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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph is a fraud (Read 35197 times)
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #45 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 10:32am
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To Everyone,
It seems what PeterFonda was asking here is an age old question about human redemption.  When is a person redeemable as a member of society?
I can only answer this philosophical pondering for myself.

It makes logical sense to me that if a person is a first time offender, no matter the crime, and if they show remorse and EMPATHY for their hideous actions, then they are redeemable.
If a person is a multiple offender of said crime and uses cognitive thinking distortions, i.e. defense mechanisms, instead of owning up to their behavior, then they should be pelted about the head and neck with small to medium pointed rocks, or at least be locked up for the rest of their natural lives and only served bread and water.

-OkieBoy
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #46 - Aug 13th, 2003 at 3:21pm
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Okieboy

Define "redeemable."
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #47 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 2:09am
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PeterFonda,
I erred in my previous post, thus the percentage I gave is incorrect. That is the percentage of offenses committed by a family member or close acquaintance, but not necessarily a parent.
Some percentages for sex offenses with victims age 0-17:
78.4% of victims are female
96% of offenders are male
79.5% of offenses occur in the home
4% of offenses are committed by females, but when limiting the data to victims under age 6, the percentage jumps to 12%

The data doesn't indicate the detail you seek, but the percentages would seem to confirm that most offenses that involved a parent would be father/daughter. But one must also consider offenses committed by siblings, cousins, grandparents, etc. These are less common, except that there is a slightly higher chance(+.2%) that an offense in-home against a victim under age 6 will be committed by a juvenile age 12-17 rather than an adult age 25-34.

OkieBoy,
Not bad on the "philosophy". Glad to see that you understand that one screw-up does not make a person incurable. 
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #48 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 6:42am
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Saidme,
the Oxford Dictionary of Current English defines Redeemable as the adjective version for redeem.  The verb redeem can mean 1) Make up for the faults or bad aspects of, 2) save from sin or evil, 3) fulfill (a promise), or 4) regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment.

I like meaning number four.  If a person is "redeemable", then by going through the hoops of the system for their "payment" (therapy, probation or jail time, and court costs and fees) in exchange they are eventually given back their position of freedom in society.
If a person is "unredeemable" then no matter what they could ever possibly do they would not be allowed back in the general population of society.  Their crimes were too severe to allow "redemption".

Lets look at my case.  I committed indecent exposure.  I have served my three years of probation, I have not re-offended, I have paid my court costs and fees, and now after my probation I consider myself redeemed.
I am now, again a valid, functioning, positive member of society.  I am no longer a danger to anyone.
I have regained back the priviledges taken away from me by probation (the right to drink alchohol and stay out past curfew and live without a probation officer looking over my shoulder).
If I should ever re-offend, then by all means lock me away for the rest of my natural life.  I deserve it.  That is how positive I am that I will never re-offend.

-Okieboy
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #49 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 6:56am
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Okieboy,

I think you may be comparing yourself, as a person to the monsters. In my state peeing in public is not a crime as long as the person peeing is not attempting to arouse others. I can't count the times I have been forced to pee off the back of my boat, and could have possibly been seen by a female in the far distance. Probably was seen, but as I said before this is not a crime in my state.

Okieboy, it is unfortunate that you have been up close and personal with these monsters. But being the case, do you really believe that a person that could fantasize about a young child and then carry out the act, could not be criminally mentally insane? Be it one time? That being the case, could you truly open up your door to this person if you had a child? I think not..But the general public is expected to forgive and forget.. Right?

I agree with you that I want the best of the best polygraphers assigned to these people..If a confession gets them off the street, I am happy.


Orolan,

Hopefully you recieved my email, and I am assuming that I was correct in my assumption. That being said, we will probably tend to disagree on some of my views concerning this subject..

Peter
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #50 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 6:25pm
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>>>do you really believe that a person that could fantasize about a young child and then carry out the act, could not be criminally mentally insane?

You are asking a very valid and observant question.  There are two answers to it.  Yes and No.  There are two types of people who commit these crimes.  The criminally insane and the person who is merely using cognitive distortions and can be taught to think properly again through therapy.  The first step in Modern Cognitive Behavorial therapy is to recognize which kind of person the individual is.  If it is assessed that they are criminally insane, then the recommendation is sent to the courts that they not enter probation or therapy and be sent to an institution.  If they are treatable then they are given the chance at treatment and redemption.

By assuming that all people who commit an act like say child molestation are automatically criminally insane and untreatable goes against what the top scientific minds in this country are saying.  
That would be like saying everyone who commits murder is criminally insane and should never be let out of jail.
Let me ask you this PeterFonda.  Say you had an Uncle who committed murder in a fit of jealous rage after finding his wife in bed with another man.  After serving fifty years in prison and being let out again would you let that Uncle around your family?
Say your father killed a man or woman in a DUI incident and went to jail for thirty years and was let out a broken, changed man.  Would you let your father visit your family?
If you answer is yes to either of those questions, is murder no less of a crime than child molestation?

