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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) FBI polygraph experience (Read 38090 times)
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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #15 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 8:30am
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Undesirable Candidate,

I'm just curious here.......you read TLBTLD, and you probably read many horror stories here about the FBI polygraph experience, and all the false positive findings.  Did you choose not to use countermeasures for ethical reasons, or did you put all your faith in the complete honesty approach?  Enquiring minds and all......

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #16 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 7:41pm
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Kona-

Good question. The answer is this: I experimented with CM's on a couple of 'Control' questions, just to see if there was any distinct variance(s) between the use of CM's or the straightforward truth. Unfortunately, (and I should have foreseen this) I never was able to view the charts afterward, and even if I had been able to, I don't suspect I would have been able to determine if there was any difference in the physiological responses, since I am not a professional 'chart gazer' and don't possess the exquisite training afforded to the elite 'professional' polygraph examiner community. I unobtrusively increased my breathing and heart rate and visualized 'exciting' scenarios in my head to accomplish the electrodermal responses, but have no clue whether or not they did anything on the chart. I find it strange though, over my career in federal service, after holding and maintaining TS-SCI level clearance, that I have never been polygraphed by any of the agencies which afforded me that level of clearance. Odd. Anyway, to answer your other question, I had no valid reason to use countermeasures other than perhaps to offset the guilt of being in presence of others who were using drugs illegally. The fact that I hold a clearance and consider myself a law-abiding citizen I suspect was enough for me to feel guilt during the questions about drug usage, and thus, damaging physiological responses during these same questions. I would think that the FBI would appreciate the fact that candidates for employment would feel guilty about having been present where a 'crime' was being commited, even though the prospective employee never engaged in the actual 'act' of the crime itself. So, I decided not to use CM's throughout the entire 'test' for ethical reasons. I don't think it's such a bad thing to feel some measure of guilt about past involvement in things one knows is against the law, even when that involvement was not active engagement of breaking a law. Except of course, when one is engaged in taking a polygraph 'test'. I read TLBTLD essentially for background information on the polygraph and it's administration, not for the effective use of countermeasures. I'm not sure that I could have identified the control questions without having read TLBTLD, however. And really, I didn't need to identify the control questions at all, since I had no plans to use CM's. Hope this dissertation answers your questions.

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #17 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 8:43pm
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undesireable,

Why would you "experiment" with CM's but maintain you chose not to use CM's?  The examiner doesn't know what questions you "experimented" on vs those you didn't use CM's on.

-Marty
  

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #18 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 10:13pm
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Marty-

I made an error in judgement. I should have decided before the 'test' to either use CM's throughout the 'test' or not. I thought I would attempt CM's on a couple questions just for the hell of it to determine if the examiner would notice anything (about myself or the charts) during the application of CM's and say something to me about it. Nothing was said. Perhaps I should clarify my 'experimentation' with CM's. The first series of questions regarded counterintelligence. Three separate charts were taken, with the order of questions changed for each of the three charts. No CM's were used. The second series of questions regarded drug use and veracity of information on the FD-140. Three separate charts were taken, order of questions changed for each chart.  On the second series of questions, for the second chart, I attempted CM's on a couple control questions. That was the extent of my use of the CM's. I know that there was probably no discernible difference in physiological responses, and nothing was said about it. These 6 charts were all identified, according to TLBTLD, as the PLCQT format. I was then given another set of questions regarding drug use and veracity of information contained in the FD-140, this time with what appeared to be some relevant/irrelevant questions such as "are you sometimes called XXXXXX" and "is today "XXXXXXXX", interspersed with the relevant questions and standard control questions I recognized from the PLCQT format previous to this set of questions. The order of the questions was changed for each chart recording, and three charts were taken. At the conclusion of the 'test', I was given my coat, asked to take a seat in the corner of the room, and my examiner said I had 'hit' on the drug questions and the veracity of information contained in the FD-140. I explained my reasoning behind the 'hits' on the drug questions as being unable to disassociate myself with events that had taken place in the past, even though I was not guilty of any actual wrongdoing. The examiner seemed satisfied with my answer, and concluded our 'session', by asking me if I had any questions. I said I had none. He asked me what I thought of the 'test'. I responded that it was 'interesting'. He said 'Interesting?' and I said yes. This concluded our time together. We shook hands, and I left. Conclusions? Hell if I know.

