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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How do I deal with this? (Read 61481 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Michelle
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #15 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 8:54pm
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Torpedo...

Maybe one of the issues here is that people have a misconception about adult ADD/ADHD.  Most people in this world do have misconceptions of ADD/ADHD (aka AD/HD).  Most think of a 5 year old ADHD kid screaming at the top of his lungs while climbing the walls and believe me, when I was 5 I did that.  My Mom used to say that I could make Christ jump off the cross.

This is not the same for an adult.  Yes, I have the hyperactivity part of ADHD.  Hyperactivity is the difference between ADD and ADHD.  *MY* hyperactivity comes out when I swing my foot, tap my fingernails against a table, something along those lines.  ADHD does not affect my logic, my critical thinking skills, or ability to make choices in a serious situation.

I used to run a 75 bed care home.  I did it for years.  I went back to Pharmacy because running a care home did not afford me the time to go back to school.  I want to go and finish my BSN. (Nursing)  I'm almost done but I quit for a variety of reasons.  I cannot go to school while working 60-70 hours a week.  Even I don't have enough hyperactivity to work 60+ hours a week, carry 12 credits, study, AND be on call for the care home.  Wink

I have been in retail and hospital pharmacy.  The average error rate for a pharmacist is 2.5 errors per month.  For CPhT's it is 4.8 per month.  In a hospital setting it was possible to measure my errors because everything I did was done via computer and each error I made was documented unlike in retail where most errors are never known.  My error rate was 2 in 8 months time.  That is less than 1%.  My error rate is less than a pharmacist.  And I had ADHD when I worked in a hospital too.

I can prove I am a responsible person, I can prove my error rate is not only less than the average CPhT, it is less than an RPh, it is also less than every national average I have ever read and I just read the latest stats less than a week ago.

As you can see, assuming I am not making all this up, and I am not, ADHD does not prevent me from critical thinking skills or the ability to perform a job well under stress.  I am an exceptional employee and that is another reason I don't need the Amer. Dis. Act to protect me because of ADHD.  I don't need to tell anyone, ADHD does not affect my job, my choices, the way I handle a situation.  All Dexedrine does it makes things easier for me.  It doesn't take effort for me to think and focus.  Either way I can do it, but with Dex it doesn't take effort.

While you (assuming you do not have AD/HD) may be able to sit still and not swing your foot, click your nails, tap your nails on a table, etc.  I cannot without Dex.  While you may have no problem focusing on a book you are reading and absorbing the information, I do.  It takes a lot more effort for me to maintain the same focus and concentration.  With Dex I can out read, out work, and out function 99% of employees in the work force today.  With Dex my thinking is just like yours or anyone else for that matter.

ADHD does not mean an inability to do a job.  It is quite amazing how many people are being treated in this world.  Your doc may be taking Dex, your neurosurgeon doing brain surgery might be taking Dex, your banker and lawyer might be taking Dex but you would never know it in a million years because it just doesn't show.  There are zero symptoms while taking meds.  None, zippo, nada.

There is no danger of an AD/HD person doing a police dispatcher's job.  None.  It is a non issue.  I can't help but to think that many people here have preconceived ideas of what an ADHD'er looks like or behaves like.  Most don't have the slightest idea that another has this disorder because nothing shows.  There are no problems while the disorder is treated and I'll tell you something else, I was running a care home for 5 years and doing quite well before I was ever diagnosed.  My b/f (of 15 years) is a psychiatrist.  He always told me I had ADHD and I told him he was nuts, I did not.  Long story short he was right.  My point is that I have always been quite successful in an employment setting even before I was diagnosed and treated.  Now life is simply much easier and much more enjoyable.

I maintain, taking Dex will not affect my abilities to do a job, do it well, and do it safely.  Having AD/HD is the same, it will not affect my job... etc.  Having this disorder is private information.  I did not come here to ask if I should tell or not, I came here to ask how to deal with the fact that I am not going to tell of private medical issues.

And by the way, Torpedo, a martyr does not want to refrain from telling about this, a martyr looks for excuses to tell the whole world how mean the world is.  I am trying to avoid telling the world anything at all.

Seems to me that I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.  If I don't explain why I don't want to tell... I am being unreasonable and just tell them for goodness sakes!  If I explain why I don't want to tell I am a martyr.

