Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants (Read 15510 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Feb 16th, 2003 at 10:15pm
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U.S. News & World Report has just published (in its 24 Feb. edition) an article by Chitra Ragavan titled "Tracing terror's roots: How the first World Trade Center plot sowed the seeds for 9/11" that describes how the FBI severed its relationship with Emad Salem, a confidential informant whose information could have prevented the 26 February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan that killed six and injured thousands. The FBI's decision to terminate Salem seems to have been based in large part on his having had "inconclusive" outcomes in a several polygraph "tests." Ragavan reports:

Quote:
That same year [1991], evidence of a wider network of young Islamic men began turning up. An FBI agent hooked investigators Napoli and Anticev up with Emad Salem, an Egyptian informant. Posing as a bomb maker, Salem ingratiated himself with el-Gabrowny during Nosair's trial, visited Nosair in jail, and penetrated Sheikh Abdel-Rahman's inner circle. In June 1992, an associate of el-Gabrowny sought Salem's help in a plot to bomb 12 New York targets and kill the judge in the Nosair trial. His new associates wanted Salem to make pipe bombs for them, placing the FBI in a legally precarious position. Salem also refused to wear a secret recording device because he did not want to testify in court. Tensions flared. In July 1991, after several polygraph exams of Salem proved inconclusive, the task force and Salem parted company. Asked if he regrets that decision, Anticev says, "Absolutely. No question about it, I would be fooling myself if I said no."


The FBI recently lost another confidential informant who refused to be polygraphed and who has made a public statement on this matter under the pseudonym "Informed Citizen":

http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-016.shtml

It appears that the FBI learned nothing from its misplaced reliance on polygraphy in the case of Emad Salem.


  

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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #1 - Feb 16th, 2003 at 10:49pm
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Say what you will about the polygraph, it has done one thing that makes it worthwhile.  It has kept George and his little group of cry babies out of our government law enforcement and intelligence services.
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #2 - Feb 16th, 2003 at 11:21pm
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Fed up Fed,


Is that really the best you can do?  George's post preceeding yours was thoughtful and articulate.

George's post:

Quote:
U.S. News & World Report has just published (in its 24 Feb. edition) an article by Chitra Ragavan titled "Tracing terror's roots: How the first World Trade Center plot sowed the seeds for 9/11" that describes how the FBI severed its relationship with Emad Salem, a confidential informant whose information could have prevented the 26 February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan that killed six and injured thousands. The FBI's decision to terminate Salem seems to have been based in large part on his having had "inconclusive" outcomes in a several polygraph "tests." Ragavan reports:


Quote:That same year [1991], evidence of a wider network of young Islamic men began turning up. An FBI agent hooked investigators Napoli and Anticev up with Emad Salem, an Egyptian informant. Posing as a bomb maker, Salem ingratiated himself with el-Gabrowny during Nosair's trial, visited Nosair in jail, and penetrated Sheikh Abdel-Rahman's inner circle. In June 1992, an associate of el-Gabrowny sought Salem's help in a plot to bomb 12 New York targets and kill the judge in the Nosair trial. His new associates wanted Salem to make pipe bombs for them, placing the FBI in a legally precarious position. Salem also refused to wear a secret recording device because he did not want to testify in court. Tensions flared. In July 1991, after several polygraph exams of Salem proved inconclusive, the task force and Salem parted company. Asked if he regrets that decision, Anticev says, "Absolutely. No question about it, I would be fooling myself if I said no."


The FBI recently lost another confidential informant who refused to be polygraphed and who has made a public statement on this matter under the pseudonym "Informed Citizen":

http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-016.shtml






It was yours that rang of nothing but the futile chirp of a cry baby...

Your post:

Quote:
...Say what you will about the polygraph, it has done one thing that makes it worthwhile.  It has kept George and his little group of cry babies out of our government law enforcement and intelligence services...


Is there any question why you and your ilk have no credibility?  Do you further have no degree of self respect--most assuredly not apparent with such a pathetic post?
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2003 at 11:56pm
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Say what you will about the polygraph, it has done one thing that makes it worthwhile.  It has kept George and his little group of cry babies out of our government law enforcement and intelligence services.

Dear Fed-up,

You are incorrect.  I have been in Federal law enforcement for over ten years.  My agency supervisors laughed about the FBI's finding about my "deceptive" polygraph.  My Senior Executive Service supervisor's direct quote was, "They are very arrogant and their lost is our gain."  I am still in law enforcement.  Low and  behold, on further review of my appeal, the FBI found me "not deceptive" after my third polygraph.  I am the same person I was before the first polygraph.  What a waste of time and money! No common sense to their approach at all.

