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First Pollygraph coming up
Jul 20th, 2003 at 9:40am
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I am late teens, and was recently placed on probation. I was convicted of assaulting a police officer while under the influence of alcohol. Now  I am going to be asked if I drank while on probation. Now should I fail this test, what is to happen? According to the rules I can be incarcerated up to sixty days. Now does this usually happen? I am attending college and recently got a job, if I should be incarcerated I would have to drop out of school. I was told I would be taking this test after I passed an alcohol/drug evaluation with flying colors, and my P.O. thinks I lied. Anyone with experience anything like this know what will probably happen? Im thinking she might just make me take outpatient alcohol classes, is it likely i will receive community service, jail time or further probation? I am in Washington STate.  Thanks for any help or advice.
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #1 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 11:39am
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Post conviction polygraphs, in must States, can not be used as evidence of probation violations. So don't concern yourself with it. Thats the worst thing to.

The poly is nothing more than a psycological poly designed to induce an admission of wrong doing. You will must likely be told " You showed deception on the question concerning........ can you explain this to me?"

Look the man straight in the eyes and say "I'm sorry but I answered all your question truthfully is there anything else you care to ask of me? Ok, thank you very much and have a nice day. Than get up and leave.

In other words present a don't give a shit, it doesn't really matter to me kind've attitude. Now remember if you have been deemed deceptive the results may not be used to prove a violation of probation, thats not to say your PO will not make you life hell.

But so what cause your clean and really trying to put your life together. Right? Grin
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #2 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 9:59pm
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Sam,
What sie tells you is correct. The questions, answers and charts from the poygraph typically can't be used. What can be used is your admission to wrongdoing in the post-test interrogation.
So, like sie said, tell the examiner "See ya", and hit the door. Don't give him/her a chance to manipulate you by hanging around and "discussing" your results.
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #3 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 10:21pm
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sie wrote on Jul 20th, 2003 at 11:39am:
But so what cause your clean and really trying to put your life together. Right? Grin

I havent drank in a long time, and I am doing better in school this quarter. Sounded like you were being sarcastic, just to let u and everyone know, there are a few good people, and people who really are trying to set things right that fear lie detection.
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #4 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 10:27pm
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How would I find out if polygraphs are admissable in probation violation hearings in washington state, and if they arent admissable in most states, whats the point of them besides trying to get a confession? I spoke with a public defender who said that evidence rules are 'lax in probation violation hearings', so that makes me wonder, anywhere I can find out for sure?
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #5 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 10:27pm
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Sam,
Great that you have "mended your ways". Take your polygraph with confidence, and don't buy any of that "you had trouble with #5" BS the examiner is liable to give you. And again, don't hang around for the interrogation. Good luck Smiley
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #6 - Jul 20th, 2003 at 10:48pm
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Just saw Terminator 3, and as Arnie said, "I'm back!"

Hey Sam, when you say , "I haven't drank in a long time...", can you define "long time"? 

Is that a long time as in you haven't had a drink since you took after the police officer, or a long time as in the last few days?

How about this simple question, have you drank any alcoholic beverages since you were put on probation?

Good luck with your polygraph, you'll need it.  However, when in doubt, try sucking air through your asshole!

Just in case, that's the hole down between your butt cheeks, not he one between your lips.

Damn, I love this site!!!

BATMAN

  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #7 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 4:45am
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Batman,
Nice to see that you haven't lost any of your wit and charm in your absence Wink
Welcome back.
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #8 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 10:40am
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Quote:
just to let u and everyone know, there are a few good people, and people who really are trying to set things right that fear lie detection.


Everyone fears lie detection. Its the polygraph that I don't fear cause I know it can't detect deception. Once you overcome "Fear" of detection they become cake walks. It really is laughable. Cheesy
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #9 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 4:27pm
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Sam,
Quote:
How would I find out if polygraphs are admissable in probation violation hearings in washington state, and if they arent admissable in most states, whats the point of them besides trying to get a confession? I spoke with a public defender who said that evidence rules are 'lax in probation violation hearings', so that makes me wonder, anywhere I can find out for sure?

