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Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
May 11th, 2003 at 11:30pm
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<edited to protect the identity of the kids involved>

I currently hold a clearance with a SBI and a CI poly, and have a great performance record and background investigation (as admitted by my adjudicator). †I switched to a position where I was asked to go for an ISSA clearance although I could continue to do some of my job with the clearance I already possessed. †My adjudicator told me that everyone thought highly of me and I was described as "a cut above" by someone on the background investigation. †He was also impressed with my performance record at my previous job.

Though I'm not thrilled with what happened during my two suitability polygraph sessions (canceled and rescheduled for the following day, govt didn't know I was supposed to be there on my rescheduled date, waited for over half an hour before letting me into the main part of the building since all the people responsible for correcting the system were out to lunch, no apologies for any of this, polygrapher dismissed my concerns about some of my smartest and most respected coworkers unable to get through their polygraphs ("You don't know what personal issues they were struggling with, all you have to do is tell the truth if you want to get through this"), †blood pressure cuff so tight that my hand turned purple and I couldnít feel the tips of my fingers, polygrapher insisting that a little bit of pain is normal and I should be able to sit perfectly still through this, obvious lies told to me by polygraphers during exam, etc., etc.), †I am most concerned with the more than two hour "personal interview" given to me by my adjudicator about a week after my second exam.

He told me that the interview would not be audio-taped, would be conducted professionally, and he would talk to me "man to man". † He started out saying that we both knew I was lying, and we could get through this very quickly if Iíd just stop withholding relevant information from him. †He also told me that my body was telling him that I was lying and he didnít even need to hook me up to a polygraph machine to know that. †He spent some time pounding into me the threats to my career if I didnít give him the information he wanted. †I never saw my polygraph charts, but I am under the impression that I showed too much of a response on pretty much every question I was asked. †This, combined with my clean background investigation left both my polygraphers and adjudicator to go on fishing expeditions.

Neither of my polygraph interrogations centered too much around sex, but I did get inappropriate questions like "Have you ever paid for sex?", and "Have you ever gotten a women drunk so you could have sex with her?" (both paraphrased). †My adjudicator stepped up the level of questioning and believed the more a topic made me nervous the more I was lying about that topic. †Thus when my adjudicator used terms like "shaved tail" and "twat" (he was fond of slang terms and cursing) early on in the interview, and I had a strongly visible negative reaction, I condemned myself to talking about sex for the rest of the interview. †(Oops maybe I should have insisted it be audio-taped)

My adjudicator spent some talking about women as if they were sexual objects, but eventually decided to add in questions about my relations with the Junior High youth group at my church. †I had foolishly mentioned that I work with Junior High students during my second polygraph examination. †I had (honestly) told my polygrapher that the worst incident I could think of involving them was <deleted to protect kid's identity -- no rational person would have interpreted by comments to mean something inappropriate happened> †My deluded polygrapher interpreted my comments to mean that one of the Junior High girls was interested in me.

My adjudicator decided to pick up on this and questioned me further about my involvement with this kid. †The worst thing I could come up with was <deleted to protect kid's identity -- no rational person would have interpreted my comments to mean something inappropriate happened> . †I thought he would take this at face value and realize that he was making a big deal out of nothing, but I was wrong. †He took this as further evidence that she liked me and told me that I shouldnít discount my role in it. †I told him I was quite sure she didnít have any interest in me but he persisted in his demands that she liked me (after all, the other polygrapher thought so too). †Then he proceeded to ask me about her breast size. †I admitted to being familiar with the lettering system, but didnít really know exactly the size for each letter. †He persisted and eventually I gave him a guess. †Then he asked for a number and I told him I didnít know what he was talking about. †He explained and I still had no idea what to tell him. †Eventually he gave me a list of numbers to choose from, and I gave up and guessed one. †Then he went on to ask about hair color, eye color, height and weight (all of which I am sure are absolutely vital to national security Smiley). †I felt bad afterwards that I answered any of these questions, but was under extreme psychological pressure and humiliation at the time.

