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Molly Bish (Read 18553 times)

orolan Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 363 Joined: Dec 25^th, 2002	Re: Molly Bish Reply #15 - Jun 17^th, 2003 at 11:18pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Drew, Do you think at this stage that a viable suite of GKT questions could be formulated for this case? Do you think the police have enough facts that haven't been given out to the media?

	"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Drew Richardson Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 427 Joined: Sep 7^th, 2001	Re: Molly Bish Reply #16 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 12:59am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Orolan, Because I have not spoken with those investigating the matter, anything I might say in answer to your two questions other than 'I don't know" would be idle speculation. I would hope proper planning, well executed investigation and/or good luck would lead to an affirmative answer to both questions...


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orolan Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 363 Joined: Dec 25^th, 2002	Re: Molly Bish Reply #17 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 5:30am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Drew, Under the circumstances I would expect no more than a speculative answer on the subject. It is highly likely at this point that luck is going to play the biggest part in solving this case. As you said, the GKT most likely would have performed much better than the CQT had it been used in the early stages of the investigation. On the subject of the GKT, where would one find informative discourses on its pros, cons and best uses? The subject interests me and I know just enough about it to end up putting my foot in my mouth.

	"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Marty Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 499 Joined: Sep 27^th, 2002	Re: Molly Bish Reply #18 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 7:04am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	orolan wrote on Jun 18^th, 2003 at 5:30am: Drew, ... As you said, the GKT most likely would have performed much better than the CQT had it been used in the early stages of the investigation. On the subject of the GKT, where would one find informative discourses on its pros, cons and best uses? The subject interests me and I know just enough about it to end up putting my foot in my mouth. There is a book called "The handbook of polygraphy", edited by Kleiner (Academic Press, 2002) , that has a good chapter on CIT (aka GKT), by a Japanese practitioner. According to him, the Japanese polygraphy community uses CIT's almost exclusively, stating that many polygraphers have never even seen a CQT. I think a lot of the problem is one of background and training. CIT's are a more recent invention and were adopted in Japan as there wasn't the inertia of a pre-existing polygraph infrastructure. CIT's are useless for screening but great for specific incident situations where details are not widely known. I think polygraphers are missing the boat by not training in the CIT in this country. You don't have the problem of >50% of the people failing those. -Marty

	Leaf my Philodenrons alone.
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Drew Richardson Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 427 Joined: Sep 7^th, 2001	Re: Molly Bish Reply #19 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 6:50pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Orolan, Although somewhat difficult to find (now out of print), David Lykken's first edition text A Tremor in the Blood (1981) in chapters 20 through 22 (the middle chapter being a fairly detailed account of a fictional crime, investigated and examined via a GKT exam) is probably the best overall explanation and example written for a general audience. There are, of course, numerous reports in the scientific literature for those with a more technical background and interest. Because the aforementioned text is no longer being sold, I will check with David regarding what he would suggest for those who might be interested in obtaining the material I refer to.


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Drew Richardson Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 427 Joined: Sep 7^th, 2001	Orolan, Re: Molly Bish Reply #20 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 7:13pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Orolon, With regard to my previous post: Quote: ...Orolan, Although somewhat difficult to find (now out of print), David Lykken's first edition text A Tremor in the Blood (1981) in chapters 20 through 22 (the middle chapter being a fairly detailed account of a fictional crime, investigated and examined via a GKT exam) is probably the best overall explanation and example written for a general audience. There are, of course, numerous reports in the scientific literature for those with a more technical background and interest. Because the aforementioned text is no longer being sold, I will check with David regarding what he would suggest for those who might be interested in obtaining the material I refer to.... I spoke with David Lykken who indicated he would send me a pdf file containing the aforementioned fictional account which he is willing to provide to this site for its posting/publication. I expect to receive the file in the near future and will make it available shortly thereafter.


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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: Molly Bish Reply #21 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 11:18pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	The file Drew mentioned is now available for download: "The Body on the Stairs: A Pedagogical Detective Story" (2.2 mb PDF) by David Thoreson Lykken. Chapter 21 of A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 1st edition, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1981. This chapter is not included in the 2nd edition of A Tremor in the Blood. It was very kind of Professor Lykken to grant permission for it to be made available on-line.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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orolan Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 363 Joined: Dec 25^th, 2002	Re: Molly Bish Reply #22 - Jun 18^th, 2003 at 11:57pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	My thanks to Drew, George and especially to David Lykken for his generous offer.

	"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6211 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: Molly Bish Reply #23 - Dec 3^rd, 2003 at 6:01pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	The CBS news program 48 Hours will be covering the Molly Bish case tonight (Wed., 3 Dec. 2003): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/01/48hours/main586143.shtml

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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orolan Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 363 Joined: Dec 25^th, 2002	Re: Molly Bish Reply #24 - Dec 4^th, 2003 at 12:37am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Thanks George. Wonder if they'll have anything "new", or just a rehash of what is already known.

	"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." &&U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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