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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do I deal with this? (Read 61314 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #30 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:23pm
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:09pm:
It's truly remarkable the messages we get from our ernstwhile polygraph representatives.  On the one hand, they claim countermeasures don't work and you'll likely get caught using them.  On the other, they claim providing that info helps terrorists and criminals get away with their crimes.  They even went so far as to call George a traitor.

These guys really are "exhibit A" for the anti-polygraph side.


I wasn't blowing smoke when I wrote about how people like Batman and Torpedo have really shown me something I would have never been prepared for.  Their behavior is such that honestly, I don't think I would have believed many of the regulars here had I not seen it for myself.  This really does prepare me for the test.  I would have never seen this one coming.

I think they contribute more to the boards than they know and they should be encouraged to continue spewing.

Ever notice how a person's on line personality and their screen name work together?  Batman?  Torpedo?  Kinda like ... bigger than a human can stand.  Is it any wonder they push their polygraph equipment the same way they do their claims of the test?

Do you think these two polygraphers really believe their test is at all accurate?
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Batman
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #31 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:48pm
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Septic:

Good job of "addressing the content of my posts" with the following:

"That's about enough of the ad hominem crap, 'Batman'." 

"If you can't muster anything more witty than "Septic" as an argument, you've already lost." 

"And as Michelle has already testified, your attitude does far more harm to your cause than I ever could."

"I suppose we can credit your gift of logic for the fact that you are a polygrapher in the first place."

"On second thought, you go right ahead and use that "septic" moniker, moron." 

"It's probably about the best you can do, and we wouldn't want to stifle your abilities."

"Funny how few of those we get, despite Batman's rant."

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of substance there Septic, just a lot of striking out in anger.  You rant pretty well too.

You did ask, "...unless, of course, you think it's relevant to ask for any and all private information, regardless of whether it has any bearing on the job at hand, or is part of the employment criteria -- is that what you believe?"

What I believe isn't important in a case like this; it's what Ms. Michelle believes.  For whatever reason, she believes this to be a very relevant issue, or she wouldn't be here in the first place.  As for it being part of the employment criteria, is it?  Maybe it is or Michelle wouldn't be so wound around the axle about it.

By the way Michelle,

You seem to have gone from an innocent little asker of advice to a pretty headstrong poster in just a matter of hours.  Something tells me you are hiding information about either who you really are, your real intentions, or exactly what your concerns are.  Keep in mind, I'm a pretty good judge of character, proof being I've had Septic pegged as an asshole for some time now.

After all, I am

BATMAN


  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #32 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 12:00am
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I'm deleting this post out of respect for the board.  Batman, you're just not worth it.

Skeptic
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2003 at 5:04am by Skeptic »  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #33 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 12:03am
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Batman...

>>You seem to have gone from an innocent little asker of advice to a pretty headstrong poster in just a matter of hours.  Something tells me you are hiding information about either who you really are, your real intentions, or exactly what your concerns are.  Keep in mind, I'm a pretty good judge of character, proof being I've had Septic pegged as an asshole for some time now<<

Hardly.  Read my very 2nd post ever posted in this forum.  Happens to be in this thread, I believe post #3.  I am headstrong, always have been and am quite proud of it.

Care to try again?

Perhaps those little voices in your head aren't so reliable afterall.  As for your being a good judge of character, once again you give yourself far too much credit.

Cheers
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Marty
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #34 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 12:24am
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Michelle,

I, for one, am impressed for you seemed to have absorbed the essence of what polygraphy is and isn't remarkably fast.  You should consider career opportunities beyond dispatcher that could better employ your talents. I think many would jump at hiring you though you probably should spend the most time first deciding if you want to work for them.


Batman,

Admit it, you are way outclassed.

-Marty
  

Leaf my Philodenrons alone.
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #35 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 1:27am
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Michelle and others,

I want to make sure I have this right.  You do not want to tell a LEA you have a medical problem and take prescription medication.  They don't care and won't ask but if they do you will lie.  You don't think that is immoral, of course we all tell some lies but I don't think that means it is not immoral (thou shalt not lie is not amended by, unless "its none of their business").  So you have decided to lie if asked and you wonder how you can hide this lie.  so based on advice from this forum you have now decided to not only lie but to cheat on the test to hide your lie.