While I responded to his abusive questions, he jotted down notes. †The government may now posses information on her measurements. †I was very uncomfortable throughout the entire interview, and especially through this section. †My polygrapher couldnít understand why anything he said would make me uncomfortable. †I suggested that the parents would not be happy if they knew what we were saying about their kids. †He indicated that it did not matter since they would not find out. †At one point in the interview (possibly prior to the Junior High discussion), he was mystified about how uncomfortable I was with the sexual questions and said that many people love talking to him about this sort of thing and thought of it as some foreplay Ė this makes no sense to me so Iíll assume I misheard/misinterpreted these comments. †After the bra size question, he went on to characterize Junior High girls as people who dress for sex with older men, making comments about them knowing what they are doing and showing their thongs. †I was also forced to play what-if scenarios. Here is my attempt to reconstruct part of our dialogue.

Adjudicator: "If she slapped you in the cheek one day, what would you do? †Now I donít mean this cheek. (slaps himself on the cheek) †I mean the other kind of cheek." †(again, he was quite fond of slang)

Me: †"She would never do that."

Adjudicator: "Now you know her better than I do, but lets just suppose she did give you a little pat on the butt."

<more failed protests by me>

Me: "I suppose I would ignore it and try to pretend like it didnít happen."

Adjudicator: "Ok, well suppose she slapped you on the cheek a second time..."

etc.

None of that is meant to be an exact quote, but I think it conveys the situation pretty well. †The whole interrogation was about two hours and 15 minutes and I think the inappropriate remarks about Junior High students lasted over an hour. †Eventually he gave up the interrogation, made a few parting remarks, and I drove back to work. †I was so distressed that I had to think about which side of the yellow line to drive on at one point. †A week or two later I submitted a statement to my company to be forwarded to the government.

I try to ignore the issue, but know I cannot. †I still get infuriated thinking about it and have wasted a lot of time on the issue. †I remember more things about my polygraph investigation and comments made about Junior High students than I have recorded here. † This information is just a summary

I assume it is the opinion of the government and the deluded polygraphers who post on this site that what I went through is somehow my fault. †But I tell you that I am what my background investigation says about me and more Ė they will never find anything to use against me because there is nothing out there that can be used against me. †The government has picked the wrong person to harass.

I still have not decided which other actions I will take to rectify this injustice, but since the government is ignoring me, I have decided to make my next step posting on this site.
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2003 at 4:35am by Onesimus »  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #1 - May 12th, 2003 at 5:25am
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Dear Onesimus,

Your experience is frustrating at best.  I wish I could tell you   something that would create sense out of your experience.  You look in the mirror, do everything that you believe is right in your life and have an idiot who knows nothing about you state that everything that you have done is wrong.

I do not know what to tell you to do at this time  but please  write down everything about your experience onto a saved Wordperfect file for reference later before it becomes dull in your mind.

I know it is difficult but you must fight this assault on your integrity.

Regards.
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #2 - May 13th, 2003 at 4:43am
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I did write some of the major points down afterwards, especially about the Junior High kids.  I mean its bad enough to harass me, but to bring innocent kids into it?  -- lets just say I'd never let him near a minor.  The coolness with which he was able to talk about women as if they were pieces of meat amazes me.  At least he toned it down quite a bit when he got to the kids.

Overall, I can't remember enough details to fill up on the two hours and 15 minutes we talked.  Perhaps its because I was so fixated on the comments he made about the Junior High kids.  I mean, I had to see them again after the interview, how was I supposed to forget all the things he said and made me say about them?  Plus he spent a lot of time on some points like trying to impress upon me how much danger my career was in and trying to convince me that the Junior High kid was interested in me

I'm still plotting strategy on this one and think I have many cards in the deck to play with.  Right now, I'm working on a couple of my lower cards.

2 of diamonds -- Insist that all future sessions be audio-taped.

