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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do I deal with this? (Read 61480 times)
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #150 - Feb 25th, 2003 at 5:49pm
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Confused,

You write in part:

Quote:
...Would you like to see the drawer full of letters thanking me for clearing them of this awfull accusation?  What doesn't seem to get much play here is that the majority of examiners would rather miss a bad guy (false negative) than call a truthful person a criminal (false positive)....


Your pile of letters would be equally high if not higher if you abandoned polygraph testing and simply declared everyone non-deceptive.  You are completely deceived if you believe this has any bearing on the validity of the exams you have conducted.  With regard to your latter quoted statement, me thinks I detect crocodile tears here.  If you (or any other polygrapher) want me and others to truly believe your stated concerns then I would have you publicly criticize any agency/bureau which would use unsubstantiated polygraph results (which might include the false positives you say are of concern to you) as a basis for taking any action detrimental to a polygraph examinee.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #151 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 10:15am
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Torpedo...

So do tell, are you quite fininshed stomping your little feeties?  Balling up your little fisties adds to the drama for you, doesn't it?

Done any research on AD/HD yet?  No, I didn't think so.  From all the misinformation you spew it is so very obvious that you  have never researched this topic.  The line of thinking you try to pass off as intelligent information is actually thinking that went out in the 70's.  Yes, you are 30 years behind in research.  Not that *truth* matters to you, just stomping those little feeties while sticking your thumbs in your ears and blowing raspberries at everyone.  Oh yes, such maturity.

In reality all you are doing is redirecting the thread away from Batman and trying to focus it on me instead.  Isn't going to work, my friend.  You are still an asshole and your little polygraph friends leave little to be desired as well.  I am more convinced than ever just from reading you, confused, and batman that polygraphs are nothing but horseshit.  Manipulative, inaccurate, attempts at intimidation.  If you weren't such a twit you would see that you guys are proving the points of the antipolygraphers here.  You are just too stupid to see it.

Now go ahead, let's see another of your temper tantrums.  You do them so well.  Com'on... let's see it.  You can do it.  Let's see a good one this time.  Perhaps you'll hold your breath until you faint this time?  That would be amusing.

And confused, yes darl'en you are still confused.  I'm not addressing your post point by point because you have made it quite clear in spite of the folks that have attempted time and time again to explain that you just don't get it.  But that's because you are confused.  Huh... kinda like Batman.

When batboy gets in too deep, you show up.  Kewl.

All you polygraphers are so stuck on slams and insults you never answer any questions and my question *still* stands.  Since you all apparently missed the (several) posts I referred to it, I'll remind you once again.

If I were to give you all polygraphs, would you pass?
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #152 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 4:46pm
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I think your biggest medical problem is the one that only allows you to read only the parts you want to.

I actually told skeptic I agreed Batman should not have accused you of drug abuse.  AS for coming to his defense the first time I ever heard of him was in this thread.

Slams and insults are your bag, just like lying and cheating.

As for polygraphers passing a test.  I have tested many, some pass some don't just like anyone else.  Would I pass a test? As long as I didn't lie.  Could I lie and pass, maybe?  Rather not take the chance.

Now I answered your question and you still have not answered mine, just danced around it.  Do you think it is wrong to lie and cheat to get a job?  I know what your answer is but would like to here you say it.  Just a simple yes or no will do.

I would discuss polygraph with most of the posters here because they at least have some first hand knowledge or experience.  You on the other hand have none.  You became an instant expert.  You came here hoping someone would say it was ok for you to lie and looking for a way to make it work.

Some one said earlier they would not like to see you working in LE , I agree but thats just my opinion.

By the way, not to long ago we had a dispatcher that had an attack at work and died because no one knew she had an existing medical condition.

Your feet stomp pretty well too and your a classic winer.

never was confused, now, disgusted (with you)
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #153 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 5:02pm
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Confused,

Although I note you are quite willing to continue in meaningless low level banter and name calling with Michelle, I wonder if you might care to comment on what I consider what I believe to be a serious and substantive reply to you recently.  Regards,

That post (which includes a portion of your previous post):

Quote:
Confused,

You write in part:


...Would you like to see the drawer full of letters thanking me for clearing them of this awfull accusation?  What doesn't seem to get much play here is that the majority of examiners would rather miss a bad guy (false negative) than call a truthful person a criminal (false positive)....



Your pile of letters would be equally high if not higher if you abandoned polygraph testing and simply declared everyone non-deceptive.  You are completely deceived if you believe this has any bearing on the validity of the exams you have conducted.  With regard to your latter quoted statement, me thinks I detect crocodile tears here.  If you (or any other polygrapher) want me and others to truly believe your stated concerns then I would have you publicly criticize any agency/bureau which would use unsubstantiated polygraph results (which might include the false positives you say are of concern to you) as a basis for taking any action detrimental to a polygraph examinee.