Please explain to me how lying and cheating is not immoral?  I would never say that I have never lied or cheated but I would also admit when I did it was immoral.

I am sure they will not ask about prescribed medication so you are preparing to lie, cheat and be immoral for nothing.  I agree that your medical problems are your own but absolutely disagree that you should ever lie,cheat or be immoral to get a job.  After all what else would you lie, cheat or be immoral about?

confused
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #36 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 1:50am
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confused wrote on Feb 20th, 2003 at 1:27am:
Michelle and others,

I want to make sure I have this right.  You do not want to tell a LEA you have a medical problem and take prescription medication.  They don't care and won't ask but if they do you will lie.  You don't think that is immoral, of course we all tell some lies but I don't think that means it is not immoral (thou shalt not lie is not amended by, unless "its none of their business").  So you have decided to lie if asked and you wonder how you can hide this lie.  so based on advice from this forum you have now decided to not only lie but to cheat on the test to hide your lie.


I don't think I understand your objection.  Refusing to answer a question isn't lying.  Likewise, privacy is a valid concept.  Perhaps she can correct me, but I don't believe Michelle is talking about lying -- she intends to answer relevant questions truthfully, and feels no need to volunteer additional information about her life that the employer doesn't need to know. Lying doesn't come into the picture.

As for the polygraph, isn't it supposed to be a "lie detector"?  If she's not lying, and the "test" registers that fact, what possible problem could one have with the situation?

Skeptic
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #37 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 2:18am
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Confused....

>>I am sure they will not ask about prescribed medication so you are preparing to lie, cheat and be immoral for nothing.  I agree that your medical problems are your own but absolutely disagree that you should ever lie,cheat or be immoral to get a job.  After all what else would you lie, cheat or be immoral about<<

There is nothing in my background I am concerned about the police department knowing.  Nothing when it comes to stealing, cheating, etc.  That means that I will pass the polygraph and I will pass the background check.  I am not doing anything illegal.

The *only* reason they could possibly want to know about ADHD or Dex is for discrimination reasons.  It sure doesn't have anything to do with my job, why would I give them a reason to discriminate?  I could use the Amer. Dis. Act and go that route but I am not concerned about discrimination because I am not going to tell them about ADHD or Dex.

Considering there is absolutely no reason they need to know about my issues and the ONLY thing they can possibly do with that information is to discriminate, no... I have no problem keeping that to myself in whatever manner I must do so.

>>(thou shalt not lie is not amended by, unless "its none of their business").<<

Isn't America the most wonderful country in the world?  We are not all required to follow your god.  Some of us can depend on morality and critical thinking skills instead.  Isn't that wonderful?   Cheesy
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Skeptic
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #38 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 2:27am
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I must say, whether she intended it to or not, Michelle's situation has illustrated beautifully one of the main problems I see with the polygraph (pre-employment screening, mainly):  the fact that it is influenced by a myriad of variables, including the subject's own perceptions.  It thus becomes a tool for delving into material that a potential employer has no right in which to delve; yet, the subject is in danger of being found "deceptive" if he or she refuses to divulge the information.

Despite the "hotkeyed" responses we got from our resident polygraphers, Michelle is not talking about lying.  She is talking about her right to keep private information private, despite the fact that it causes the polygraph to "misfire".  In order for polygraphers to insist that she should "fess up", they must claim the right to delve into virtually any private matter regardless of relevance, if the subject doesn't want to suffer the consequences.  Simultaneously, by urging Michelle to tell the polygrapher about an irrelevant private concern rather than reassuring her that the polygraph won't mistake that for a lie, they've essentially admitted that the polygraph has a problem with false-positives. As Batman said, "What I believe isn't important in a case like this, it's what [she] believes".

It's not about lying; it's about prying. Our poly-guys, ever-ready with their knee-jerk responses, seem to have fallen into quite a trap (unintentional, I'm sure, but still pretty darn interesting).

