Normal Topic So what if I flat out plan on lieing? (Read 9838 times)
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So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Jun 12th, 2003 at 2:19am
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Seems to me most of the sting stuff is to prevent false positives. So what if I know I am going to lie and need to lie? Will it work?
My problem is this. I tried the honesty route and pretty much got screwed for it. I smoked pot as a teenager in high school, but now 14 years later I am being held accountable for actions as a kid. I have already served in the military and been in a respectable public service position since. Both required random drug screening which I always passed due to the fact I have not smoked pot since high school!
Anyway, I tried to get hired with a local PD and was totally honest with them about my past as a teenager. I was auto DQ'd for my honesty.
So screw it, I want to be a police officer and know I am of good morale character. My problem is I must abandon that very character temporarily just to get a shot to prove I will be a good LEO. It really stinks it has to come to this but I will not let some anal holier than thou DQ policy to cancel out my ambition.
I do not understand how you can put laws in place for minors due to expecting poor judgement out of them, then persecute an adult for poor judgement as a minor all at the same time!
So again, my question is this. Can I pass this polygraph KNOWING I intend on lieing?
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #1 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:30am
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First let me caveat this with I don't necessarily agree with pre-employment screening polygraph examinations.  Having said that, the last thing you want to do is get nailed down by an examiner who suspects you're using CM's.  You will effectively hve DQ'd yourself from any LE job.  I agree you shouldn't be held accountable for juvenile indiscretions 10-20 years later, however, if you're caught lying, it's only going to appear you brought your indiscretions into your adult life.  Tell the truth.  If that doesn't work, move on to another department.
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #2 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 5:30am
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Saidme wrote on Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:30am:
First let me caveat this with I don't necessarily agree with pre-employment screening polygraph examinations.  Having said that, the last thing you want to do is get nailed down by an examiner who suspects you're using CM's.  You will effectively hve DQ'd yourself from any LE job.  I agree you shouldn't be held accountable for juvenile indiscretions 10-20 years later, however, if you're caught lying, it's only going to appear you brought your indiscretions into your adult life.  Tell the truth.  If that doesn't work, move on to another department.


The kinds of countermeasures recommended in The Lie Behind The Lie Detector are undetectable. True, a polygraph interrogator may simply bluff and accuse and accuse an examinee of using them, but absent an admission they are undetectable.
  

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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #3 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:26pm
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Honestliar

Trust me when I say they are detectable.  I'm not sure what qulaifies BeechTrees to make his/her statement but as an examiner, I detect them on a fairly regular basis.  If I detect CM's, after the relevant issues are resolved, I discuss the CM's with the examinee's.  A large percentage of the time they provide where they got the CM material, what they did during the examination, and on occasion, they've even provided me with the pamphlets they've downloaded or purchased.  Move on to another department and stick with your honesty. Wink
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #4 - Jun 12th, 2003 at 6:39pm
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Saidme wrote on Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:26pm:
Honestliar

Trust me when I say they are detectable.  I'm not sure what qulaifies BeechTrees to make his/her statement but as an examiner, I detect them on a fairly regular basis.  If I detect CM's, after the relevant issues are resolved, I discuss the CM's with the examinee's.  A large percentage of the time they provide where they got the CM material, what they did during the examination, and on occasion, they've even provided me with the pamphlets they've downloaded or purchased.  Move on to another department and stick with your honesty. Wink


Saidme,
It seems to me there are a number of possible biases creeping into your evidence.

The first could be that you have a large percentage of applicants who know how to get online and have read about countermeasures.  Your "detection" then amounts to taking a random sampling, accusing them of countermeasures, and getting a confession out of a sizeable percentage not because you actually detected them, but rather because you're inadvertently playing the odds.

What happens if they don't admit to anything?

A second possibility is that you have a number of people who are trying countermeasures without having practiced them.

Regardless, it should be noted (again) that no polygrapher has ever demonstrated a consistent ability to detect countermeasures at above chance levels, when put to the test.  You, sir, would be the first, if you can do as claimed.

The above problems are precisely why uncontrolled anecdotal evidence simply won't do when it comes to proving the ability to detect countermeasures.  There are simply too many possible confounds.

Skeptic
« Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2003 at 7:17pm by Skeptic »  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #5 - Jul 18th, 2003 at 1:31am
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I dont mean to get in your personal life.   But you might of been DQ'd because you tried it on a consistent bases. perhaps if you gave us a little more information we can give you some kind of info. I know that in some departments cocaine is an auto DQ, Or you could of been disqualified based on other factors of your background.
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #6 - Jul 18th, 2003 at 6:55am
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Saidme wrote on Jun 12th, 2003 at 3:26pm:
Honestliar

Trust me when I say they are detectable.  I'm not sure what qulaifies BeechTrees to make his/her statement but as an examiner, I detect them on a fairly regular basis.  If I detect CM's, after the relevant issues are resolved, I discuss the CM's with the examinee's.  A large percentage of the time they provide where they got the CM material, what they did during the examination, and on occasion, they've even provided me with the pamphlets they've downloaded or purchased.  Move on to another department and stick with your honesty. Wink


Saidme,

Trust me when I say you are full of crap! You CAN NOT, with accuracy, detect properly applied cm's. I've used them 3 times, all with seemingly competent examiners, and "passed" every one. Skeptic is right, you play the odds, randomly accuse people of cm's and get admissions. If you can detect them so well, why don't you enlighten your brother and sister examiners? Hold seminars, write a book...something. I'm sure they'd all appreciate the help. Wink Oh PUHHLEASE!

