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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do I deal with this? (Read 71936 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Marty
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #60 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:22am
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George,

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I wrote "Batman" off as someone worthy of engaging in rational discourse with after his particularly flippant and offensive post (in which he likened me to Louis Farrakhan) in the message thread Al Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection. Considering "Batman's" puerile penchant for addressing you as "Septic," you might wish to do the same. He's clearly not interested in a civil exchange of ideas.


Rather than writing Batman off, I join Michelle in congratulating Batman for demonstrating so succinctly what feet of clay polygraphers have. A picture is worth a thousand words and Batman has painted a picture that 20 anti-polygraphers would be hard pressed to improve upon.

-Marty
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:39am by Marty »  

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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #61 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:22am
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George...

>>I fully agree. "Batman's" main contribution to the discussions here on AntiPolygraph.org has been to graphically illustrate the kind of boorish, crude, and arbitrarily accusatory personality that those facing a polygraph interrogation may encounter. See, especially, his posts in the message thread Truthfull but Still Failed a Poly and CVSA.<<

I agree with you regarding writing him off.  I'll give him a day or two to figure out how he will get out of this hole he finds he is in and then I am done with him.  He truly is an arrogant waste of airspace on this planet.  He couldn't admit an error in judgment if his silly little life depended on it.

I can't help but to think that Batman sizes a person up in the first 60 seconds of encountering them and his equipment agrees with his narrow minded, egotistical, and uneducated opinion.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #62 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:51am
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Marty wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:22am:

George,


Rather than writing Batman off, I join Michelle in congratulating Batman for demonstrating so succinctly what feet of clay polygraphers have. A picture is worth a thousand words and Batman has painted a picture that 20 anti-polygraphers would be hard pressed to improve upon.

-Marty


The thing is, I don't think he cares.  I won't go into my full opinion here, but suffice it to say I think his posts on this board involve easing a conscience more than setting a good example.

Skeptic
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #63 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 11:10am
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 10:51am:



The thing is, I don't think he cares.  I won't go into my full opinion here, but suffice it to say I think his posts on this board involve easing a conscience more than setting a good example.

Skeptic



Yup, Skeptic. Those have also been my thoughts since his reference to "mind f**k"ing examinees.  Of course he sees himself as a decent person (don't we all) and has to rationalize it by believing the worst about his opponents here.

Sad, but completely human.  I've wondered on occasion what professional torturers did to salve their psychic wounds. Now that is a paper I would like to read.

BTW, I've been impressed with Cialdini's work ever since hearing him speak at a one of Michael Schermer's "Skeptic's meetings" at Baxter. Found his book on "influence" remarkable. It is a book you can't put down.  Later, I noticed his name kept coming up in polygraph circles as a (or even the) foremost "compliance" expert.  It seems he gives seminars on this to various federal agencies. I do know that the psychology of compliance is widely applicable in LE and military circles.

One of the more chilling books I ever read was "The Craft of Power." which is a more modern and explicit than "The Prince" Like Shermer, the guy is out of Caltech. Chemistry PhD I think. Cold cold book.

-Marty
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2003 at 11:32am by Marty »  

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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #64 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 3:55pm
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Dear Michelle,

Your legal drug use is not the issue here.

Your fear (unfounded because they are legal) of how you will react to drug questions on a polygraph is already evident.  The polygraph operator is trained to be skeptical of any admissions (legal or otherwise) which are given in light of any "deceptive polygraph" results.  In your case, I think that he will be able to sense your body language or something else which might not even be related to polygraph readings due to the tension in your mind about the "unknown" during this process.

If this discussion on this board is raising any tensions in your mind, the polygraph experience will amplify it.

I do not believe in the validity of pre-screening polygraphs but the agencies that use it do.

Maybe you could find a department that does not require one.

Regards.

Dear Michelle,

I may now take back these words just typed a few short days ago.  You have been exposed to the logic of a poor polygraph examiner.  Without fear, a polygraph examination is very useless in its utility for confessions.  As Marty has stated earlier,  you now have an excellent grasp of the situation. 

I have received three FBI pre-screening polygraphs.  The first was very professional.  The agent was courteous, polite, and I believe trying to do the job as best he could.  I came back inconclusive.  