By the way -- I wanted to post my agreement with what Michelle said about polygraphers in general.  Although I do tend to paint them with a broad brush at times (especially when flipping crap at Batman and Torpedo), I completely agree that many (and perhaps most) polygraphers, like the rest of us, are likely good people who at some level believe in what they do.  I believe they're badly misguided, but that doesn't make them bad people.

Skeptic
« Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:00am by Skeptic »  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #39 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:06am
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Skeptic...

>>I must say, whether she intended it to or not, Michelle's situation has illustrated beautifully one of the main problems I see with the polygraph (pre-employment screening, mainly):  the fact that it is influenced by a myriad of variables, including the subject's own perceptions.  It thus becomes a tool for delving into material that a potential employer has no right in which to delve; yet, the subject is in danger of being found "deceptive" if he or she refuses to divulge the information<<

Very true.  By law I do not have to tell of AD/HD or Dex.  My employer does not have the right to ask me for that information unless I choose to share it.  Yet from the polygraphers thinking I have to tell of information that I do not legally have to tell so that they will know they have no right to know that information.

Now seriously, how much sense does that make?  I am supposed to feel uneasy about this?  Hardly, my moral position is superior to that of the one that might insist on knowing that information.

I'm so glad I came here.  Now I know what to expect and how to handle it once and for all.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #40 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:20am
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I am not adept at bulletin boards, I am sure that makes me inferior in some minds, and don't know how to show parts of posts but if you are not going to lie then why bother to cheat?  I guess we can all give rationalizations as to why we do things wrong but they are still wrong.

As far as religion, I am not very but you brought that up not me.  You are right about the ADA.  Asking about medical conditions would be a violation so they don't ask.  However I believe that if they give you a conditional offer of employment they can ask.

Still confused, "none of their business" "not going to tell them" "my private medical situation", you haven't been asked, will probably (can't understand why they would) will not be asked but you wwant to know how to "get around this on the test" and will cheat if necessary???????  Lying and cheating is immoral but liars and cheats don't usually have a problem morality.

Why not see what happens?  Maybe you don't want to lie but you sure are eager to learn how to cheat if it becomes necessary.  I doubt if you are a liar or a cheat.  Why not just be honest?  If the Polygraph guy calls you a liar at least you won't be.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #41 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:39am
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>>I am not adept at bulletin boards, I am sure that makes me inferior in some minds, and don't know how to show parts of posts<<

Inferior?  Oh please.  Look at the top of this message.  See "quote" and click on it.  Poof, you can quote now.

>>but if you are not going to lie then why bother to cheat?  I guess we can all give rationalizations as to why we do things wrong but they are still wrong.<<

Wrong is subjective.  I think it is wrong to use a polygraph to get around the law regarding ADHD and Dex.  I am told I will be asked about any drugs I take.  Period.  What am I supposed to say?  Yeah, I take amphetamines daily!  Then I can either explain it and tell about ADHD or I can refuse and look like a drug abuser.  Not much of a choice.  I think that is without morality.

Per your bible you also need to follow the laws of the land and the law of this land is that they cannot ask me questions that put me in a position to discuss ADHD or Dex.  They have found a way around that.  I maintain that I have absolutely no problem at all defending my right in *any* way I choose.  If you don't like that.... I guess I have to tell you that I don't care.

>>As far as religion, I am not very but you brought that up not me.<<

Excuse me?  I brought up a generality of religion and polygraphs.  You are the one quoting the big 10.  Understand one thing 'Oh confused one, xtianity is NOT the only religion in this country and quite frankly there are a variety of gods so to assume the term 'religion' means xtianity is very wrong.

>>You are right about the ADA.  Asking about medical conditions would be a violation so they don't ask.

In a way they do as explained in an earlier post to Skeptic.

>>However I believe that if they give you a conditional offer of employment they can ask.<<

No, they cannot.  They *can* verify that I am healthy and able to perform the job.  They can verify that I am not currently using illegal drugs via a drug screen.  They can verify that I have no contagious diseases but they cannot give me a conditional offer of a job based on if I tell them of private medical issues at a later date.  It doesn't work that way.