PK


  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #7 - Jul 23rd, 2003 at 7:52am
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Honestliar,

I think you should seriously reconsider your decision to lie during your pre-employment polygraph. I do not believe it should ever be the applicant's place to set the hiring standards for a department. Also, you stated you were previously disqualified by another department for your marijuana use as a teenager. If this information is uncovered during the application process, and you failed to list it, you will likely have a hard time getting hired by any departments in the area.

However, I also think you should completely ignore Saidme's boasting that he can detect countermeasures. If I were in your shoes, I would be honest, but also employ countermeasures to make sure you are not falsely accused of being deceptive.
  
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SXERe: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #8 - Jul 23rd, 2003 at 9:35pm
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SXE writes, "I would be honest, but also employ countermeasures...."

That is outstanding.  Kind of like I didn't steal it, but I didn't pay for it.  Or, don't lie, but don't tell the truth.

Here I thought this site was about anti-polygraph issues, not how to be a clown!

George,

Any chance we can screen some of these dipwads posts?  They're starting to drag your site down dude!

BATMAN

  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #9 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 12:03am
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Honestliar,


Sadam's henchmen knowingly lied to our best polygrapers and passed. 

We have heard here, from the pro-polygraph side, that the strain of being guilty will force you to react and fail.

But I can't think of anything more stressful than being questioned by the enemy about terroristic activities.  Imagine the strain put on those guys.  But even after being shown the evidence that they lied, these guys passed the polygraph.

That is very telling about the accuracy of the polygraph.
  
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Re: SXERe: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #10 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 12:39am
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Batman wrote on Jul 23rd, 2003 at 9:35pm:
SXE writes, "I would be honest, but also employ countermeasures...."

That is outstanding.  Kind of like I didn't steal it, but I didn't pay for it.  Or, don't lie, but don't tell the truth.


I recommend you rethink what you just said, because it doesn't make any sense. You are either honest when answering questions or you are not. You cannot be both. The polygraph chart readings do not reflect whether or not an applicant is being honest or deceptive, although many examiners make inferences based on them. Just because an examinee uses countermeasures to ensure that his truthful responses are scored as such does not mean he is "kind of" being dishonest.

Quote:
George,

Any chance we can screen some of these dipwads posts?  They're starting to drag your site down dude! 


It looks like you're out of luck here since George has opted to run a censorship-free message board. While this is probably more beneficial in the long wrong, it also means you have to tolerate advice you may not agree with, and the rest of us have to tolerate you popping into threads and making asinine and inflammatory comments to those that hold a different opinion than yours.
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #11 - Jul 24th, 2003 at 4:53am
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Honest Liar

Our best polygraph examiner's?  Where did you come up with that Einstein?    8)
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #12 - Jul 30th, 2003 at 8:53pm
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honestlier,
Yes you can lie on purpose using the Sting method and pass.
I have done it for three years.
I was put on probation for an indecent exposure charge that resulted from a drunken frat party.
One of my rules of probation was that I don't drink any alchohol and that I be inside by 9pm at night.  I have had a very strict probation officer who doesn't care if my job keeps me late...he wants me in by 9pm anyway.  The drinking I was able to quit, but I have consistently violated my probation by staying out late every week for three years.
And guess what?
One of my questions on the polygraph is always "Have you violated any rules of probation?"
I have always passed that one.

In fact I passed my last polygraph ever recently.  I am going to be off of probation soon and have my record cleared.

Thank God I came across the sting method or my ass would be grass.

Here's my question to the rest of you.  When I get off of probation should I throw it in my therapist's and the polygrapher's face that I lied to them the whole time and that I know that the polygraph is bogus psuedo-scientific crap?  I can prove this by my work records and by the fact that I passed that question on every test.
With that much proof that the polygraph is bogus, couldn't I take them to court for scamming me or something?  Couldn't I sue the justice system that forced me to take polygraphs?

-OkieBoy
  
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Re: So what if I flat out plan on lieing?
Reply #13 - Jul 30th, 2003 at 11:46pm
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Okieboy,

I would leave that one alone, why stir up a hornets nest. I don't know if they could come after you for post probation violations, but if you admit that you lied about part of your test, they may assume that you lied about other things of real importance. You live in a small town from what you posted, small towns have small town cops that take things personally...Your PO, could draw heat on you that you don't need.

Before my Polygrapgh, my PO and Counselor put great importance in the almighty truth telling machine...Put the fear of God in me.. After I passed they both made similar comments that passing is no big deal, it's not real reliable and that's why it's not allowed in courts.

My counselor went on to say that no one ever fails, unless they confess to wrong doing...Needless to say she was not impressed that I passed..

Peter
  
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