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #19 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 11:04pm
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On the second series of questions, for the second chart, I attempted CM's on a couple control questions. That was the extent of my use of the CM's. I know that there was probably no discernible difference in physiological responses, and nothing was said about it.


undesirable,

Thanks for the detail.  I am curious as to why you believe you didn't have any reactions to your use of CM's. I wouldn't expect the examiner to comment about any reaction to the controls.

Also, since you were an "informed" examinee, do you think your reactions to the controls (which I assume you lied on as expected but did not use CM's) were as strong as they would have been if you hadn't understood the way they are utilized?

-Marty
  

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #20 - Dec 9th, 2003 at 11:10pm
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Undesirable,

It's unfortunate that you didn't attack the polygraph with the employment of full countermeasures.  Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't make any sense why you would "experiment" with CM on a "few" control questions.  What did you hope to accomplish with this techique?  Since you experimented with a few questions, you really had nothing to lose by employing full CM.  If you had done this, the outcome of your examination might have been different.   

Good luck to you in the future.  I think you'll know what to do next time.   

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #21 - Dec 10th, 2003 at 1:27am
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Marty-

Another good question, but one in which I can only answer in retrospect. Also, a difficult one, indeed......as I am required to psychoanalyze myself-a task which is biased, at best.

But to answer your question, and to put it in simpler terms, I think that having read TLBTLD, and having an understanding of the purpose of the 'control' questions MAY have resulted in stronger unconscious physiological responses. In fact, on another note-I daresay that having read TLBTLD  heightened my anxiety about false positives, and may have increased the chances of my own failure, based on that anxiety. Hindsight is 20/20.

Kona-

You are right. My use of CM's on only a couple of 'control' questions makes no sense. I had no plan, first of all, to use CM's during the 'test'. It was a conscious decision not to employ them not only due to ethics (which I am not sure I could use as a valid excuse anyway) but primarily because I had not practiced and perfected them enough to believe they would go unnoticed and be effective. I tried them out on a couple questions just for the hell of it to see if I could do it unnoticed. Whether they influenced the test is a question which I will never know the answer to. Also, the official results of my examination have yet to be seen. I just have a strong suspicion that I failed......................but who knows? I will post the results if and when I get them. And I suspect that there will be no 'next time'. I suggest to all concerned with FBI employment that they read "The Bureau" by Ronald Kessler-it will open your collective eyes, if nothing else.

Regards,

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #22 - Dec 10th, 2003 at 2:06am
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...I think that having read TLBTLD, and having an understanding of the purpose of the 'control' questions MAY have resulted in stronger unconscious physiological responses.
Interesting possibility. I can kinda see how that may occur.
Quote:
In fact, on another note-I daresay that having read TLBTLD  heightened my anxiety about false positives, and may have increased the chances of my own failure, based on that anxiety. Hindsight is 20/20.
Very possible. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this as I am trying to get a feel for the spectrum of responses people have to minimize my own a-priori bias.

-Marty
  

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #23 - Dec 10th, 2003 at 5:39am
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Also, the official results of my examination have yet to be seen. I just have a strong suspicion that I failed......................but who knows? I will post the results if and when I get them.



Oh, I didn't realize that.  Well, there's still a chance you may have passed.  Don't give up the ship quite yet!!  Definitely post your results here, because you may be the first here to conquer the polygraph with.....dare I say "partial countermeasures."  Good luck.

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #24 - Dec 16th, 2003 at 8:51pm
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The results are in. I failed. Now it's time to write the appeal letter and request all pertinent documentation relating to my application. For those who have not actually seen a DQ letter, here is a representation of mine. 

Dear Mr. Undesirable,  Wink

This is to advise you that our conditional offer of appointment dated XX/XX/XXXX, is hereby rescinded.

Although your desire to become affiliated with this Bureau is appreciated, we are unable to further process your application, based on the results of your polygraph examination on XX/XX/XXXX. As you are aware, all applicants for FBI employment must successfully pass a pre-employment polygraph examination. The results of your polygraph examination were not within acceptable parameters.

I know that this decision will be disappointing to you, but trust that you understand the FBI's position in this matter.

                                         Sincerely yours,

                                          Blah blah blah blah

I am composing my letter, and requesting all my applicant information including polygraph charts and videotapes. Any advice from the group?