The second was young, arrogant, bias, and extremely unprofessional in personal conduct as well as professional.  He has made his decision to fail me within minutes of closing the door.   I was found "not within parameters."  This observation is not just mine for after my appeal letter describing my exam I was allowed a third polygraph.

My third polygraph was a duplicate of my first.  A polite, professional experience given by an examiner who was trying to do his best.  Did the examiner get many answers from me?  He got alot more information than the second idiot by being a good interrogator who gave his subject basic respect.  After six hours in the room,  I was found "non-deceptive".

Batmans' behavior and demeanor is identical to the second examiner.  He is arrogant and talks down to his "subjects."  All highly emotional responses are treated as "you must be hiding something because it upsets you."  

I do not perform polygraphs for a living but I do know more about FBI polygraph policy and procedure because I have investigated it in detail due to my background and interest after my poor polygraph experience.  This is why my appeal was so successful. Unlike Batman, I take the time to learn how people who disagree with my view think.  I have caught Batman in bad information concerning the polygraph usage in the FBI.  At that point, I decided that his "professional" knowledge was weak and treated him accordingly.

My background is done and all that is left is my physical.  Look at my postings on this board and look at Batman's.

Who would you want protecting your Civil Rights?

Regards.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #65 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 5:36pm
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Fair Chance...

I find it interesting that some of the posts I have read on this thread and others... the polygraphers blame the antipolygraphers for the education of some to deceive the test.  I read a thread where it was mentioned that the book repeatedly referred to on this forum (available for download, sorry I do not recall the exact title) has been downloaded over 50,000 times.

The polygraphers were up in arms over this, their attitude was similar to other threads that it is the author's fault that people are able to deceive the test.  Isn't this overlooking the obvious?  If the test can be so easily deceived, merely by downloading a couple of hundred pages from the internet, isn't the *real* problem that the test *can* be deceived?  The issue is NOT whose fault it is for educating people about the failings of this test, the issue is very simply, the failings of the test.

When a person of average intelligence or better can download something so basic from the internet and pass a test they would have otherwise potentially failed that is not the fault of those doing the educating.  That is the fault of those polygraphers who know better but in the name of money, greed, pride, inability to admit errors... it is *their* fault because they should (and do) know better.

I can't help but to believe their egos must be huge.  They must be beyond imagination.  They know their test is not a valid test yet they pass and fail people at a whim and clearly the only thing they have to go on is their own gut feelings.  As I watch Batman I scratch my head and wonder why everyone does not see where the real morality issues are.  True personal responsibility would be for polygraphers to admit they are nothing but a scam.  I don't know if they actually know that throughout their entire career but they *are* educated here and I cannot believe this is the first place they originally became aware of the lack of validity of their own test.

I have made it more than clear that I am not a xtian or an advocate of xtianity as a whole.  I do not buy into the notion that a man from 2000 years ago paid for the sins of the future.  I believe in personal responsibility, the here and now.  It is NOT okay to have such an impact upon a person's life when you know you can't really go by much more than your gut and to accept money for that on top of it... it makes me wish there really was a hell so that people like this would have an appropriate place to spend their eternity.

I have absolutely no fear of a polygraph.  I have zero concerns of passing this test.  None.  But you know what?  Even if I did fail it, that would not be the end of the world.  It would be nothing more than a bit of practice for the test the next time I would take it.  Whether that be at the same LE agency or a different one.  Point being, the impact would not be huge for me but I think of people who are innocent of a crime and trying to pass a polygraph without the knowledge of how people like Batman work.

Since DNA knowledge came out how many people have been found innocent of crimes after they have been in prison for many years?  If I did not have the knowledge that I do now regarding this silly test and I worked for LE believing this was a valid test, I'm not sure I would go beyond the call of duty to make sure that the evidence I have and the polygraph exam available was wrong.  To me that would seal the deal, it would be time for a trial.  If the test came out that the person was innocent, then I might go beyond the call of duty to make sure I was on the right track.  Clearly I can't be the only one to feel this way.
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:14pm by Michelle »  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #66 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:22pm
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I have caught Batman in bad information concerning the polygraph usage in the FBI.  At that point, I decided that his "professional" knowledge was weak and treated him accordingly.