The point of the polygraph is the state wants you to admit that you have a problem, and face it head on. Sort of like going to AA and doing the "My name is Sam and I'm an alcoholic" thing. So they use the poly to scare you into admitting that you have this problem. Ostensibly they only want to help you, thus the general restriction on using the results for a VOP. That's where the intent of the Legislature and the desires of the Dept. of Corrections part company.
I can find no reference in the RCW to polygraphing probationers. RCW 9.95.210 provides for various conditions, none of which include polygraphing. The statute goes on to say "The secretary of corrections will promulgate rules and regulations for the conduct of the person during the term of probation." However, I find nothing in the Administrative Code showing where the DOC has promulgated any rules governing probationers.
The Administrative Code, at WAC 381-40-110, does however contain parole conditions, one of which is:"As a term and condition of parole, the board may impose a requirement that the parolee take a polygraph examination." This same paragraph goes on to state "Failure to pass the polygraph examination shall not be a basis for parole suspension or revocation."
Since you're not on parole, the above theoretically wouldn't apply. But parole and probation are controlled by the same state agency, and supervision is by the same people. In the absence of a codified procedure governing polygraphs for probationers, a court should look to a similar situation for guidance. That would be parole conditions.
As for evidence in probation revocations, the prosecution has only to prove the violation "by the preponderance of the evidence", rather than the more restrictive "beyond reasonable doubt" used in criminal court. Preponderance just means that the prosecution's evidence must be more believable than your defense, regardless of how implausible it may be.
If you have further doubts, seek out an attorney (not a public pretender!) and see what they think. Might cost you $50.00 for a consultation, but it would be worth it to know.

  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #10 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 5:28pm
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Orolan

You're a real knucklehead.  You write:

"The point of the polygraph is the state wants you to admit that you have a problem"

Sam's conviction pretty much identifies a problem, unless it was a corrupt court, jury, bad defense attorney, etc.....  As a law abiding citizen, wouldn't you want Sam to complete his probation as dictated by the state?  Maybe the local prison (where you live) should just open up the doors and set everyone free.  There's no real need for them to complete their state appointed sentences, is there?
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #11 - Jul 21st, 2003 at 8:21pm
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Saidme,
You really should come out of your little poly room once in a while and see what is happening in the rest of the world, particularly in your own chosen field of expertise.
Post-conviction maintenance polygraphs are given primarily to those whose convictions are related to drugs, alcohol or sex. All three of these areas involve compulsions and addictions that the offender may not be willing to admit to themselves they have, let alone to others. The polygraph is used to try to gain this admission, if there is one to be made, and it is simply another tool in the therapy process.
One statute, related to sex offenders, reads as such:"As part of a treatment program, participation at least annually in polygraph examinations to obtain information necessary for risk management and treatment and to reduce the sex offender's denial mechanisms." This is the prevailing attitude amongst therapists and legislatures, and this is why many states have maintenance polygraphs. They aren't giving them to solve as-yet undiscovered crimes. The trouble with the maintenance polygraphs is they are similar to the tests given for pre-employment screening. With no known specific incident to investigate, it becomes a "fishing expedition" full of very generalized questions related to the underlying conviction.