  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #154 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 6:13pm
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Confused

In my previous post, maybe I used the wrong terminology in the first paragraph. Instead of "give rise to debate" I should have said "enlighten me". As stated, my lack of polygraph knowledge caused me to ask the question. How can you hope to win over visiters to this site if you don't truthfully answer those who are trying to understand. I am pretty set in my ways but still willing to learn.

Batman, Torpedo, etc.,

I will put the question as a hypo: You have a subject in you chair. You ask a relevant question that greatly angers the "innocent" subject causing his BP to spiral upwards and changes his breathing pattern (these changes significantally different from the control questions), would you determine him deceptive? Would the anger response show differently than a lie response? I have my own uninformed ideas but would like to hear from some pro's.

Maybe some anti-polygraph answers?
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #155 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 6:14pm
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What is it exactly you want me to publicly critisize?  I would need more information.

If you are asking me if I would point out publicly something I thought to be wrong? Yes I would and have.

Tell me what profession you are in?  I am sure someone could find something bad about it.  Maybe an anti-site might be started regarding the many wrongs done by your profession to humanity.

I do now and have always tried to be as professional and ethical and I can.  Everyone who comes to me for a test gets my best effort and I expect that from all examiners.  I am not perfect and never will be but I try.  I am the one who has to live with what I do.  I sleep pretty well.

confused? no
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #156 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 6:48pm
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Confused (Or whatever name you desired to be called now),

You write:

Quote:
...If you are asking me if I would point out publicly something I thought to be wrong? Yes I would and have....


Really???   And which agency (there are several that are known to arbitrarily eliminate applicants for further consideration for employment folliwng deceptive polygraph results) that uses unsubstantiated polygraph exams as a basis for further action have you publicly criticized (whispering under your breath, gossiping with fellow polygraph examiners, or even expressing such a view in a polygraph meeting doesn't count) and what benefit has come of your public commentary.  If you have actually done so, I loudly applaud you...if not it is time for you and those in your community who have the intellect to recognize the problems we have discussed to exhibit the courage to stand up and castigate those who would continue in such activity.  Anything less may be understandable in a practical sense, but is nevertheless ultimately indefensible and nothing short of cowardice when truly scrutinized.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #157 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 7:43pm
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According to you, all Polygraphs are unsubstantiated.  Obviously I disagree.  Do examiners make bad calls? Yes.  Do doctors mis-diagnose? Yes.  Do lawyers blow cases and get their clients sent to prison?  Yes.  Do pharmacy techs ever give out the wrong Rx?  Yes.  Do Police officers ever arrest the wrong people?  Yes.  Everybody,especially polygraph examiners are evil when they make a mistake and therefore you can't trust them.

By the way, you didn't say what your profession is.  Could it be that it is a very unreliable profession and all of its practicioners are evil?

What makes you think we in the profession don't address what we feel is wrong?  When was the last time you were on tv or in the paper saying " the other people in my profession are incompetent and my profession needs to be cleaned up"?

  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #158 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 7:59pm
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Confused,

I have never said all polygraph exam results were unsubstantiated. (I challenge you to quote me as having said so or apologize).  My comments to you have not included such or even addressed what percentage is unsubstantiated.  I have simply said it is cowardice on your part and other polygraph examiners not to criticize those agencies that use these results improperly (taking action against the interests of examinees based on unsubstantiated polygraph results).  My profession is immaterial and irrelevant to this discussion and apparently is the only diversion and hiding place from the substance of this exchange that apparently comes to your mind.  Again, such is irrelevant and immaterial.  This conversation is about polygraph and the site is antipolygraph.org.  But in reality my comments might well have been made on a site not entitled antipolygraph.org but one entitled siteforamoresaneandethicalpolygraphprofession.org
Regards...
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #159 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 10:51pm
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Ok, if I miss quoted you I am sorry.  I guess its easy to get confused with everyone trying to bash me and all examiners on this site.  I guess that meets your challenge?? 

Please devine unsustantiated as you mean it.

Sorry your profession is immaterial.  My point was that most of the rehtoric spewed here could be applied to alot of professions.  You can't seem to believe or choose not to, that the Polygraph profession does try to correct problems aas best as possible.  We believe in what we do.  You do not.  I can't help that but attacking any examiner who shows up here and treating them like gum from the bottom of your shoe isn't particularly productive.