Are you sure his info is weak?  I have usually found that people pretty well know the in's and out's of their own profession, especially someone so very skilled as Batman claims he is.  If his claims are true than he does have appropriate info regarding his profession and the validity of the test.  If Batman is as good as he says than clearly, he knows his test is nothing more than fraud.  If he does not know the in's and out's of his profession that tells us he is not nearly as good at being a polygrapher as he would like for us to believe.

Either way he isn't looking very good.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #67 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm
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Fair chance,

Would you answer a question?  When you took your third test, did you lie?  Also, whether you lied or not, did you use counter measures?

I can certainly see why a polygraph examiner would not want people here to know.  There is no open discussion of views.  There is no attempt to try to come to some understanding of how things might be made better.  There is most certainly enough intelligence here to do that if the desire was there.

All I see is negative, if you want to pass a polygraph "cheat" (counter measures) if you lie, then "cheat" so you can pass.

I have read the information, including the NAS report.

Michelle, Skeptic, I don't think you have Batman cold.  I think you forgot something.  I don't know if you abuse your prescription or not, I don't care but you don't have to get it just through prescription.  It is readily obtained on the street.  So showing a prescription bottle with a bunch of pills left over means nothing.  They could even be aspirin or no doze.

Michelle, you can question my intelligence, my reading comprehension or anything else you want to but it doesn't change the fact that you are planning to lie and cheat to get a job.  How about doing an objective poll of 100 people and asking if they think it is right or wrong to lie and cheat to get a job.  Thats the world we live in and if the majority think its ok I feel very sorry for future generations.

confused
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #68 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:07pm
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Golly gee, should Batman fall for the bait and get into a "how much I know" pissing match with Fair Chance and Michelle?  Or should he turn tail and run?  Or maybe he should ask Fair Chance exactly how he "...caught Batman in bad information concerning the polygraph usage in the FBI."

Tune in next time folks to see what Batman decides to do!

NEXT TIME:

OK, my man Fair, 

Just how did you catch me in bad information concerning the usage of polygraph in the FBI?  Let me guess.  I'll bet it has something to do with Ms Seeker's recent post about informants, and how the FBI uses polygraph as it pertains to them.  Well, I think the jury is still out on that one.  If there was some other way you caught me please advise.  As you said, you are not a polygraph examiner.  I am, and have been for 19+ years.  What agency do I wok for?  Nope, ain't saying.  Where did I get my training?  Ain't saying that either.  How do I know what the FBI does with it's use of polygraph on informants?  Ain't saying.

Also, when I step into the polygraph suite to administer a polygraph examination, I am as nice a guy as you'll ever meet.  I have yet to have anyone, even the ones who have confessed to me, complain about my professionalism or my attitude before, during, and after the polygraph examination.  I've even had several folks who have confessed to various crimes shake my hand and say thanks.  I guess they were just as pleased as punch to have bought a share of jail time from me and my co-workers (fellow investigators).

I guess you could say that while in the room, I'm Bruce Wayne, but on this site I become BATMAN, just kickin' ass and taking names!   

Michelle,

You're coming on pretty strong for someone who just a couple of days ago didn't know jack about polygraph, and who was trying to come across like Sweet Polly Purebread as it pertained to seeking employment as a dispatcher with a law enforcement agency.  I do believe you are a wolf in sheep's clothing.  You sound just a little to much like some of the other who post on this site.  As a matter of fact, by the tone of your posts I'm beginning to suspect you have posted here before under another alias.  I may be wrong, however not likely.  For I am....

Batman
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #69 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:15pm
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confused wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm:


Michelle, Skeptic, I don't think you have Batman cold.  I think you forgot something.  I don't know if you abuse your prescription or not, I don't care but you don't have to get it just through prescription.  It is readily obtained on the street.  So showing a prescription bottle with a bunch of pills left over means nothing.  They could even be aspirin or no doze.


Once again you are wrong.  The tablets can quite easily be identified by the markings, the shape, and the color.  You could do a search on Dexedrine to determine what they are supposed to look like.  You see, Confused, tablets are intentionally identifiable exactly as I describe above.  Matter of fact it is also very easy to call your local poison control center, provide the information on the tablets and they can identify the tablet for you.  See?  Easy.  What you fail to realize is that not every tablet on the market looks like an aspirin tablet.  Cool concept, eh?

