Greetings to everyone here.  I stumbled onto this site and am very happy to find a site that tells the truth about polygraphs.

Now to my subject:  If you have seen the silly reality TV show Meet My Folks, you know that a polygraph test is a pivitol part of the show.  I think this is terrible in that it makes the polygraph seem like a intergral, legitimate part of any interrogation process; i. e. that it has credibility.  The tester is so smug, he looks like he believes he is God and can read anyone's mind and can hand down judgement in seconds with a simple thumbs-up or down.  Nobody ever questions the results or asks for any proof of credibility, they just accept that they are about to be ratted out!  Again, bringing the polygraph to prominence in pop culture without any disclaimers is a very poor idea.

I wish just one of these young buffoons would walk up to this guy and say, "Polygraphs are a crock, nobody can tell what I am really thinking, and I enter this test with a load of contempt."  If I were the father, I would stop the show right there and offer the kid a dowry!

Again, best wishes and God bless.     Pat.

Dear MeetMyFolks,

 Of course the polygrapher you are referring to acknowledged countermeasures are effective against polygraph testing "if properly employed". 

 Various "Black Op's" special forces units such as select Navy Seals, Delta Force, Rangers, Scouts, CIA field operatives, etc., as well as various other "special skilled" covert agencies teach polygraph countermeasures. This is due to the potential risk of being captured, tortured and polygraph tested by the enemy. That being said; when I was working with the FBI, I learned of “select” FBI undercover agents used to infiltrate certain specific criminal empires such as organized crime, drug cartels, gangs, etc., are also taught polygraph countermeasures. The mafia was at one time, and probably still is infamous for polygraph testing potential candidates to be future “made members” within a “family” and/or criminal organization. 

 I find it ironic that the FBI teaches polygraph countermeasures to select bureau undercover special agents, only to turn around later and polygraph the very undercover agent… Perhaps the bureau is teaching and testing their own special agents against bureau polygraphers while knowing the subject is using c/m’s, then try and determine, establish and implement countermeasure countermeasures… 

 However, the television show you are referring to is a joke. The polygrapher sits behind the subject connected to the polygraph machine, and portrays himself as being able to distinguish truth from deception simply by gazing upon his charts... The suggestion alone presented by the polygrapher is utterly illogical, unreasonable, and misleading. 

I feel relatively certain, (strictly my opinion) that most pro-polygraphers who visit this site are honestly embarrassed by such a pathetic mockery of the very same profession they too represent; and then attempt to defend on this very website.

Respectfully,
x

Batman,

 That’s a good question. I sincerely wish that I could provide you with a “reliable source” of information or document that would satisfy your curiosity. I do not possess such a document to support my statement. I am however prior military, and spent most of my entire military career in a (SFGC) Special Forces Group Command. My military career entailed among other things; rapid aerial insertions, extractions, delivery and recovery of various Special Forces ground troops and some “trick” equipment of joint detachments within the military to include the seals, rangers, scouts, marine snipers, etc. With respect to my bureau job/experience, very similar (nearly exactly) to what I did in the military. 

 I definitely did not intend to ms-represent myself as a polygraph countermeasure guru. I assure you I most certainly am not. In fact, I actually know very little, and possess little to no actual knowledge or experience regarding polygraph testing to include polygraph countermeasures. I do however, know that polygraph countermeasure training within certain “military operations” is nothing new; and it has been around for a long time. 

 As for me providing you with reliable proof of such training, I doubt anyone could produce such a document. The same would apply to most any special military training within any branch of “special forces” such as kidnapping, torture, interrogation, assassination, disguise, false document fabrication techniques, etc., etc. All of which are an integral part of Special Forces training. However, I could not provide you with reliable proof of how any branch of the Special Forces train for any of the methods previously mentioned, but they do. It’s not like you or I can just go reference the Navy Seals or CIA clandestine field agent (SOG) CIA Special Operations Group “SOP” (Standard Operating Procedures Manual) and look-up and review their local training policy and procedures on polygraph countermeasure training, or for that matter, any other classified training that may exist. I seriously doubt that the Seal Team Group Commander, or any other group commander would disclose any method of tactical training to you or anyone else. After all, that’s what makes the Special Forces covert and clandestine, what they do is not known to the public, and in most cases not even to the Senate oversight committee. 

 Polygraph countermeasure techniques are nothing new, and they have been taught at various levels within the military and government where the threat of capture, torture and interrogation via a polygraph are plausible.  

 With respect to my personal experience with the bureau, the same thing applies. I was never “privy” to any polygraph countermeasure training. It was never openly admitted or discussed within the bureau. One could find him/herself in serious trouble if caught or suspected trying to beat a polygraph. I was subjected to polygraph testing every 5 years for my 5-year “PR” periodic review for my TS. Most all agents do know that polygraph c/m training does exist. I actually heard that it was not the bureau that taught c/m training. It was “rumored” from reliable sources within the bureau that an outside agency/entity (military perhaps?) provided the polygraph countermeasure training. This is completely open for individual speculation and criticism. That’s not for me to decide. That being said; the Russians have been known to provide polygraph countermeasure training to former spies both (US and Russian) during the cold war. That’s not to say that employing polygraph countermeasures is a sure way to beat a polygraph. However, I would have to agree that if properly executed polygraph countermeasures were employed, it would definitely reduce the risk of a false positive or DI result. Especially if the subject being tested is not already under a shroud of suspicion by the polygrapher. Employing polygraph countermeasures are no guarantee of passing, but it does increase ones chances of producing a NDI result. There will always be “the great debate” with regard to a polygrapher being able to detect countermeasures (if properly employed) during a polygraph test. 

 For the record, I’m opposed to polygraph testing as I find it flawed and riddled with trickery and deceit. "Strictly in my opinion", I will not rely on any method used to test peoples truthfulness, honesty, integrity and character based on the same merits of polygraph testing. 