You know what?  I give up.  I completely give up.  This is my last effort to explain anything.  If someone has suggestions... cool.  If someone has anything positive to add to the topic, great!  If someone wants to offer thoughts and opinions on how not to tell... fantastic!  I'd appreciate that.  But to continue telling me to explain private medical issues to an employer is not fruitful.  If I was willing to do that I wouldn't be here.

If someone else wants to take pop shots at my honesty or integrity... spiffy.  I simply won't respond.  If someone wants to continue assuming that I am as capable of doing a dispatchers job as a panda bear... think what you will.  I don't care.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #16 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:10pm
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Michelle,
I agree with you that this medical condition is none of your employer's business.  It won't affect your job performance, isn't anything that can be used to blackmail you, and doesn't reflect on your character.  You are taking your medication legally and it has no impact on your job performance or other negative ramifications; thus, there is no reason for this employer to know about it, or DQ you for it.  They might as well inquire as to whether your arms are equal length, or whether you have psoriasis.

The best advice you've gotten thus far is to apply for a job with an agency that doesn't require a polygraph, as I agree with you that your emotional response regarding your medication can quite likely influence the outcome of the polygraph, which could be interpreted as you lying about illegal drug use.  Just another reason why polygraph pre-screening should be done away-with.

If you really want this job, I see nothing ethically wrong with practicing and employing countermeasures; they can be highly effective.  There are no guarantees, though.

Skeptic
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #17 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:17pm
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michelle,
take it easy, deep breath.... (I'm not being sarcastic). You let a message board get you all worked up.


Taz...

Yep, you are right.  It is obvious that I am not expressing myself well and when I try then I am dishonest (One cannot believe how I could be honest about how my doctor prescribes meds???) or I am now a martyr.  I fully accept that it is me not making myself clear.  But I don't know how to make myself any more clear.  I truly don't know how to spell it out any more than I have.

>>The only problem with trying to conceal anything in your background that will be insignificant to them is that they will give you the old, "Well if you're trying to hide something so insignificant, what else are you trying to hide". Just have a real legit reason, and maybe they'll let it slide, that is if they ever find out<<

If they find out at a later time that I did not tell them of private medical issues and they fire me over it... so be it.  My life won't come to an end.  The risk is worth it to me to keep private info private.

You know what amazes me?  In light of 9/11 and other terrorist issues the issue of rights have become front page news.  How many of our rights do we want to give up in the name of safety?  Clearly, that is an issue for an entirely different board but my point is this... so many are complaining that their privacy is being invaded and it is!  Yet people here are suggesting that I give up my privacy willingly... just because.  Because why!  Because I might get sick at work and my employer won't know what to tell paramedics?

Nope, I don't get it.  Call me dense, but I still don't get it.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #18 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:22pm
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And BTW -- don't be too hard on Torpedo and Batman.  As polygraphers, they're trained to believe people owe them their innermost secrets.  It's a hard habit to break.

Skeptic
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #19 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:27pm
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:10pm:
Michelle,
I agree with you that this medical condition is none of your employer's business.  It won't affect your job performance, isn't anything that can be used to blackmail you, and doesn't reflect on your character.  You are taking your medication legally and it has no impact on your job performance or other negative ramifications; thus, there is no reason for this employer to know about it, or DQ you for it.  They might as well inquire as to whether your arms are equal length, or whether you have psoriasis. ...

...If you really want this job, I see nothing ethically wrong with practicing and employing countermeasures; they can be highly effective.  There are no guarantees, though.


Skeptic...

Thank you.  This is what I have been looking for.  I am actually a very honest person and the notion of attempting to fool a polygraph makes me feel somewhat uneasy and I wanted other thoughts on this.  Is it immoral?  If so, why is it immoral?  I am not trying to avoid information they have a right to know, it isn't like that.

I guess one of the issues I was hoping to find here is the potential topic of... is it wrong to keep private info private especially in light of 9/11 and if so, why?  Polygraphs play a huge role in privacy issues along with all the other issues I have read here.  The error factor, the mental manipulation, etc.

I am still working on d/l'ing the book explaining about countermeasures but since my new computer sucks I am unable to do so.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #20 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:31pm
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:22pm:
And BTW -- don't be too hard on Torpedo and Batman.  As polygraphers, they're trained to believe people owe them their innermost secrets.  It's a hard habit to break.

Skepticd


HA!  I guess I didn't realize Torpedo was a polygrapher.  Now it makes a little more sense.

Makes me wonder if they believe religion or religious beliefs should play a role in polygraphs as well.  Especially for pre-employment screening.  If so, why?