I do not call those who have opinions different from myself cry-babies.  I call them true Americans.  The moment I attempt to silence anyone who disagrees with me, I lead my country directly into the path that the enemies of America want.  I take away the most important freedom of all, freedom of speech.

Regards.
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #4 - Feb 17th, 2003 at 7:09am
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Quote:
Say what you will about the polygraph, it has done one thing that makes it worthwhile.  It has kept George and his little group of cry babies out of our government law enforcement and intelligence services.


Fed-Up,

Are you honestly saying you'd rather keep some "crybabies" out of law enforcement/intelligence services than potentially save thousands of American lives?

I hope you'll understand if I (and our gentle readers) conclude your priorities are a tad screwed up, sir.  Should we believe it's better to have the likes of you defending us?

Skeptic
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2003 at 4:58pm
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Say what you will about the polygraph, it has done one thing that makes it worthwhile.  It has kept George and his little group of cry babies out of our government law enforcement and intelligence services.

Time for me to chime in here, I suppose.  If I read George's post correctly, the point was not that the bureau was loosing qualified applicants, rather qualified and valuable informants.  
The question here is quite real and important.  Should law enforcement use the polygraph as a screening tool on informants?  Without a question, it has proven to be poorly used in such instances.  Further, it has caused a lot of innocent people to die as a result of faith in it.  
To say that the loss of innocent lives is an acceptable loss is utter nonsense.  What an outrage!
Fed-up Fed, I believe your anger at what this site accomplishes will become more incited when it leads more of the public population, who doesn't have a career or job on the line. finding the reslove to put this witch hunt to an deserved end.
As it stands now, there are perhaps 100 applicants to every federal law enforcement job opening.  Enough people are not being rejected and harmed to demand the removal of polygraph pre-screening at this time. However, when we find that not only the first WTC bombing, but the OK City bombing, as well as 9/11 could have been prevented if law enforcement actually used real investigative methods as opposed to some futile belief in the polygraph results, the public at large will rise up and demand that no more lives be sacrificed for belief in this lunacy.
It becomes a totally different issue to the public when brutally violent murders through acts of terrorism are allowed to occur because of misplaced belief in the polygraph.
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #6 - Feb 17th, 2003 at 10:53pm
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Seeker,

You state, "However, when we find that not only the first WTC bombing, but the OK City bombing, as well as 9/11 could have been prevented if law enforcement actually used real investigative methods as opposed to some futile belief in the polygraph results, the public at large will rise up and demand that no more lives be sacrificed for belief in this lunacy.
It becomes a totally different issue to the public when brutally violent murders through acts of terrorism are allowed to occur because of misplaced belief in the polygraph."

I most certainly have missed something!  Exactly who was polygraphed in relation to the terrorist attacks of 11 Sep 01 that if "real investigative methods" were employed instead, would have prevented these attacks?  You are laying some pretty heavy shit at the feet of individuals like myself!  I would appreciate it if you would be a bit more specific as to exactly what use of polygraph, in relation to terrorist attacks, you are referencing.  What polygraph examinations were administered, prior to the attacks that could have prevented these attacks?  You seem so positive in your accusations that I'm sure you can provide this information.   Please include any information regarding how the over reliance on polygraph led up to the first bombing of the World Trade Center, and the Oklahoma City bombing. 

George's post simply details one informant, who was unreliable at best.  There is no doubt in my mind he was veted in more ways than just the polygraph.  To pop up now, with 20/20 hindsight, and allude to this single informant being the key to the first WTC bombing is, once again, a very lame attempt to place blame where it does not belong.  I would expect a little better from you George.  I find it hard to believe that someone with your background, and alleged intelligence would try to make the connection you are by quoting this article.  You may want to say that you were simply quoting an article by another author, however you know full well what you are implying.  Does your hatred of everthing polygraph run that deep?

Batman
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #7 - Feb 18th, 2003 at 12:24am
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Batman wrote on Feb 17th, 2003 at 10:53pm:
George's post simply details one informant, who was unreliable at best.  There is no doubt in my mind he was veted in more ways than just the polygraph.