>>Lying and cheating is immoral but liars and cheats don't usually have a problem morality.<<

Didn't we go through this one a few times so far?

>>Why not see what happens?  Maybe you don't want to lie but you sure are eager to learn how to cheat if it becomes necessary.  I doubt if you are a liar or a cheat.  Why not just be honest?  If the Polygraph guy calls you a liar at least you won't be.<<

Have you actually read this thread?  Have you?  I'm not going to continue repeating myself.  See above and above and above and above.  That will answer your questions that have been previously answered.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #42 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:40am
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confused wrote on Feb 20th, 2003 at 3:20am:
I guess we can all give rationalizations as to why we do things wrong but they are still wrong.


Knowing that a polygraph interrogator will absolutely lie to his interrogation subject, do you also hold their morals up to the same scrutiny?

Quote:
Why not see what happens?  Maybe you don't want to lie but you sure are eager to learn how to cheat if it becomes necessary.  I doubt if you are a liar or a cheat.  Why not just be honest?  If the Polygraph guy calls you a liar at least you won't be.


You *are* aware that a polygrapher *expects* you to lie during the polygraph, right?
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #43 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 5:06pm
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Michelle, maybe you should go back and read what you posted on "all" of your posts.  You should also read what everyone else says.  THEY WILL NOT ASK ABOUT PRESCRIBED MEDICATION.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding religion.  I simply pointed out that lying is a choice we make and just because we chose to lie doesn't make it right or moral.

Obviously I should have stayed out of this discussion.  You want to lie and cheat because it benefits you, go ahead its your choice.  That does not make it ok no matter how much you want it to be.  Sounds like if it helps you you will lie and or cheat as you see fit.  that sounds wrong to me.

I was not talking about the person giving the test.  Lying and cheating to get a job is wrong and unnecessary.  If the examiner is lying is it to hurt you?  What reason would they have to do that.  Maybe they are lying to help you?  Maybe they are not lying at all.

Its your test do what you want, personally I wouldn't want to hire anyone who lied or cheated to get a job but that's just me.  Obviously some people on this site not only would but encourage it.

I am glad I found this site, very interesting.

confused
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #44 - Feb 20th, 2003 at 6:39pm
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Very Confused...

>>Michelle, maybe you should go back and read what you posted on "all" of your posts.  You should also read what everyone else says.  THEY WILL NOT ASK ABOUT PRESCRIBED MEDICATION<<

Read post #1.

>>I have no idea what you are talking about regarding religion.<<

Really?  I spelled it out for you but I will do so again.  You quoted the xtian god and I explained to you that not everyone believes in your god.  There are a garden variety of gods out there, the xtian god is just one of them.  What part of that don't you comprehend?

>>I simply pointed out that lying is a choice we make and just because we chose to lie doesn't make it right or moral.<<

And I already explained to you that what is "moral" is subjective.  What is moral to you is seriously lacking in morality for me and vice versa.

>>Obviously I should have stayed out of this discussion.  You want to lie and cheat because it benefits you, go ahead its your choice.<<

Hey, if it trips your little trigger to interpret this entire thread in that way, that is your problem darl'en, not mine.

>>That does not make it ok no matter how much you want it to be.<<

Then I would suggest you not do it.

>>Sounds like if it helps you you will lie and or cheat as you see fit.  that sounds wrong to me.<<

So?  Are you under the impression that if you repeat yourself enough times it will somehow make a difference to me?

>>I was not talking about the person giving the test.  Lying and cheating to get a job is wrong and unnecessary.  If the examiner is lying is it to hurt you?  What reason would they have to do that.  Maybe they are lying to help you?  Maybe they are not lying at all.<<

Do you people still use the inside walls of your cave for artwork?  Or have you discovered the joy of picture hangers yet?

>>Its your test do what you want, personally I wouldn't want to hire anyone who lied or cheated to get a job but that's just me.  Obviously some people on this site not only would but encourage it.<<

See now... I wouldn't want to hire someone with a reading comprehension problem.  It would make written instructions more than annoying.
  
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