recall, you are right handed, correct? Now, I want you to take this pen, and with your left hand write the number you picked on this piece of paper, somewhere in the middle. Please write the number a couple of lines high. Now, I am going to surround the number you wrote with numbers that I will write. I am now going to place this paper on the wall in front of you."

"We will now go over the way in which this test will be conducted. Keep in mind that I want you to answer 'No' to all the questions. The test will go this way. Regarding the number you wrote on that piece of paper, did you write the number 2? (The examinee answers 'No.') Did you write the number 3? (Answer: No.) Did you write the number 4? (Answer: No.) Did you write the number 5?" (Answer: No.)

"John, what is that answer? (The subject answers that the response was a lie.) That's right, John; that is a lie. Now, both you and I know that you wrote the number 5, correct? In fact, I saw you take your left hand and write that number on that piece of paper. I want you to answer 'No' nonetheless, and I will tell you why after this test is over. Did you write the number 6? (Answer: No.) Did you write the number 7? (Answer: No.) Did you write the number 8? (Answer: No.) Very good, John. Now I am going to start at the top of the list and go to the bottom, and I want you to follow along with me with your eyes, answering each question with a 'No.' John, do you have any questions? Now I will start the test."

At this point the test is administered. Immediately after the numbers test, the examiner shows the chart to the subject, pointing out the responses which occurred at the selected number. The examiner asks the subject what caused those responses. Most subjects reply that they do not know, whereupon the examiner replies "John, these responses occurred when you lied about the number you wrote. Now, lying about a number is normally not a big thing, is it? But it was to you, John, because you saw how big those responses were. Now the other questions on the main test are more important, aren't they? John, you can imagine how large those responses would be if you are lying to me about any or [sic, correct "of"] those, can't you? That's the reason you need to be 100% truthful with me here today."


Many polygraph subjects do show a significant physiological response when they reach the number they chose. But such responses have nothing to do with deception. When the subject replies 'No' to the number he wrote, he isn't attempting to deceive the polygrapher: he is merely following instructions. The process of having the subject pick the number and write it with his weak hand tends to make that number significant to him compared with the other numbers in the series. For more on "stim tests," see Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Canadian Crusader
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 80
Joined: Jul 8th, 2003
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #1 - Dec 22nd, 2003 at 11:17pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The polygraphers on this board slay me with their dribble that detecting countermeasures and the poly "work".  This thread, posted just this morning, has already recived 440 plus views.  Word sure gets out quick when George posts info regarding the secret inside workings of polygraphy.

Yes I am assuming that it is mostly polygraphers that are causing the large number of views.

If the polygraph "works" and you sheep can detect countermeasures then why such a big concern as demonstrated by the number of views to this thread?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Torpedo
Senior User
***
Offline


AKA Geen Lantern

Posts: 86
Joined: Jan 9th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #2 - Dec 22nd, 2003 at 11:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hate to shock you Crusader....but it isn't any secret...never was....information about this technique has appearded in many publications....even legitimite ones. George knows why the information was withheld...he is just trying to make a mountain out of a molehill...and his sheep (I guess that includes you!) are following the sound of his trumpet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6223
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #3 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 8:02am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Canadian Crusader,

While numerous polygraphers do follow (and sometimes participate in) the discussions on this message board, the relatively large number of views this message thread has received in a relatively short time is mainly attributable to its having been linked to from elsewhere.

Torpedo,

You write that I "know" why DSS withheld the information on the "numbers test" from the Federal PDD Examiner Handbook requested under the Freedom of Information Act. In light of the previously released report by Widup and Barland, it appears that DSS's decision to withhold such information was arbitrary and capricious, and based primarily on the identity of the requester, rather than legitimate concern about enabling "circumvention of the polygraph test by others."
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box howie
Guest


Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #4 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 11:17am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
sort of makes sense, considering how complex the speech-mechanism is, and knowing how much evolutionary worth there is in lying, and seeing that any objection to lying comes from an evaluation based on a moral systen with no physiological roots, it seems pretty obviouse that there is no measurable difference between someone who is at that moment lying and someone who is not.

this dream of truth serums et al. is basically a reflection of the assumption of the christian right that going against the will of god will result in a change that can be registered by a machine or made impossible by drugs.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box ruth sproull
Guest


Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #5 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 2:17pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thank you for this website that discloses some of the hypocrisy in the propaganda about so-called "lie detector tests."  I'm the "Ruth Sproull" whose op-ed appears if you "yahoo" or "google" about "Bush's Brave New Wage World."  In this strange global authoritarian tangle we're encountering presently, every breath toward free thought helps us evolve toward the spiritual freedom humanity deserves.  Merry Christmas, in the sense of the anointing everyone can claim, every day, for every moment we choose liberty,
Ruth, 12-23-03
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box what???
Guest


Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #6 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 7:51pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Well Ruth your post demonstrates one thing for sure.  This board draws the biggest collection and the most variety of nuts I have ever seen.  I have read your post serveral times and I still have no idea what it in the hell you are talking about.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6223
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #7 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 8:59pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
...This board draws the biggest collection and the most variety of nuts I have ever seen...


So what brings you here?
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Torpedo
Senior User
***
Offline


AKA Geen Lantern

Posts: 86
Joined: Jan 9th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #8 - Dec 23rd, 2003 at 9:27pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George, perhaps if you had simply asked for that section which is CONTAINED in a larger work...then your request might have been approved. You tout knowledge ofthe military system and you should KNOW that "general" FOIA requests are less likely to be approved when you are seeking specific information...hence your mountain....plus, you KNOW that the information about the stim/acquaintance test is and always has been available elsewhere....just what is your point?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6223
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #9 - Dec 24th, 2003 at 10:30am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Torpedo,

I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say I "tout knowledge of the military system." In any event, AntiPolygraph.org's FOIA request for the Federal PDD Examiner Handbook was not a "general" request: it was a specific request for a precisely identified document.

My point is that in light of the public release of the Widup & Barland report, DSS's withholding of Chapter 7 (just one of numerous portions of the Handbook withheld) on the ground that releasing it "could enable circumvention of the polygraph test by others" rings hollow.

It is true that information about the "numbers test" has long been available elsewhere (for example, at p. 100 of David T. Lykken's A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 2nd ed., 1998). However, the cited passage from the Widup & Barland report provides what seems to be the most detailed publicly available documentation of DoDPI's procedure for administering the "numbers test," and as such, it is worthy of note.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Torpedo
Senior User
***
Offline


AKA Geen Lantern

Posts: 86
Joined: Jan 9th, 2003
Gender: Male
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #10 - Dec 24th, 2003 at 10:27pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Chapter 10 of Matte's book offers all of the "secrets"
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Marty
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 499
Joined: Sep 27th, 2002
Re: DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed
Reply #11 - Dec 24th, 2003 at 11:41pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Torpedo,

Good book.

-Marty
  

Leaf my Philodenrons alone.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
DoDPI "Numbers Test" Disclosed

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X