Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam (Read 42610 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #15 - Aug 19th, 2003 at 11:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Gino and George

Looks like the APA fellow took the winds out of your sail.  Too bad, seems like you guys were getting pretty worked up.  I doubt you saw the humor in his presentation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #16 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 1:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr. Gordon,

You write:

Quote:
This speaker was being facetious in the opening of his presentation, and the remarks in my article were meant to indicate to everyone how scary such behavior would be.  I agree with one of your responders that such behavior would be like "planting evidence," it would be extremely unethical, unprofessional, and I am sure would result in expulsion from the APA.


Thank you for clarifying this. Was the point that the speaker was trying to convey with humor that just as it would be unethical for polygraph examiners to use techniques that ensure failing charts, so too is it unethical for polygaph subjects to use techniques that ensure passing charts? Or was it something else? (Skip Webb has e-mailed me that the remarks were "apparently based upon statements made on [on AntiPolygraph.org] in the past about the R&I polygraph technique," but I'm not sure which ones.)

Quote:
There is always concern about sites like yours that offer suggestions on how to beat the polygraph.  I am of the opinion that if those who supposedly taught it actually knew, they would all have government jobs and top secret clearances.


Wishful thinking, Mr. Gordon. It was the experience of being falsely accused of deception based on polygraph chart readings that led Gino Scalabrini and I to research polygraphy, and ultimately to co-author The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. We didn't just make up the countermeasure information in our book. We based it on sources including peer-reviewed studies by Professor Charles R. Honts and collaborators and DoDPI documentation.

We know what we're talking about, and it scares the polygraph community. That's why Paul M. Menges, who teaches DoDPI's countermeasure course for polygraph examiners, has recently suggested that providing such information to the public should be made illegal.

That the polygraph community is very concerned about the kinds of countermeasures described on AntiPolygraph.org is also supported by the fact that the topic of countermeasures has been on the agenda at most polygraph organization seminars held since we went on-line (including the American Polygraph Association seminars for at least the last three years running).

That the polygraph community lacks confidence in its ability to detect countermeasures is supported by the game of "hide-the-countermeasure-studies" that DoDPI and the CIA played with the National Academy of Sciences (see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, 3rd ed., p. 160) and by the fact that no polygrapher has yet mustered the courage to accept Dr. Richardson's polygraph countermeasure challenge (569 days and counting).

Quote:
However, I will give your readers the secret.  If you are going to lie on a polygraph test the best way to "beat" it, is don't take it.


Your sharing this "secret" suggests a lack of confidence in your ability to detect countemeasures....
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
A Note from Skip Webb
Reply #17 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 1:44pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
American Polygraph Association past president Skip Webb, who is now the chairman of the APA's board of directors, sent me a courteous reply to the inquiry I had e-mailed to Mr. Knefelkamp (and cc'd to other APA officers). I think it is appropriate to reproduce it here:

Quote:
Dear Mr. Maschke,

Thank you for your note.  I think that Mr. Gordon's post on your site explained that his comment and that made by the person providing the presentation at our annual seminar was made in jest and meant to be humorous. There certainly was no such presentation on our program.  The remark was, by the way, apparently based upon statements made on your site in the past about the R&I polygraph technique.  I assure you that the APA would never condone the "rigging" of a polygraph test.  The word "rigging" was yours and not that of either Mr. Gordon or the lecturer.  Thank you for allowing me to clarify this misunderstanding.  I enjoy reading the comments on your site from time to time as do many of my colleagues. Your site contains a wealth of information for polygraph examiners about the people we test.

Sincerely,

Milton O. Webb, Jr.
Chairman of the Board of Directors,
American Polygraph Association


I agree that Mr. Gordon's post adequately explained his commentary in The Polygraph Chronicles, and am very glad that the misunderstanding has now been clarified.

If anyone knows upon what statements about the R&I polygraph technique made on AntiPolygraph.org the remark was based, I'd be interested in knowing more about this.

I would note that although Mr. Gordon did not use the term "rigging," I believe it is an apt characterization of "techniques that ensured DI charts, when you already new [sic] the examinee was DI, and only wanted leverage for a confession."

Finally, I would invite Mr. Webb and other polygraph examiners who visit AntiPolygraph.org from time to time to consider participating in the discussions on this message board. If you believe any arguments put forth here to be unfair, misleading, out of context, or just plain wrong, please don't hesitate to say so. There is no need to "grin and bear it." Your views are welcome.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #18 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 2:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George

You know I would never grin and bear it.  Regarding Drew's clock.  I thought I told you guys to turn it off.  Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Tick Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #19 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 3:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme,

You can turn off the polygraph countermeasure challenge clock by stepping up to the plate and accepting the challenge.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #20 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 6:35pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Saidme,

You can turn off the polygraph countermeasure challenge clock by stepping up to the plate and accepting the challenge.


I would think Saidme, with his oft-stated ability to detect countermeasures, would be the perfect man for the job...

Skeptic
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #21 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 6:45pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George

As I've stated before, we (examiners) do it day in and day out.  Regarding the challenge; I've already offered my services to Dr Drew. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SecondChancePoly
Guest


Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #22 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 7:28pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!!!  Roll Eyes
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #23 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 8:04pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme wrote on Aug 20th, 2003 at 6:45pm:
George

As I've stated before, we (examiners) do it day in and day out....


So why can't you and your fellow polygraphers demonstrate this claimed ability to outsiders?
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #24 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 8:06pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
PLEASE STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!!! ?Roll Eyes


SecondChancePoly,

This troll (Saidme) is proving our points in ways we could not possibly hope to.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #25 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 9:57pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George

Name calling seems out of character for you.  Relax, don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #26 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 11:23pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme wrote on Aug 20th, 2003 at 9:57pm:
George

Name calling seems out of character for you.  Relax, don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. Wink


Hmmm...is it "name-calling" to describe someone's actions accurately?

Skeptic
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mr. Truth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 194
Joined: Aug 4th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #27 - Aug 20th, 2003 at 11:54pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Polygraphy is like trolling for the truth. It is out there, but you don't know for sure where it is or what's being done to cover it up. Sometimes you come up empty-handed; sometimes you strike pay dirt. Some people get caught up in the net; smart swimmers know how to avoid being caught.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Canadian Crusader
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 80
Joined: Jul 8th, 2003
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #28 - Aug 21st, 2003 at 1:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George et al,

Did you happen to see the number of views for this thread alone?  Over 2500.  Is that a computer error or did you strike a cord with someone?  2500 sure seems out of place considering the replies and other threads.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam
Reply #29 - Aug 21st, 2003 at 1:50am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The 2500 views appear to be accurate. Seems like this one was big news within the polygraph community.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Polygrapher Teaches How to Rig Exam

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X