 Thank you for your question. As always, I will welcome your thoughts, comments, concerns, criticism, feedback and expert polygraph commentary.

 Please excuse my lengthy response. 


Respectfully,
x

False +,

I'm glad that you were intrigued by my post. However, the information I made reference to is nothing new to those familiar with, or personally experienced within the realm of Special Forces, Clandestine Operations, and "Conflicts other than War"...  

For the record, the reference I made with respect to Special Operation Groups being trained for such things as; kidnapping, "torture", interrogation, and assassination is a true statement. The key word here is "trained". I did not say that US Military Special Forces actually carryout all of the skills for which they have been trained.

The same training concept applies for SOCOM, SOG polygraph countermeasure training. Only small, select, elite Special Operation Groups are trained in polygraph countermeasures in the event of capture, torture, etc. 

In most cases, SOGS and high-altitude spy plane drivers (pilots) will serve an entire military career and never be required to employee polygraph countermeasures. Hopefully, they will not be shot down, captured and tortured, followed by aggressive polygraph testing... but in the event they are, the countermeasure training they have received, (if in fact they received c/m training) could be the difference between life and death. You decide...

 Additional note; I was assigned to a U2 spy plane program in the capacity of a DoD State Dept civilian at Patrick AFB, FL several years ago. I spent many long hours debriefing U2 drivers following real-world intelligence gathering operations. Without hesitation, I will only say that it is highly probable and possible, that high-altitude spy plane pilots have received similar countermeasure training in the event they are shot down. One must keep in mind, unlike SOGS, spy planes are most often flying in restricted air space and often in areas/regions when they are not suppose to be there. In the event they are shot down, it’s not like help will be there anytime soon… hence, the plausibility of various forms of countermeasure training. This could also include, but not be limited too; countermeasure training in evasive maneuvers, escape and evading re-capture, electronic communication countermeasures, radar imagery countermeasures, and possibly polygraph countermeasures… There is a very long list of different types and varying degrees of countermeasure training within the different branches of military Special Forces.  

Final note: the military probably has more methods of various countermeasure training than any other organization. You just simply don’t hear about it. Thats why there called "Black Budget Programs". If it was open information, the terrorist groups and “unfriendly nations” would also know… and we don’t want that... 

Respectfully,
x

False +,

The U.S. Navy EP-3 involved in the incident you're thinking of wasn't shot down; it was disabled in a mid-air collision with a Chinese J-8 fighter aircraft, which was destroyed (and its pilot killed). The U.S. plane made an unauthorized emergency landing on a Chinese military airbase. Contemporaneous press accounts said nothing of either torture or polygraphs, as I recall.

The U.S. Navy crew, who had a signals intelligence (SIGINT) mission, were no doubt subject to polygraph screening themselves, and not likely to have been trained by the U.S. Government in polygraph countermeasures.

x X x,

I remember when Powers' chopper crashed in LA. I thought back to earlier times ... after the Soviets returned him he went though a lot of hell. Many questioned why he hadn't utilized the KCN pills he had been issued.

There was reason to believe that had that black eye not occured, Nixon would have won in '60.  Jack K. really beat him up over that administration "failure."

-Marty

Batman,

<You wrote:>
“You're so full of shit I can smell you through the internet lines.” 

I’m truly sorry that you feel this way. 

What have I ever done (or said) to you that would warrant such a personal attack on my character? Is this because I referenced the U2 incident in 1962? I simply clarified the fact that the U2 incident was in Russia dating 1962, not in China. How can this possibly provoke such a response.? 

<Again you write:>
“I suppose you were also involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion, and floated up the Mekong with Navy Seals too.”

With respect to your innuendo regarding me being involved with “the Bay of Pigs”, and floating up the “Mekong with Navy Seals” I would like to respond by saying this: 

1)      I was born in 1961, so I think I was a little too young to be “involved” with the Bay of Pigs.
2)      And as for me floating up the Mekong with the Navy Seals, I’m afraid not. 
3)      However, I have “flew” with the US Navy Seals on “many” occasions; to include training missions, and real world events. Not only have I had the “privilege” of flying with seals, I have run parallel ground exercises and lived among them. I have “been” as close to the seals as allowed, without actually being a seal. 
4)      I have also worked with the CIA, FBI, and currently for the DoD. 

So tell me, what is it about that bothers you so severely? 

Now perhaps I don’t have the luxury of a nice “cushy” polygraph suite or corporate environment in which I perform my daily career skills. In fact, I don’t even have an office. I live and operate in a highly secure tactical environment, and in most cases in military quarters. I don’t have a 9 to 5 job. 

You have the luxury of a 9 to 5 job, operate in a safe environment, OSHA regulated, ISO 9002 compliant, Wage & Labor compliant, that kind of thing I’m sure. Well, I don’t share the same career work place ethics and conveniences. Last week, the shooting that killed one contractor from CA and wounded the other between Kuwait City and Camp Doha Kuwait was within “minutes” of being my immediate co-workers. My career often requires me to place myself and my coworkers in harms way; so people like you can enjoy the very freedom that I help provide. I have served in conflicts both past and present, military and as a civilian. 

Batman, I respect your choice of career fields; I simply don’t have any faith in polygraph testing… does that warrant such a personal attack? I suggest you consider some professional anger management counseling. 

I sincerely hope that you are better at interpreting polygraph charts than you are at assessing and interpreting my career field merely based on a senseless trivial post.

Cheer up Batman, it can’t possibly be that bad. 

PS, insert a "smily" here...

Triple_x

Triple X,

You continue to discredit yourself more and more with each post.  I would give it up while you still can...

(It feels really strange to be defending the likes of Batman  )