2 of clubs -- I think I should insist that the government give me a signed statement with an admission about some of the things they said to me before I say anything else to them.  This would include comments about the Junior High students, and my adjudicator's claim that we both knew I was lying.  This seems like a reasonable request given they didnít audio-tape it, but I cannot imagine that they will agree to it.  That's ok, more fuel for my fire.

2 of hearts --I have relatively good access to thousands who have taken polygraphs, mostly at the CI level.  Iím trying to figure out how to best exercise my right to free speech. 

2 of spades -- How about a "donít work for government agencies, the door is blocked by delusional perverts" effort for the college kids?  I would have said "no" out of college if I understood what I was getting into.

3 of diamonds -- Perhaps I should click on that link "Contact ABC" on abcnews.com.

And Iíll of course save the higher playing cards and trump cards for later.

Any thoughts?  Or should I not reveal my hand so publicly?  These are just the low cards though.

I assume the government will decide to step up the background investigation and try to pin something on me?  They must not like where they are Ė good performance record, educational background, background investigation, no damaging admissions, lousy polygraph results.  You think theyíll try and deny what happened in the interview?  Iím guessing theyíll neither confirm nor deny.

---  random thoughts on exercising my free speech to other polygraphees --

I think most people are afraid to speak up.  Nobody wants to bite the hand that feeds them.  One person I knew at my old job gave up trying to get the ISSA after more than a year of trying.  I donít know what happened to that person, but they werenít willing to talk to me about it.  Another person gave up and went to another job.  Still another lost the clearances they already possessed.  I think there might have been another that lost their clearances.  This is from a room of less than 60 people.  In general I find the more I respect a person, the more difficulty they have with the polygraph.  (According to polygraphers, Iím just not aware of the personal issues theyíre struggling with, sometimes you donít know a person as well as you think...)  Its a one-size-fits-all test that probably works better on your average Joe than the people that pull the weight around at the top.  Needless to say, I was a little scared to take a job that required the ISSA, but I figured Iíd survive.

--
Here are some G-rated snippets paraphrased from my "personal interview"

Adjudicator:

"I'm not a dog, I don't need you to throw things out at me"
"This is a simple yes or no question"
"You're making me work hard today"

More to say, but I need to do some other stuff tonight.
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #3 - May 13th, 2003 at 9:25am
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Onesimus,

Thank you for sharing your experience here. The polygrapher/adjudicator conduct that you've described is deeply wrong and should be stopped. Unfortunately, it seems that the Kafkaesque interrogation tactics and sexual inquisition you were subjected to are not as uncommon as one would expect and hope for in a civil society.

See, for example, the public statements of No Such Author (CIA - sexual inquisition), False + (CIA - overinflated arm cuff and hostile interrogation), Frustrated (NSA - fabricated admission to downloading child pornography reported to state police), and Mark Mallah (FBI - false accusation of espionage).

See also the section of Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector titled, "CIA Applicants Beware!" (begins at p. 76 of the 2nd ed.).

I think your suggestion of a "don't work for government agencies, the door is blocked by delusional perverts" effort has some merit. Perhaps it should be directed not only to those in college, but also those who work for government contractors. I've recently written an article ("Just Say 'No' to FBI Polygraphs") concluding that those seeking a career in law enforcement should avoid the FBI, not because of the line of questioning used by the Bureau, but because the risk of a false positive is so high, and the resulting harm so great, that it poses an unacceptable risk for individuals.

Are you aware of AntiPolygraph.org's Campus Poster Initiative? This is one way you could help to spread the word to colleagues. (College campuses are not the only places where these posters might be appropriate.)

You're right that many people fear to speak up. I think many have a well-founded fear of retaliation. The moral courage you've displayed in speaking out on this issue is rare.