Think they'll take a stab at that one?   Grin
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #21 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:34pm
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Michelle wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:31pm:
HA!  I guess I didn't realize Torpedo was a polygrapher.  Now it makes a little more sense.

Makes me wonder if they believe religion or religious beliefs should play a role in polygraphs as well.  Especially for pre-employment screening.  If so, why?

Think they'll take a stab at that one?   Grin


I guess I should include a caveat -- to my knowledge Torpedo has never overtly admitted to being a polygrapher.  However, most of his posts on this board have been so derogatory and defensive (much like Batman's) one easily concludes he has something to feel pretty guilty about.

Skeptic
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #22 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:36pm
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:22pm:
And BTW -- don't be too hard on Torpedo and Batman.  As polygraphers, they're trained to believe people owe them their innermost secrets.  It's a hard habit to break.

Skepticd


YIKES!  How could I have missed Torpedo's quote and not realized his line of work:

>>at least the anti-polygraphers have shown some degree of ethical behavior.  Thought I would never say this, but I am proud of them....on this point.<<

:::smacking self:::

I do believe I will take EXTRA dex on the day of the polygraph just to be more calm and more relaxed so that something like him won't get to me.

That is another good reason for coming here before a polygraph, just seeing their manipulation and twisted logic.  I would have never been prepared for that.  And you know what?  I'm not sure I would have believed the "normals" here had I not seen the polygraphers behave as they do for myself.  I'm not sure if they realize what a service they are doing for this board.

I am dead serious when I say that because of their attitudes and behaviors I am MORE prepared to pass this polygraph while keeping private info private.  Not sure that is something they want to hear but it's true.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #23 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:39pm
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Skeptic wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:34pm:
I guess I should include a caveat -- to my knowledge Torpedo has never overtly admitted to being a polygrapher.  However, most of his posts on this board have been so derogatory and defensive (much like Batman's) one easily concludes he has something to feel pretty guilty about.


Heh... good one.  It's funny because it is probably very true.
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #24 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:47pm
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Michelle,

Sounds like you have problems that run far deeper then the medical side.

Go ahead and utilize those countermeasures that folks like Septic recommend.  However, I found his statements very interesting, "If you really want this job, I see nothing ethically wrong with practicing and employing countermeasures; they can be highly effective.  There are no guarantees, though."

No guarantees.  Well if countermeasures are so damn effective, and if polygraph examiners can not detect them with any degree of certainty, then why are there no guarantees?

Download the "Lie...” read it through, and then step into the world of folks like George and Steinjc.  You'll most likely fail or get caught using the CM's.   Then you'll be disqualified for sure.  Then you can come back to this site and complain about how unfair the system is and how your life has been ruined.

I initially advised you to simply go in and lay down the truth.  You have made it very clear you had, and have no intention of doing that.  All you were looking for is someone like Septic to come along and give you a warm fuzzy that LIEING (just for you Steincj) was OK.  How did you put it, "Skeptic...
Thank you.  This is what I have been looking for." 

Well you got it baby.  Press on.  Can't wait to read your follow-on posts, you know, the cry of woe is me.

Batman

  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #25 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:19pm
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Batman...

>>Sounds like you have problems that run far deeper then the medical side.<<

No, your posting here has actually helped me a great deal.  I have learned more than you realize.  At least there won't be any surprises and I can thank you for that.

>>Go ahead and utilize those countermeasures that folks like Septic recommend.  However, I found his statements very interesting, "If you really want this job, I see nothing ethically wrong with practicing and employing countermeasures; they can be highly effective.  There are no guarantees, though."<<

Yes, I plan to.

>>No guarantees.  Well if countermeasures are so damn effective, and if polygraph examiners can not detect them with any degree of certainty, then why are there no guarantees?<<

Batman, there are no guarantees in life.  I do tend to believe that the CM's are effective.  The key is learning to do them effectively myself.  Then the odds are going to be more in my favor.

>>Download the "Lie...” read it through, and then step into the world of folks like George and Steinjc.  You'll most likely fail or get caught using the CM's.<<

Nahhhh... I'm not the least bit worried.  I have learned a great deal of info here and with each post I read I am more confident in the practice and theory of CM's.  I fully admit to being frustrated by the lack of info out there about adult ADHD but my views on the info available to the public regarding ADHD is probably not going to be an issue during the polygraph exam.