I voice my opinion if I beleive something is wrong with this profession or with anything else.  Where I do it and how I go about it depends on the situation.  You throw out the baby with the bathwater if you want, me I try to get the "facts" before I decide
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #160 - Feb 26th, 2003 at 11:17pm
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confused,

I do believe most polygraphers believe in what they do and don't want to make mistakes.  Indeed, trying to reduce the number of mistakes due to "fear of consequences" was one of the driving forces in creating the nearly univerally used CQT half a century ago rather than the more deficient R/I test. One of the reasons the polygraph community encourages belief that the polygraph is nearly infallible is, in addition to self interest, that it is assumed to reduce the number of false positives by lowering anxiety on the relevant questions. For similar reasons they don't tell the examinee the true purpose of the control questions.

Of course one can't deceive the deceiver hence my curiosity about how polygraphers examine another polygrapher. Obviously they can't go through the usual control question sensitization process.

IMO, deception in the pursuit of truth is no virtue.

-Marty
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2003 at 12:03am by Marty »  

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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #161 - Feb 27th, 2003 at 1:43am
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Marty,

Acouple of small points.  I don't believe CQT testing came about due to "fear of consequences".  It came about over concern for truthful people.  Do you think that some one lying about crime questions on a test care about any other questions on the test?  It is not that hard to catch a liar on a Polygraph.

I don't know of any Polygraph examiner who feels the test is nearly infallible.  You have to work hard to do a good test.

If the purpose of a control question is to help truthful people on a test why is that bad?  It neither helps nor hurts liars, so whats the problem. 

Let's talk about drug research.  In trials it used to be common to give a control group placebo's.  If they were told that, would it not defeat the purpose of the placebo?

As far as testing other examiners let me talk about my own Philosophy on taking the test.  If I don't lie I won't respond to the questions and they have no basis to say I did.  I will say further that on examiners I have tested a few showed responses to the relevant questions and I told them that.  All but one told me I was correct.  They said, just as normal people have, that they were embarrassed and didn't want to tell me about something.  When they did tell me and were later tested on that issue they all passsed.  All but one who wouldn't tell me and refused to come back and be tested in the area of concern.  I can't help that it was their choice to withdraw from the process.

I don't know if that helps and I know it didn't make a dent in some of the people here but again I can't help that.

I am not sure exactly what your last sentence meant but I wouldn't argue with the content.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #162 - Feb 27th, 2003 at 2:36am
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confused wrote on Feb 27th, 2003 at 1:43am:
Marty,

Acouple of small points.  I don't believe CQT testing came about due to "fear of consequences".  It came about over concern for truthful people.  Do you think that some one lying about crime questions on a test care about any other questions on the test?  It is not that hard to catch a liar on a Polygraph.


Having read the history of the CQT in Kleiner's manual let me be more specific. Earlier, the polygraph was given with questions like "Is your name xxx?" together with relevant questions like "did you rob the bank?"  This produced a high false positive rate due to some people that feared being falsely accused (fear of consequences).  The CQT was developed to mitigate this by coming up with a question the examiner doesn't really care about but can convince the examinee that they do. Though I am bothered by the deception involved, it can, if pulled off, improve the odds of a not getting a false positive.

Quote:
I don't know of any Polygraph examiner who feels the test is nearly infallible.  You have to work hard to do a good test.


I agree with you on both counts.  It is the more naive general populace that believes the polygraph nearly infallible.

Quote:

If the purpose of a control question is to help truthful people on a test why is that bad?  It neither helps nor hurts liars, so whats the problem.  

That does get back to my real question of interest, how polygraphers test each other.  A control question helps innocent people when they don't understand how it works but not if they do or if they are unusually honest. It works against them then. Polygraphers certainly can't fool each other and should be at higher risk of false positives if CQTs are also used on them - assuming they are scored the same as naive subjects. I guess I just don't like deception, even when it is used for good ends, especially in employee screening.

Quote:
Let's talk about drug research.  In trials it used to be common to give a control group placebo's.  If they were told that, would it not defeat the purpose of the placebo?


Actually in ethical drug tests, and this has long been the practice, the subjects are told that some of them will recieve placebo's and they are told what percentage.  That's part of informed consent.  The doctors administering the drugs don't even know who is getting the placebo.


Quote:
As far as testing other examiners let me talk about my own Philosophy on taking the test.  If I don't lie I won't respond to the questions and they have no basis to say I did.  I will say further that on examiners I have tested a few showed responses to the relevant questions and I told them that.


Hmm. Are you saying that when you give another polygrapher a test that you exclude Control questions? Since the way a CQT is scored is comparison of the Controls to the Relevant's (again Kleiner) it would seem a person who is not actually deceptive on either would score as inconclusive. It would then seem the test becomes a R/I or at best a directed lie type test. I'm not trying to hammer you, just understand how you adapt the test when testing other polygraphers.

