Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Pre-employment test (Read 10139 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #15 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:00am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme wrote on Aug 13th, 2003 at 2:46am:
Skeptic

Regarding specific issue testing (which is what I do).  Your coveted NAS study (which I have no regard for) states something to the effect that specific issue testing is "far above chance" but less than perfect.  Is far above chance 90%, 95%, 98%.   I think I would take any one of those numbers to the bank.  Let's even concede 85%, still pretty damn good.


The actual finding was:

Quote:
CONCLUSION: Notwithstanding the limitations of the quality of the empirical research and the limited ability to generalize to realworld settings, we conclude that in populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.


-- NAS Report, Executive Summary, p. 4

You'll note a couple of things.  First of all, they don't give a reliability rate, period.  Second, they caveat the statement regarding the populations that are being discussed (e.g. subjects "untrained in countermeasures").  Third, the NAS is, in the above, specifically talking about polygraph research -- exactly the sort you seem to disdain as unrepresentative of the polygraph in the real world.

Finally, if you take an 85% accuracy rate yet hold 100% confidence in your results, you're talking about barking up the wrong tree 15% of the time.  That may sound OK, but we're talking about an awful lot of misdirected investigations and wrongfully accused people.

Quote:
Let me caveat this next statement so your co-horts don't take this out of context.  The most recent (and more recent) shuttle disasters were horrendous.  America lost a lot of great astronauts in both instances.  The shuttle and the technology driving those shuttles is awesome.  The people working on them are extraordinarily bright.  Were the shuttles 100%?  Obviously not.  Would I volunteer to ride the next shuttle to space?  In a heartbeat.  Anytime you factor in the human element you've got room for error.  Polygraph is no different.  It's pretty damn good but face it, nothing's perfect.


Nope.  But we're always trying to make things better.  If that means a system is fatally flawed, we change it out.  There's no way the Shuttle would fly if engineers gave it only a 75% chance of reaching orbit.  And though your courage is remarkable, I sure as heck wouldn't fly under those conditions, either.

Skeptic
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #16 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:45am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
If you're trying to make things better, than what's your answer to polygraph?  What should we replace it with?  Should we discontinue it's use until the George's of the world come up with something?  I think not.  I'll use it until something better comes along.  We've got cases to resolve.   Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 549
Joined: Jun 24th, 2002
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #17 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 8:11am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme wrote on Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:45am:
If you're trying to make things better, than what's your answer to polygraph?  What should we replace it with?  Should we discontinue it's use until the George's of the world come up with something?  I think not.  I'll use it until something better comes along.  We've got cases to resolve.   Wink


In my opinion, the polygraph and belief in it are so deeply flawed, in most of its current uses, that doing without completely would be an improvement.

As an interrogation prop for going after criminal subjects for confessions, I'm sure it's quite adequate.  But to actually put faith in any existing technique to discern truth from falsehood is (again in my opinion) wrongheaded and worse than nothing.

Skeptic
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Saidme
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 311
Joined: Jun 11th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #18 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:19pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
You're not getting off the hook that easy.  If you're so hell bent on removing polygraph then you need to come up with an adequate solution/replacement.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Joined: Jun 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #19 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 4:07pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme wrote on Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:19pm:
You're not getting off the hook that easy.  If you're so hell bent on removing polygraph then you need to come up with an adequate solution/replacement.  


Thomas Sowell addressed this question perfectly when he wrote,

"No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: 'But what would you replace it with?' When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with?"
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Anonymous
Guest


Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #20 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 4:49pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thomas Sowell made another observation that perfectly caputures the effect that this website is having on polygraph operators:

"It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites."

Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Zurren
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 10th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #21 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 4:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I didn't think my post would generate this kind of attention. 

Well for whom cares, I practiced these countermeasures.  I did so on a similar chair as the one I would be on and I practiced in front of a full body mirror.  They can not physically be detected unless you really screw up.  It was as if I was just sitting there motionless.  Now the countermeasures effect was obviously (to me anyways) working on the machine also.  How could I be asked the same questions and answer the same way but have a totally different result?  Because they worked?

The machine can be beat.  The machine has been beat.  The machine beats both the right and the wrong people.  These are lives that are being messed with here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box s-X-e
User
**
Offline



Posts: 25
Joined: Apr 24th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #22 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 6:16am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Zurren wrote on Aug 13th, 2003 at 4:55pm:
I didn't think my post would generate this kind of attention.  

Well for whom cares, I practiced these countermeasures.  I did so on a similar chair as the one I would be on and I practiced in front of a full body mirror.  They can not physically be detected unless you really screw up.  It was as if I was just sitting there motionless.  Now the countermeasures effect was obviously (to me anyways) working on the machine also.  How could I be asked the same questions and answer the same way but have a totally different result?  Because they worked?

The machine can be beat.  The machine has been beat.  The machine beats both the right and the wrong people.  These are lives that are being messed with here.


Zurren, congratulations on passing your polygraph exam. I'm curious about a couple things regarding your examination. First, what countermeasures did you use? All physical, all mental, some of each, etc? Second, did you lie to any relevant questions? I'd like to know how much effort you used in applying your countermeasures and whether or not you had to overcome any strong reactions you might have given on relevant questions (i.e., if you lied).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Canadian Crusader
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 80
Joined: Jul 8th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #23 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 8:06pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Saidme,

The fact that you make an analogy between the polygraph and the space shuttle tells me that you have absolutely no scientific background whatsoever.  Your analogys, and inability to use them properly, tell me that you don't really understand the science (what little science there is) behind the machine, or that it has no scientific validity at all in detecting deception or differentiating truth.

You think it works based soley on the confessions you obtain.  If you think your charts are indications of deception or truth I think you are either brainwashed or delusional. 

Better purchase a new pair of boots and take that uniform out of mothballs because I feel you might have to go back to humping a beat to pay the bills.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Zurren
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Aug 10th, 2003
Re: Pre-employment test
Reply #24 - Aug 16th, 2003 at 1:42am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hey s-X-e

To answer some of yor questions,  I used both physical and mental.  I applied the countermeasures in the way I understood it.  Which is, use the countermeasures on the irrelavent questions and did nothing on the relavent ones.  Actually there was only one question I was deseptive about.  The countermeasures worked.  I think it made me more nervious knowing I was applying countermeasues rather then being deseptive.  I also did apply the countermeasures throughout the whole test.  I didn't want to slack off and have the test start to look odd.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pre-employment test

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X