Another victim of false positives.

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #25 - Dec 17th, 2003 at 2:39am
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sorry to hear.
yup, sounds like the standard letter; I got one.

I'm waiting a bit before I request all my files (thinking it takes a few weeks to process my "dissent" letter and close my file, etc.) via the FOIA process.

For "experienced users":
Is there such a recommended "wait" time after DQ-ing?or does it not matter when a request is made?
thx
  
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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #26 - Dec 17th, 2003 at 3:16am
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Yeah, I have two of them!  Keep it.  Someday your grandkids will have a good laugh that there was ever a time when we relied so heavily on this nonsense.

By then -- most probably after a few more Robert Hanssen-style episodes at the Bureau -- you may find it comical, too.

PS: You may not want to bother appealing.  You may request documentation, file a letter or protest, etc.  But my hypothesis is basically that they only bear the expense of multiple tests because they assume examinees will attempt countermeasures (just like they assume lies on probable-lie questions), and therefore they consider it a chance to learn more about the CMs in use.  If being the subject of such an encounter sounds fun, more power to you.  I think the chance of success on a second test is very, very slim.
  
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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #27 - Dec 17th, 2003 at 4:56am
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Undesirable, 

Sorry to hear about your results.

If you can appeal the results, and get a re-test, then why wouldn't you?  You have absolutely nothing to lose.  What's the worst thing that can happen if they fail you again?  You're right back where you are now, without a job offer.   

Look at it this way.......if you get the re-test, use countermeasures and pass, doesn't this put you in a better situation than where you are right now?  Would you rather go through the rest of your life knowing that you might have had a chance to rectify the situation, and did nothing?  The choice is ultimately yours to make.   

Good luck.

Kona
  
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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #28 - Dec 17th, 2003 at 6:31pm
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Kona-

I'm sending a Privacy Act request for all my records, and requesting Director Mueller to grant me a re-examination not necessarily to obtain a position with the FBI, but to ensure that when my current security clearance comes up for adjudicative review sometime in the future, that my FBI records don't reflect unfavorably upon review. This is not to say that I have a better chance of passing a second polygraph, rather, I intend to use full CM's this time if granted a re-test which may or may not give me a better chance at passing. Besides, I already have a decent job making good money, and I don't want to necessarily move out of state and take a pay cut just to be associated with the Federal Bureau of Interpretation. If I fail a re-test however, that would, I suspect, be double jeopardy when it comes time to reviewing my current clearance. Since my position requires a clearance, I suspect I would be out of a job if I had the results of 2 polygraph examinations that both concluded I was deceptive when answering questions regarding drug use and sales. This would also lead me to believe that under the circumstances, I would be under virtually double the anxiety about passing a second time, which in and of itself, without using CM's, would almost guarantee failure. So to answer your question, yes I have a lot to lose. Not only my current clearance and ultimately, my job, but I will not let the Federal Bureau of Intimidation get away with an affront to my integrity and honesty. I'll keep you informed........

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Re: FBI polygraph experience
Reply #29 - Dec 17th, 2003 at 6:31pm
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Kona-

I'm sending a Privacy Act request for all my records, and requesting Director Mueller to grant me a re-examination not necessarily to obtain a position with the FBI, but to ensure that when my current security clearance comes up for adjudicative review sometime in the future, that my FBI records don't reflect unfavorably upon review. This is not to say that I have a better chance of passing a second polygraph, rather, I intend to use full CM's this time if granted a re-test which may or may not give me a better chance at passing. Besides, I already have a decent job making good money, and I don't want to necessarily move out of state and take a pay cut just to be associated with the Federal Bureau of Interpretation. If I fail a re-test however, that would, I suspect, be double jeopardy when it comes time to reviewing my current clearance. Since my position requires a clearance, I suspect I would be out of a job if I had the results of 2 polygraph examinations that both concluded I was deceptive when answering questions regarding drug use and sales. This would also lead me to believe that under the circumstances, I would be under virtually double the anxiety about passing a second time, which in and of itself, without using CM's, would almost guarantee failure. So to answer your question, yes I have a lot to lose. Not only my current clearance and ultimately, my job, but I will not let the Federal Bureau of Intimidation get away with an affront to my integrity and honesty. I'll keep you informed........

Undesirable
  
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