As for Sam, yes his conviction identifies a problem. He assaulted a police officer. So do plenty of other people. And yes, he should serve out his probation sentence as required. I don't advocate anything different.
The fact that Sam was under the influence of alcohol at the time is the issue here. Does Sam have a drinking problem? Is he an alcoholic? Was the situation one of having a bad day combined with having a few beers with the guys after work? We don't know the answers to these questions. Neither does the state. Hence the treatment program. If Sam is an alcoholic or susceptible to performing acts of violence while under the influence, the treatment program is supposed to identify those issues and get Sam to acknowledge them to himself.
Your comment about throwing open the prison doors makes absolutely no sense in respect to my post. I don't see anything where I advocated that Sam or anybody else be excused from serving their sentence. I suspect you are upset because I did advocate that he avoid your precious post-test interrogation ???
Maybe you have been out of the loop too long. You should take a few refresher courses in criminal psychology, as things have changed since the 70's Smiley
  

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #12 - Jul 22nd, 2003 at 12:44am
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If I'm not mistaken these exams also identify offenders who continue to offend.  I suspect that might have little to do with the reason for post conviction polygraph examinations.  You know, a little deterrence. 

Regarding your comments about Sam.  I suspect you are in the rehabilitation or corrections field.  The rationalizations you discuss for Sam's behavior (bad day, beer, alcoholic) are of no interest to the law enforcement officer conducting the investigation.  Yes, we'll document that information but we're working with elements of proof to get a case before a jury.  It's not our job to get Sam to see the light and become a better person.  That's what rehabilitation programs are for. 

Regarding my "precious post-test interview."  Why does it bother you that law enforcement officers illicit confessions out of child molesters, rapists, murderers, and the like.  Do you advocate that kind of behavior?  I'm not sure whether you're in the corrections/rehabilitation field or in a correctional facility getting group therapy in rehabilitation program.  Hmmmm Wink
  
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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #13 - Jul 22nd, 2003 at 1:46am
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Saidme,
Knowing they are subject to periodic polygraphs may work as a deterrent for sex offenders, and I believe it does. The structure of the examinations needs some work, but that is for another thread.

In the case of drug and alcohol abusers, I don't see it offering any more of a deterrent than the standard random UA requirements. While easily defeated with advance warning, UA's are impossible to beat with regularity when given at random places and times. And in Sam's case the polygraph would hold no deterrent value, since he was not told in advance that he was subject to take one.

I am not in the rehabilitation or corrections field. You would be quite surprised to learn what I do for a living.

I understand that you are not into rehabilitation and you and your fellow criminal investigators care not about the underlying reasons for a person's crime. As you say, you want to get a case before the jury. That's fine.

Sam has already been before the jury (or entered a plea). The investigation is over, and he has now entered the rehabilitation phase. So the underlying factors are now important, not to an investigating officer, but to his probation officer and therapist.

It does not bother me that investigators get people to confess to crimes. Nor does it bother me that they use a polygraph machine to do it. After all, the polygraph is more humane than some other interrogation methods in widespread use in today's world. I am as pro law-and-order as the next guy.

What does bother me is that most of you refuse to admit that the machine does absolutely nothing. I have no doubt that your confession rate would not drop very much if you simply turned the machine off and conducted your examination and interview as usual. The examinee's fear and belief that the machine is telling you every time they lie is what makes the confessions possible.

And no, I'm not in a correctional institution, group therapy, rehabilitation program or any combination thereof Smiley
  

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Re: First Pollygraph coming up
Reply #14 - Jul 22nd, 2003 at 9:53am
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Saidme wrote on Jul 22nd, 2003 at 12:44am:
 

Regarding my "precious post-test interview."  Why does it bother you that law enforcement officers illicit confessions out of child molesters, rapists, murderers, and the like.


It bothers know one not even George when the polygraph is used by law enforcement during specific event criminal investigations.

What worries everyone is when a child molester  "passes" your screening test that shouldn't have ( false Negative), is giving a clean bill of health, is released from supervision and goes out and reoffends.

The therapists passes the buck to the polygrapher, "He/She passed a polygraph test. The polygrapher now claims that the polygraph is not 100% and now nobody wants the credit or should i say to take responsibility.

There's no more chest pounding going on about how the polygraph helps protect society from the likes of Pee Wee Hermin

Well, shit happens right?

« Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2003 at 10:28am by sie »  
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