As for how I obtain the drug, please explain to me how I would get Rx labels, Rx bottles, and how would I affix the labels to the bottles, obtain 400 or so tablets so that I could send photos of all this to a disinterested 3rd party for verification?

Otherwise you are suggesting something similar to my going to a pharmacy, robbing them of Rx labels and Rx bottles, then spending a LOT of money on the street to buy (brand name vs. generic, btw) Dexedrine so that I could prove what a doofus Batman is.

Sorry, it just isn't that difficult to prove Batman a doofus.  He does most of the work for me.  He has shown what he is all about, I am merely permitting a way for him to prove it himself.

Two other points, the pharmacy phone number is on the labels.  It is quite easy to call information and verify that this is a pharmacy and the number is correct.  Then the disinterested 3rd party can call the pharmacy if the photos are not enough, and verify the Rx numbers to my name.

I have also offered to send a scanned copy of my insurance card or my driver license to verify I am the person named on the Rx's.

Another item you failed to mention is that I also have an unfilled Rx for #180 Dexedrine.  I have also offered to scan that Rx and send it to the same disinterested 3rd party.  How did I obtain that?  Or are you going to suggest that after breaking into a pharmacy and stealing labels and vials I then broke into an MD office and stole Rxs.  Then I went back to the pharmacy, typed up the labels I stole, entered Rx numbers into their computer ... JUST so that I could prove a point on this forum.  That is what I would have to do if I do not have valid Rx's for Dexedrine.

Care to try again?
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:33pm by Michelle »  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #70 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:17pm
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confused wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm:


Michelle, Skeptic, I don't think you have Batman cold.  I think you forgot something.  I don't know if you abuse your prescription or not, I don't care but you don't have to get it just through prescription.  It is readily obtained on the street.  So showing a prescription bottle with a bunch of pills left over means nothing.  They could even be aspirin or no doze.


If the post I am responding to is not enough evidence that you are either Batman or someone like Batman, I don't know what is.  Much as you try to defend him it is not working any more than it works when he defends himself under his usual name.  You both have a specific writing style in that you both make exactly the same grammar error in many of your posts.  Something very specific and actually, not all that common.

Nobody spells worse than I do and nobody's grammar is worse than mine.  I am not knocking the grammar error on your part and Batman's, I am pointing out that a "not so common" error is something you both share in similar words.  Also, you both attempt to start out very nice and just offering thoughts on a topic (judgmental thoughts, btw) and when others disagree with you, you come out fighting using the same fighting style.

You know what?  I have Batman nailed on a cross and ready to hang.  I'm very interested to see his efforts to get out of this one.  My guess is that he will come up with the most untrustworthy disinterested 3rd parties that he can possibly come up with so that he knows there isn't a chance in hell I would send that kind of private info.  That, or he'll insist I post all that information here, on the boards.  Like I would really do that.  Sheesh... Why would I post my name, my address (license info) my pharmacy name, Rx numbers, MD name, and advertise the fact that I have 400+ Dexedrine tablets in my home?  Can anything BE more dangerous?

Batman will get out of this, I'm betting.  I think it will be by one of the two methods above.  He may not realize it but that too will prove what a liar, cheat, and fraud he is.  Not to mention a poor judge of character and an over all buttwad.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #71 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:19pm
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confused wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm:


Michelle, you can question my intelligence, my reading comprehension or anything else you want to but it doesn't change the fact that you are planning to lie and cheat to get a job.  How about doing an objective poll of 100 people and asking if they think it is right or wrong to lie and cheat to get a job.  Thats the world we live in and if the majority think its ok I feel very sorry for future generations.


How many times have I addressed this point already?  As have others.  Com'on, get some new material, would you?  And take a reading comprehension class because seriously, dude, you need it.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #72 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:27pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:07pm:


You're coming on pretty strong for someone who just a couple of days ago didn't know jack about polygraph, and who was trying to come across like Sweet Polly Purebread as it pertained to seeking employment as a dispatcher with a law enforcement agency.  I do believe you are a wolf in sheep's clothing.  You sound just a little to much like some of the other who post on this site.  As a matter of fact, by the tone of your posts I'm beginning to suspect you have posted here before under another alias.  I may be wrong, however not likely.  For I am....