How unfortunate that the FBI or any other law enforcement agency should double check any informat, regardless of polygraph results but not give the same consideration to a law abiding applicant (an FBI application stops and there is no further "vetting" if the applicant "fails" their polygraph).
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #8 - Feb 18th, 2003 at 7:34pm
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Once again, a lame attempt to switch the topic back to how bad polygraph is in the pre-employment screening world.  I would still like to hear from Seeker, or anyone else, exactly how the over reliance on polygraph led to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, or the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City.

Seeker stated, "However, when we find that not only the first WTC bombing, but the OK City bombing, as well as 9/11 could have been prevented if law enforcement actually used real investigative methods as opposed to some futile belief in the polygraph results, the public at large will rise up and demand that no more lives be sacrificed for belief in this lunacy.
It becomes a totally different issue to the public when brutally violent murders through acts of terrorism are allowed to occur because of misplaced belief in the polygraph."

Please provide information to support such a statement!

Batman
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #9 - Feb 18th, 2003 at 8:02pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 18th, 2003 at 7:34pm:
Once again, a lame attempt to switch the topic back to how bad polygraph is in the pre-employment screening world

There was no attempt to switch the main topic.  The subject of vetting polygraph examinees (informants in this case) with other sources other than the polygraph exam itself was presented in the context of this thread's discussion.  

The FBI has a policy of not "vetting" polygraph results in their hiring practices.  A reasonable person could infer that they would use this same mindset in "vetting" informants.  The logic would follow that the informants are vetted similar to the applicants.  Belief in their "truthfulness" is only based on polygraph interpretation with no other factors considered.

Otherwise, the FBI policy would be in disagreement with itself.
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #10 - Feb 18th, 2003 at 10:39pm
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Mr. Chance,

You stated:

"The FBI has a policy of not "vetting" polygraph results in their hiring practices.  A reasonable person could infer that they would use this same mindset in "vetting" informants.  The logic would follow that the informants are vetted similar to the applicants.  Belief in their "truthfulness" is only based on polygraph interpretation with no other factors considered."

Do you really think that sources of information are treated in the same manner as applicants when it comes to verifying information provided?  You may be using logic, but it's a bit fuzzy.

Batman

  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #11 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 3:45pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 18th, 2003 at 10:39pm:
Do you really think that sources of information are treated in the same manner as applicants when it comes to verifying information provided?  You may be using logic, but it's a bit fuzzy.

I will accept anyone's opinion that my logic could be fuzzy.  I will accept fuzzy logic over no logic at all.

I did not intend to use it as a lame excuse to complain about pre-screening polygraph usage or divert attention away from the current thread.

The mindset in the FBI gives polygraph results a very heavy weight in decision making in general.   This mindset starts in the application process.  There is no reason not to believe that it is not given undue weight in other FBI uses.  The confidence in the results of such exams could reduce any reasonable skepticism and research into verifying information gained from informants.  This logic is not so fuzzy.
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #12 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:04pm
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Fair Chance,

Your logic is not only fuzzy, it's cloudy and it's wrong.  The utilization of polygraph as it pertains to sources of information is totally different than how it is used in the employment application procedure.  When a source of information is administered a polygraph to verify information it is because there is no other way to verify the information.  It is simply a tool applied to an overall situation.  The results are weighed with, and against other factors such as what past information the source provided, and how accurate was it when verified through means other than polygraph.

You make it sound like a source comes in, provides information, and the first thing he submits to is a polygraph, end of story.  That may be how it's done on Law & Order and NYPD Blue, but not in the real world.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.  They may both be fruit, but they are no where near the same.

I have to go, the Bat Mobile is low on gas (Been doing a lot of running around from thread to thread.  It's hell being popular.)

Batman
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #13 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:34pm
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Batman wrote on Feb 19th, 2003 at 10:04pm:
Your logic is not only fuzzy, it's cloudy and it's wrong

I am glad we are not in the weather forecasting business.

One of us would be starving.  
  
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Re: FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants
Reply #14 - Feb 19th, 2003 at 11:57pm
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Fat Chance,

Come on now, that sounds like one of those 'ad hominominominom' attacks you guys are always fond of talking about.  What do you think Septic, does this qualify or is it only polygraph examiners who make such attacks?

Hey Chance, any real thoughts about what I said as it pertains to your logic or lack there of relating to the utilization of polygraph on sources as compared to job applicants?  No?  How about any thoughts at all?  No?  Well, that explains a lot!

Batman (the mobile is gassed and running)
  
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FBI Polygraphing of Confidential Informants

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