For blowing the whistle on this message board, you might be targeted for reprisal. Polygraphers from various agencies lurk on this message board, and it is likely that some from the agency that polygraphed you have read your post. Although you've posted anonymously, with the detail you've included, they should have little difficulty identifying you (and may well have already done so). Although nothing you have posted here is in any way classified, it will be embarrassing to those involved, and I would not be surprised if you face retaliation.

Another card you may wish to add to your hand is a consultation with a lawyer. Mark Zaid, who specializes in national security cases and is representing a number of plaintiffs who have filed suit against the federal government over polygraph policy, might be a good one to contact:

Mark S. Zaid, Esq.
Krieger & Zaid, PLLC
1133 21st Street, N.W., Suite 800
Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 223-9050 (w)
(202) 498-0011 (cell)
ZaidMS@aol.com

In addition, you might want to get your congressional representative and senators involved. Call their offices and ask to speak to someone about the unprofessional conduct you've encountered. This is a situation that I think calls out for congressional oversight.
« Last Edit: May 13th, 2003 at 11:21am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #4 - May 13th, 2003 at 5:12pm
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Onesimus,

I think you should notify the parents of the youth group that this pervert is probably obsessed with their daughter's sexual "interest". I, also, think your congressmen in Wasjington D.C. should receive a letter exposing this corruption. I doubt that you now have a future in LE with any federal agency anyway.
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #5 - May 14th, 2003 at 6:27am
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I emailed my company tonight asking for an update on my security clearance and the letter they were supposed to forward to the government.

I read the Campus Poster Initiative shortly after making my last post.  I donít know where Iím allowed to hang stuff up at work though.

Iíll be playing the cards listed and others slowly over time.

-- previous experience -- CI poly I took in 2000
At the pre-polygraph briefing, one of the polygraphers complemented the other one, saying that he was a hero and had saved someoneís life during the polygraph examination. (geeze, I feel sorry for whoever went through that).  I liken this to taking someone up to a cliff, pushing them off, catching them before they fall over the edge and saying what a fine job you did to save them.

I ended up with this same guy when it came time for me to take the poly.  He made a bunch of stupid remarks at the beginning which I decided was in my best interest not to argue with.  The one that still stands out in my mind was him telling me not to listen to any of the horror stories I had heard.  I think he said something to the effect that since he was the professional and did this all the time, his opinion was worth more than people who had just taken it once or twice.  I was amazed by his arrogance but didnít argue.  I liken this to a serial rapist telling his next victim that he shouldnít listen to what others may have said about him Ė after all, heís the expert.

At one point during the exam, he said, "Iíve never seen this before."  On the chart, it looked like my pulse reading had made a straight line down completely off the charts.

An allergy shot I took a couple days before the exam left my left arm a little swollen.  I requested he not put the cuff on my left arm, but he made me roll up my sleeve so that he could see for himself.  He seemed to think he had done me some big favor because later he mentioned how accommodating he had been and how I needed to work with him when he had trouble getting good results with the cuff placed on my right arm.  He also asked me if I was trying to control my breathing a couple times.  Eventually he told me I had to come back another time.  The other guy that was getting polygraphed at the same time was sent away with the same complaints about breathing.

My polygrapher told me that it was stealing from a bank to write a check for something expecting the funds to be available for it by the end of the week.  I thought this was a random thing to say, and had no idea why he considered it stealing.  After all, banks donít lose money off bounced checks, they charge a penalty for them.  Now I realize he was probably just sensitizing me to questions.  If they had access to my bank records, they probably saw funds deposited and then almost immediately withdrawn.  Two of the questions I was given were "Have you ever broken a law just because you thought it was stupid?", and "Have you ever lied to anyone?"  When asked to rate my honesty, I told him I was a 9.  He insisted we were all professionals, and professionals are 10s.  I think thatís pretty funny given the number of obvious lies told to me on the job.  Iíve even been asked to lie about my qualifications by management (which I refused to do).  To the best of my knowledge, none of my favorite liars at work have any trouble passing the polygraph.
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #6 - May 14th, 2003 at 9:18am
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Onesimus,

The polygrapher conduct you've described with regard to your counterintelligence-scope polygraph examination is not unusual. It seems to be standard operating procedure for polygraphers to brag about their experience and qualifications; I believe they are actually taught to do this in polygraph school.