Actually, yet another specific error you and Confused have in common.  I am not just now coming on strong.  Remember post #3 of this thread?  That was my 2nd post *ever* on this forum.

And of course you are wrong.  Unlike you I am willing to PROVE who I am.  I'm not hiding behind some silly cartoon character.  That would be you.  Grin

Whether or not you like it, the polygraph and the failings of a polygraph just aren't that tough to see.  Batman, you still don't get it.  YOU are the one that has taught me the most about all of this.  The basic data regarding polygraphs is easy to obtain here and other places, the accusations of how a polygraph examiner can behave, YOUR behaviors, YOUR attitude, YOUR posts... how difficult is this?

I'm sorry that your job doesn't require a huge amount of skill but don't knock others merely because they acknowledge that fact.  It still doesn't make your job have any great value.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #73 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:43pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:07pm:

Golly gee, should Batman fall for the bait and get into a "how much I know" pissing match with Fair Chance and Michelle?  Or should he turn tail and run?


Welllll, so far it appears that you are running as fast as your little paws will take you AND that tail is tucked between your legs.

That or you forgot to mention the "great challenge" presented to you.

Want the proof or do you want to apologize for really crappy behavior?

So what are you, a man or a polygrapher?
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #74 - Feb 21st, 2003 at 7:47pm
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confused wrote on Feb 21st, 2003 at 6:41pm:

Fair chance,

Would you answer a question?  When you took your third test, did you lie?  Also, whether you lied or not, did you use counter measures?

Dear Confused,

I have never falsified or omitted anything pertaining to any application I have made for federal service.  The government has had and continues to have huge amount of private information concerning my life.  This is the choice I made years ago.  I did not willingly lie or knowingly lie about any questions posed to me.  I was unaware of this website during my first two polygraph sessions and I informed my third polygraph examiner that I have done significant research into polygraph examination with an explicit reference to the National Acadamy of Science Report about Polygraph usage in DOE screening applications.

I believe that my first polygraph was inconclusive because I was not responsive enough to what I now know were control questions.  I had been completely honest and had no problems in truthfully stating that I obey all traffic laws, I have not used my federal law enforcement status to gain any special favors and I do not drink and drive.  I guess they needed me to feel guilty about those statments and feel emotional turmoil to "pass" me.  I had no fear in answering any questions.

The second polygraph examiner started to attack and grill me almost as soon as I sat down for the pre-test interview. My pre-test interview was almost non-existent and I was attacked for using breathing countermeasures on the first strip.  This confirms my feelings that examiners do not have a sure fire way of detecting breathing countermeasures because I had no knowledge of any countermeasures at that point.  It was my normal breathing.  I have detailed the rest of that exam in previous post.

I believe that my last examiner spent much more time trying to develope questions that I would have a hard time answering without doubt or reflection.  I did not use any countermeasures and answered the questions with almost an identical response to my first test.  For whatever reason, I passed this time.

My answers and feelings were all the same during all three test and that is why I have agreed with Marty that the pre-screeing polygraph test is a roll of the dice crapshoot.

The damage to the Nation occurs when applicants are falsely accused and their federal careers executed strictly on polygraph results alone.  Rarely do many applicants get a second, let alone a third polygraph.

One glaring fault in this whole system is no videotaping of the process to assure that the examiner through body language, voice inflections, and methods of questioning skews the results.  The review gurus in Washington, D.C., only review the recording tapes.  There is no quality control.  The videotape would also demonstrate if the examiner is using the same overall technique or deviating according to his/her personal bias.

You want improvement, immediately start videotaping all polygraph exams, make copies of the exam and polygraph strips made immediately to the examinee on request, and have peer review of random examinations to make sure that personal bias is not introduced.

All of the above does not change the fact that without fear and confessions, polygraphs are useless.  There is a lot of money being spent without documented results (concerning deceptive polygraphs without confessions and background checks).

My results would have been the same if polygraph did not exist.  My application is proceding.  If a person has drug or alcohol problems, they are in denial for many years and a polygraph is no sure fire way to make them "fess-up".  Any reasonable background check will find it.  Our country's future is worth it.

Regards
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2003 at 8:40pm by Fair Chance »  
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