See... thing is ... I am an honest person.  There is nothing I have done in my past that I am worried about telling them.  I tried pot when I was in high school and absolutely hated it.  I don't use illegal drugs, I don't sell illegal drugs and matter of fact, I am about as anti-drug as one can be.  I don't take things that are not mine, I have a great deal of integrity, I haven't even had a traffic ticket in almost 24 years.  I have nothing to hide.

However, from this site I have learned that polygraphers have something to hide and now I am prepared.  I have been doing quite a bit of research and I am very confident that I will pass the test with flying colors.

>>Then you'll be disqualified for sure.  Then you can come back to this site and complain about how unfair the system is and how your life has been ruined.<<

Oh darl'en, there isn't a chance in the world that a polygrapher can ruin my life!  LOL... cute concept but really, your ego is too big.

You really don't get it, do you?  You are one of the key people that has given me the information I need to pass this test.  I have little doubt that I would not have done well on the test had I not come here first.  Now that I see what others are talking about I have a far better understanding of how people like you work and because of that, I am prepared.  I would have walked in there blind but now I know better.

But I do have one other comment and that is that I do NOT believe every polygrapher is like you.  I have always said that 95% of the population are nice, kind, decent, caring people that work hard and do their thing in life.  The other 5% are merely the standard "bad apples" that stick out.  I have no reason to believe polygraphers are any different.  Sure, there are exceptions to that rule and I would imagine that you are one of those exceptions.  But even you have not turned me off to the integrity of all polygraphers.

I do not believe that every polygrapher believes they are screwing people.  I think most probably believe that what they are doing has integrity and in that case, the polygrapher has integrity.  So if you are attempting to make me believe all polygraphers are as silly as you and if you are trying to get me to cop an attitude about all of them, you just failed.

>>I initially advised you to simply go in and lay down the truth.<<

Yes, you did however it was not good advice.

>>You have made it very clear you had, and have no intention of doing that.<<

Ahhh, finally you get it!

>>All you were looking for is someone like Septic to come along and give you a warm fuzzy that LIEING (just for you Steincj) was OK.  How did you put it, "Skeptic...
Thank you.  This is what I have been looking for."<<

Yes, intelligent advice, a little support, a better understanding of polygraphs, how some in your profession work, and potential future topics. 

>>Well you got it baby.  Press on.  Can't wait to read your follow-on posts, you know, the cry of woe is me.<<

Care to make a wager on that one?  Willing to put your money where your typing fingers are?
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #26 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:27pm
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Michelle,, it is not an amphetamine you need, despite your ADHD, it is a sedative!  You are correct about one thing...you apparently do not express yourself very well...but then again, perhaps I do not either...we all have our shortcomings.  First of all, without going into any in-depth discussion about this (you will probably jump all over me again) after reading all of your postings and the responses, I came to the conclusion that you were "on the horns of a dilema".  The standard (or at least I presume it to be based on what you provided) for the job that your were applying for was to take a polygraph test.  Ostensibly, you would have been asked about drugs that you were taking.  You make a conscious descision here...you tell them or you do not...if you do not it is something we call LYING.  This fact may escape you, but it is a polygraph test (aka "lie detector") you are taking.  Whether you want to accept this or not (I do not really care..especially after your unrelenting attack on me for simply trying to offier assistance) If you lie, it is my job to catch you lying (yes, I am a polygrapher...and damn proud of that fact)...and I will.  If you tell me the truth and your statements are within the guidelines established by the employer (I did not set them...they did) then that is what I report and you will probably get your job.  If you lie to me before, during, or after the test , I am obligated to report that to the person asing for the test on his behalf.  When I said that you should not make yourself a martyr, I was using that expression only because you sounded like you were beating yourself up...hence, my interpretation of martydom...right wrong or indifferent...that is  my interpretation.  Quite frankly, I did sympathize with you when you described your circumstance, but after absorbing your undeserved tirade...I stand by my previous statement....find another profession.  IMHO, and you are not going to like this, you do not have temperment to do something like dispatch for a police department.  Yes,I have much experience as a law enforcement officer and I admire the dispatcher who remains cool "under fire"...you lose it in a simple discussion on a chat board. If you do insist on seeking this job, I hope the polygraph examiner is wearing a flack jacket.  You have demonstrated what an explosive attitude you possess and when, as I suspect you will now do, and follow dumb-ass Septic's suggestion to use countermeasures, you do and get caught (you will...trust me), you will no doubt attack the examiner, either verbally or physically and then have the gall to blame the system.  You my friend are what I like to say, "about 2 cans shy of a six pack".  I wish you the best of luck in your employment endeavors, just never in law enforcement!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #27 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:49pm
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Torpedo...