The questions, "Have you ever broken a law just because you thought it was stupid?" and "Have you ever lied to anyone?" are both probable-lie "control" questions. When you answered these questions with a "No," your denial was assumed to be less than completely truthful. If your reactions to relevant questions such as, "Did you ever commit an act of espionage against the United States?" had been greater than your reactions to the "control" questions, you would have "failed" the "test." Of course, none of this has any grounding in the scientific method. It is merely the codified conjecture of the polygraph priesthood. You'll find the ritual explained in detail in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

The spiel about the criminality of writing checks drawn on funds soon-to-be but not yet deposted was intended to sensitize you to the "control" question about ever breaking a law.

Similarly, the game of rating your honesty on a 1 to 10 scale, and the polygrapher's insistence that "professionals are 10s" was bluster intended to sensitize you to the "control" question about having ever lied to anyone.

Your remark about none of your favorite liars at work having any trouble passing the polygraph is quite germane: the polygraph procedure actually rewards dishonesty with regard to the probable-lie "control" questions. Perversely, the more candidly one answers the "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less stress when answering them, the more likely one is to fail.
  

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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #7 - May 14th, 2003 at 9:28am
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Onesimus,

As you wait for a decision regarding your security clearance, you might want to read Chapter 8 of Security Clearances and National Security Information: Law and Procedures written by Sheldon I. Cohen for the Defense Personnel Security Research Center. It is available in HTML format here:

http://antipolygraph.org/documents/security-clearances.shtml

The entire document may be downloaded as a 17 mb scanned PDF file through the Defense Technical Information Center by searching under Accession Number ADA388100 at:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/str/tr4_fields.html
  

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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #8 - May 25th, 2003 at 4:47am
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I found a few sites that let you buy your own customized bumper stickers.  I was thinking about "Polygraphs hurt National Security" on the left side of my license plate and "www.AntiPolygraph.org" on the other.   Any more ideas?
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #9 - May 25th, 2003 at 8:42am
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I think just "AntiPolygraph.org" would make a good bumper sticker because it can be read with a quick glance, is easily remembered, makes one's position on the polygraph issue very clear, and tells the interested reader where to find further information. The "www" can be left out. If you'd like a PDF file (with embedded scalable font) of the red & black AntiPolygraph.org logo for this purpose, I'd be happy to e-mail it to you or to place it on the site where you can download it.

FYI, the AntiPolygraph.org logo is set in "Helvetica Black," and the ".org" portion is 3/4 the point size of the "AntiPolygraph" portion.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #10 - May 25th, 2003 at 11:54pm
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Onesimus,
If you get a discount for buying in quantity, I'll take 5.
  

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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #11 - May 26th, 2003 at 3:00am
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Bumper stickers!!!  Great idea.  Hey and you could also plater them all over the bathroom walls next to your stupid ass poster.  George your does you ego need that much repair?

  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #12 - May 26th, 2003 at 7:33am
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Onesimus,

A PDF file with the AntiPolygraph.org logo may be downloaded here:

http://antipolygraph.org/antipolygraph-dot-org.pdf
  

George W. Maschke
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Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
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Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #13 - May 26th, 2003 at 8:34am
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www.makestickers.com looks like a good choice since it doesn't have minimum order quantities.  www.bumperstatements.com might work too.

I'm still looking for a left/right combo with the left side giving a short blurb on whats wrong with the polygraph.

Buying in bulk does cut down on the cost, but reshipping them to other people might negate that.   They don't fit in envelopes (unless you cut them in half).
  
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Re: Govt uses threats to obtain sex info on kids
Reply #14 - May 26th, 2003 at 8:54am
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I guess Amused forgot to pay attention during english class when he was in school, or is he just a drop out?
  
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