Quote:
I don't know if that helps and I know it didn't make a dent in some of the people here but again I can't help that.


Yes, it helps a little. Thanks.

-Marty
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2003 at 2:54am by Marty »  

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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #163 - Feb 27th, 2003 at 3:40am
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Marty,

Actually Confused is partially right.  The present control question CQT examination was not constructed to deal with "fear of consequences."  That, in fact, is a term that I coined a couple of years ago (on this site) to explain why the present probable lie CQT (several formats) would not be expected to work.  The CQT exam when developed in the early 1960s was initially thought to provide some degree of scientific control  (hence the name) and was a remedy for the problems associated with asking the litany of hot button (relevant question) items associated with the largely now discredited RI test.  It was not until the mid 1990s that more responsible CQT practitioners admitted that there was no scientific control (but unfortunately overlooked their responsibility for providing such) associated with control questions and then began referring to these questions as comparison questions.

Confused,

You ask what is the problem with trying to help truthful examinees with the use of control questions.  I suppose I should indicate before answering that question that I have never before and do not now question the good intentions of most examiners.  The answer to your question, however, is that it simply does not work and/or cannot be shown to work as you would hope.  In order for CQT practice to work, fundamental theory would require that it would be necessary to show that for every control/relevant question pairing that the affect (emotional content) for the control be greater than for a relevant question for a given truthful examinee which in turn would naturally lead to greater physiological responses (over the various monitored channels of physiology) for control versus relevant questions.  Unfortunately this cannot be demonstrated to be the case with any given examinee.  It is NOT demonstrable that this is the case qualitatively or quantitatively for any given examinee (regardless of what you think you may have accomplished through the setting of control questions) on any given asking for any R/C question pairing (spot) for any given chart on any given day with any given examinee.  In fact, that which I have previously discussed at some length and referred to as “fear of consequences” would lead me to believe that what you would hope to accomplish with innocent examinees is not only not demonstrable, but in many many cases not likely.  Again, I am sorry, but your good intentions will not overcome the weaknesses of the tools in your arsenal.  It is primarily for this reason and the great consequences to innocent examinees that I have been driven (for both academic/validity and ethical  issues/concerns) to information based tests.  I do not believe that polygraphy should be or need be done away with, but I believe it must be and is not currently (with most lie detection formats) practiced as a serious undertaking.

On a note of lesser importance, Marty is quite correct that clinical trials of investigational new drugs will  involve the experimental subjects knowing about the nature of placebos, their possible effects and adverse side effects, etc.  As Marty further indicated neither physicians nor patients in a typical double blind study will be aware of which pharmaceutical preparations that they receive contain active ingredients and which are placebo, but as opposed to the pretest characterization of probable lie control questions in a polygraph examination, there will be absolutely no deceit connected with the discussion involving experimental subjects regarding the nature, identity, and effects of placebos.
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2003 at 6:42pm by Drew Richardson »  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #164 - Feb 27th, 2003 at 3:51am
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confused wrote on Feb 27th, 2003 at 1:43am:
 It is not that hard to catch a liar on a Polygraph.


If you call 'a 50% chance' 'not that hard' then I agree with you.

Quote:
I don't know of any Polygraph examiner who feels the test is nearly infallible.


My goodness, you do live in a cave. Regardless, polygraphers routinely make blatant lies on television news programs concerning the accuracy of polygraphs, claiming anything from 100% accuracy to the old Dove Bar 99.97% accurate. Either they are lying or you are lying. Which is it? If I pointed out specific polygraphers who characterize the polygraph as nearly infallible both in print and in the televised media, will you personally take the time to correct them? Let's start with The Nationwide Polygraph Network. They boldy proclaim on their welcome page that the polygraph is '90-95% accurate'. Then in their FAQ they claim U.S. Government studies have concluded that the polygraph exam, conducted properly by a qualified examiner, is 87 to 95 percent accurate. Kind of a large disparity between those two sets of numbers, but oh well-- when did THE TRUTH ever matter to a lying sack of excrement like a polygrapher? Will you drop what you're doing and correct Michael Martin, aka 'The Lie Detector Guy'? Call him at (877) POLY TEST.

Quote:
If I don't lie I won't respond to the questions and they have no basis to say I did.


In the interests of accuracy, you are saying that if you answer 100% truthfully to the Control Questions, you will not be deemed as deceptive with regard to the relevant Questions?

Dave

ps I characterize anyone who lies for a living a lying sack of excrement. Your opinion or characterization may differ-- so be it.
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2003 at 4:32am by beech trees »  

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