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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) can this be right? (Read 21816 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Public Servant
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Re: can this be right?
Reply #45 - Jul 19th, 2003 at 8:52am
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WOW!  When I said attack at will, I never thought there'd be two more pages.  I think the discussion has run it's course (and perhaps degraded), so let me apologize if I did not respond to anyone's questions.  All seems to be covered.

I did want to comment on something sXe said
Quote:
Why would you think that? DNA testing, for example, while not 100% accurate, is highly unlikely to identify an innocent person, much less 11, for a single murder (or theft, or whatever).  


I'd agree that a DNA match pretty much says without a doubt that the person, whose DNA matched, left the source of evidence.   But this does not prove the person committed the crime.  If a man has sex with a woman then departs;  then someone else comes in and kills said woman, with minimal contact and/or leaving little of his own DNA, etc; who will now be the best suspect?  The innocent man left skin cells, hairs, and semen all over the decedent's body.  Given that this man is now undeniably connected to the scene, there is already a very strong case against him.  DNA is powerful evidence and if a shread of motive is found (sex leads to plenty of motive theories), this innocent man could be convicted.  And on the flip side, the lack of DNA evidence found at the scene obviously does not prove the guilty guy innocent, though one would likely be inclined to think so.

Because polygraph is recognized as less than 100%, no DI exam results would be presented as evidence of guilt in court.  Confessions can be admitted as evidence, but rarely will the result of any poly.  DI alone never put anyone in jail.  

Now do you think poly is more dangerous than DNA, given how they both are used?  Don't get me wrong, DNA evidence is great, but we must ensure we know what it actually proves, and does not prove.  Those parameters are fairly well set, to a safe zone, when it comes to criminal investigative polygraphy.

  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: can this be right?
Reply #46 - Jul 19th, 2003 at 9:16am
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Public Servant,

You write, in part:

Quote:
Because polygraph is recognized as less than 100%, no DI exam results would be presented as evidence of guilt in court.  Confessions can be admitted as evidence, but rarely will the result of any poly.  DI alone never put anyone in jail.


The reason polygraph results are generally not admissible as evidence in a court of law is not that it is less than 100%, but rather that it doesn't meet the judicial Daubert standard (or the previous Frye standard) for scientific evidence. See DaubertOnTheWeb.com.

In some cases, DI polygraph results have indeed been a key piece of "evidence" leading to conviction. For example, Floyd Fay was wrongly convicted of murder in Ohio in large part because he failed a stipulated polygraph examination. You'll find his case documented in the 2nd edition of Lykken's A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector. More recently, an inconclusive polygraph outcome and the Kafaesque interrogations that followed led to a navy cryptologist's wrongly being locked up for more than a year in pre-trial confinement before all charges were dropped. See Chapter 2 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for documentation of the case of Daniel M. King.
  

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Re: can this be right?
Reply #47 - Jul 19th, 2003 at 4:59pm
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Okay, here's the result.  My hubby met with his attorney this week. He did fail the test, even though the questions they asked relating to my crime were ones that he had no knowledge of at the time I was doing it, but does have knowledge of it now.  "Did you know your
wife was stealing money?" ...........he did not at the time I was
doing it, but it well aware now.   
No report was issued to us or the attorney, just the verbal from the
FBI.
  
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Re: can this be right?
Reply #48 - Jul 19th, 2003 at 10:40pm
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I'd agree that a DNA match pretty much says without a doubt that the person, whose DNA matched, left the source of evidence.   But this does not prove the person committed the crime.  If a man has sex with a woman then departs;  then someone else comes in and kills said woman, with minimal contact and/or leaving little of his own DNA, etc; who will now be the best suspect?  The innocent man left skin cells, hairs, and semen all over the decedent's body.  Given that this man is now undeniably connected to the scene, there is already a very strong case against him.  DNA is powerful evidence and if a shread of motive is found (sex leads to plenty of motive theories), this innocent man could be convicted.  And on the flip side, the lack of DNA evidence found at the scene obviously does not prove the guilty guy innocent, though one would likely be inclined to think so.


Yes, I see your point. This issue was a hot one during a cource I recently took on Criminal Procedure & Evidence. I think most in the LE field would agree that it is extremely foolhardy to rely soley on one piece of evidence when investigating a crime. While DNA and possibly even a polygraph (utilizing a GTK) might point in the direction of one suspect, it is very important that other investigative leads are aggressively pursued to ensure that there is other evidence to conclusively link the suspect to the crime. The reliability and accuracy of any procedure and evidence comes into play when we get into the area that you talked about.

I'm sure we'll all agree DNA evidence is extremely accurate, although not 100%. However, like you've pointed out, it cannot tells us whether or not someone committed a crime, only that they were present. So, once you have a positive DNA match, it is important to take into account several other factors. Did the suspect admit to being there prior to finding out the results of the DNA test? Did the suspect provide a reasonable explanation along with that admission? Or did the suspect lie and claim s/he was never there? If the latter most option is the case, now you have to figure out why the suspect lied, (i.e. afraid of getting caught, afraid of being falsely linked with the crime, etc). However, what you do have is conclusive evidence that they were there. There can be no denying that. Now it's time to figure out why they were there, and either investigate deeper or move on to other suspects.

With the polygraph, coming up with a DI chart is not conclusive evidence that they were there, or had anything to do with a crime, since as Saidme showed us, and the Molly Bish case demonstrates, the polygraph does not have an accuracy rate high enough to make that claim. As an interrogation tool, it is probably excellent for getting confessions out of the guilty, but absent a confession, I would not direct any investigation of mine in a certain direction based on the results of a polygraph test.

I'd also like to address the flip side of what you said, which is, a lack of DNA evidence at a crime scene. I would not like to think that LE agencies are relying too heavily on DNA evidence to solve their crimes, even though DNA is extremely valuable in proving certain things. However, police have been solving crimes long before DNA evidence and polygraphs have been around, so a lack of DNA evidence at a crime scene in no way exonerates a suspect from a crime. It probably just means they were either very careful or very lucky. 

Quote:
Because polygraph is recognized as less than 100%, no DI exam results would be presented as evidence of guilt in court.  Confessions can be admitted as evidence, but rarely will the result of any poly.  DI alone never put anyone in jail.  

Now do you think poly is more dangerous than DNA, given how they both are used?  Don't get me wrong, DNA evidence is great, but we must ensure we know what it actually proves, and does not prove.  Those parameters are fairly well set, to a safe zone, when it comes to criminal investigative polygraphy.


I think the poly is much more dangerous than DNA, because it is not nearly as accurate in establishing a connection to the crime. Like I said, while a DNA match will establish someone was at a crime scene, it will not establish they committed the crime. Certain kinds of DNA evidence are more helpful than others, e.g., skin under fingernails, victim's hair in the trunk of a car, blood on a pant leg or shoe, etc., while others just prove contact with the victim occured, e.g., semen traces found in the victim. 

Both the polygraph and DNA can be misused and detrimental to any investigation when utilized by an incompetent examiner, but I do not believe even a competent examiner can use a polygraph to conclusively link a suspect to a crime. 
  
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