I have to tell you that considering your own little temper tantrum here your advice is not really of great value to me.  Some here have credibility and some do not.  It's a fact of life.

Yes, if I am asked a question that is none of their business I will lie and I feel extremely comfortable that I will not fail.  Perhaps the reason that annoys you like a stick up your butt is because you know the CM's work and they can fool you?  You cannot do your job effectively while knowing others are being educated on practices such as yours.  Emotional intimidation, insults, out and out slams, temper tantrums... you aren't making your profession appear to have a whole heck of a lot of integrity.  Too bad because I am still convinced some in your profession do have integrity.

You make me wonder if the only way you can get a "dishonest" value from your polygraphs is using the same techniques you have with me on this board.

I fully admit to losing my temper on this board.  No doubt about it.  It doesn't matter what the reasons are, I did.  Is that a horrible thing?  Certainly not.  I was clearly not expressing myself well and after repeating the same information over and over again I lost my cool.  Would I have reacted that way last week or next week?  Probably not.  But you know what?  It still doesn't matter.

You are merely teaching me some things to expect during a polygraph and I am armed with a great deal of knowledge.  Add a little common sense as well as an understanding that not every polygrapher is going to be like you and I feel more than comfortable that I am going to do well.

Bottem line, if it is a lie to keep private info private, so be it.  I can live with that because I see no moral problem there.

I still feel that your problem is that you know your silly little test is easy to pass.  That means that your job is totally without value, doesn't it?

Have a great day Torpedo!
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #28 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:00pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 9:47pm:
Michelle,

Sounds like you have problems that run far deeper then the medical side.

Go ahead and utilize those countermeasures that folks like Septic recommend.


That's about enough of the ad hominem crap, "Batman".  I could easily do the same thing to you, but I prefer to address the content (what there is) of your posts.

If you can't muster anything more witty than "Septic" as an argument, you've already lost.  And as Michelle has already testified, your attitude does far more harm to your cause than I ever could.

Quote:
However, I found his statements very interesting, "If you really want this job, I see nothing ethically wrong with practicing and employing countermeasures; they can be highly effective.  There are no guarantees, though."

No guarantees.  Well if countermeasures are so damn effective, and if polygraph examiners can not detect them with any degree of certainty, then why are there no guarantees?


Paraphrased:  "if nothing in life is certain, then countermeasures must be crap!".  I suppose we can credit your gift of logic for the fact that you are a polygrapher in the first place.

On second thought, you go right ahead and use that "septic" moniker, moron.  It's probably about the best you can do, and we wouldn't want to stifle your abilities.

Quote:
Download the "Lie...” read it through, and then step into the world of folks like George and Steinjc.  You'll most likely fail or get caught using the CM's.   Then you'll be disqualified for sure.  Then you can come back to this site and complain about how unfair the system is and how your life has been ruined.


Note -- as Batman so ably noted, there's no evidence countermeasures can be detected more reliably than random chance.  Perhaps he'd like to use this as an opportunity to provide that evidence, though...

Quote:
I initially advised you to simply go in and lay down the truth.  You have made it very clear you had, and have no intention of doing that.


No, Batman.  She's made it very clear that she intends to answer all relevant questions truthfully (unless, of course, you think it's relevant to ask for any and all private information, regardless of whether it has any bearing on the job at hand, or is part of the employment criteria -- is that what you believe?).

Quote:
Well you got it baby.  Press on.  Can't wait to read your follow-on posts, you know, the cry of woe is me.

Batman


Funny how few of those we get, despite Batman's rant.

Skeptic
  
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Re: How do I deal with this?
Reply #29 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:09pm
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Michelle wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:49pm:
I still feel that your problem is that you know your silly little test is easy to pass.  That means that your job is totally without value, doesn't it?

Have a great day Torpedo!


It's truly remarkable the messages we get from our ernstwhile polygraph representatives.  On the one hand, they claim countermeasures don't work and you'll likely get caught using them.  On the other, they claim providing that info helps terrorists and criminals get away with their crimes.  They even went so far as to call George a traitor.

These guys really are "exhibit A" for the anti-polygraph side.

Skeptic
  
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