Not every child molestation is merely because a criminally insane individual is sexually aroused by children and can never be cured of that thinking.  Some men as a result of extreme stress factors and extreme cognitive distortions let themselves start thinking a certain way and allowing behaviors to follow that are deviant.  Here is an example.
Joe Schmoe is fired from his job.
His wife nags at him constantly.
He goes home and looks at porn on the computer.
He starts looking at hot teen stripper sites.
He starts fantasizing and masturbating over sixteen year old girls on the hot teen stripper site.
His life gets even more stressed when his wife starts fighting with him.  He doesn't know how to deal with the stress...he is somewhat of a moron.
So he decideds to go out and get him some sixteen-year-old hotty like he sees on the internet.
He sees some little fourteen-to-seventeen year old girl at a park and approaches her.
Angry at his wife, angry at the world, and stressed out of his mind, and horny from the internet porn he rapes the girl.

Is this man criminally insane, or merely responding to his environmental stressors in a cognitively distorted manner?

I'm not saying that this man shouldn't go to jail for a very long time.  I am merely pointing out that he is not "insane".  He hears no voices, he sees no hallucinations, he has no actiosn that label him criminally insane.  He is just a fool who has made a very, very bad decision and who has very, very distorted thinking.  Hopefully, after fourty years of intense cognitive behavorial therapy and hard time he will come to realize what the cognitive distortions were that led up to his behavior.
If he got out of jail after that one offense and could tell me his deviant cycle, explain what his cognitive distortions were, tell me his plan of action and coping methods so that he doesn't slip back into his cycle of deviant behavior, then yes, I would let him around my family.

Sorry for the long answer to a short question you asked.

-OkieBoy
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2003 at 10:59pm by OkieBoy »  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #51 - Aug 14th, 2003 at 7:30pm
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OkieBoy,
Very good. I like your reasoning. There is one other factor involved in some child molestations, and that is curiosity. There are offenders who wanted to know if they could be aroused by a child and in what way.

« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2003 at 10:29pm by orolan »  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #52 - Aug 16th, 2003 at 1:57am
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Not to move away from the subject here(much), given that a first time offender that has never offended any minor....that means virtual.......if I take the 5th on the poly, what is the best/average/worst they can/will do?

Fear of a pseudoscience? Yep. If they could read my mind.....it would fine. They "status quo" like to twist the real meaning into THE MEANING (as they see it).

Comments?

Aldo
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #53 - Aug 16th, 2003 at 7:21am
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Huxley,
What they do depends on your situation.
If you are a registered sex offender on probation and are required to take the polygraph due to probation rules, then your P.O. could put a motion before the Judge to revoke your probation.
It would most likely pass and you would be sent to prison.
But, even while you were in prison, your lawyer could fight the revocation of probation with an appeal, and like the recent case in Virginia, you might actually win and be let free.
In case you don't know about the recent case in Virginia, a sex offender on probation had his probation revoked for failing the polygraph and was sent to jail, but his lawyer filed an appeal and the judge ruled that polygraph results are not enough hard-core information to revoke someone's probation and the sex offender was let free.

  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #54 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 5:34pm
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Situation is that no where in my probation does it state that a poly graph is required. They embedded that in the sex offender course of which I'm an intrerstate transfer from Okla to Texas. The additional paper work that stated that was pushed on my after the court decision. The probation office set me back to the court(without my lawyer) to sign the "2nd" form that required the additional testing. Again, nowhere did it say poly graph. So, what's my options here?

Aldo
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #55 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 6:01pm
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Huxley,
Under the Interstate Corrections Compact, Texas is allowed to impose any conditions on you that it would otherwise impose on its' own probationers, with proper notification of the sentencing court. Sounds like they did this, evidenced by the 2nd form you had to go back and sign.

Keep in mind that your request to transfer is what opened you up to this. Your desire to relocate carried some additional requirements that you had to follow, like it or not. Texas will no doubt tell you that "if you don't like our rules, then you can go back to Oklahoma".

You can't "refuse" the polygraph test. If you do, you will be discharged from the treatment program. This will trigger a violation for "failing to successfully complete treatment". You might also risk the same if you constantly "fail" the polygraph, all the while proclaiming that you are "cured" of your deviant desires.

I hesitate to offer any advice about "beating" the polygraph, because I know nothing of you or your offense. If you did something that was wrong, you must first deal with that within yourself. Much like AA, admitting to yourself and others that you have a problem is the first step to rehabilitation.
  

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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #56 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 9:41pm
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Thing is I did live in Texas, it was an Oklahoma sting. I did not ask for transfer, that was where I live.

Aldo
  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #57 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 9:45pm
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Oh, forgot, and if I take the poly as required and take the 5th?

Aldo

BTW, never touched any child, just in the mind and that's aginst the law....although I never believed this to be a police stae, it is.

  
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #58 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 9:55pm
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Huxley,
I know what you're saying, but under the law it is still a "transfer". The conviction is in Oklahoma, thus any sentence handed down is presumed to be served in that state. Since you lived in Texas, the transfer was somewhat "automatic", but the law still looks at it as having been at your request. After all, you could have taken up residence in Oklahoma and served your sentence there.
You can't sit for the polygraph and plead the 5th on various questions. The examiner will stop the test immediately and send you packing with a "failed to cooperate" note in your file. That will get you kicked out of treatment, etc.
I assume by your comment that you got involved in some type of "discussion" with an "underage person" in a chatroom who turned out to be some perverted cop, or you obtained some child pornography via e-mail?
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: Polygraph is a fraud
Reply #59 - Aug 17th, 2003 at 11:18pm
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yep
  
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