Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4]  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Campus Poster Initiative (Read 60203 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box yankeedog
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 68
Joined: Jul 25th, 2002
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #45 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:32am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Although many comments on this site are interesting, they aren't all that informative. 

Question for George and Drew:  Do either of you guys really understand the purpose of a pre-employment screening polygraph examination?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Drew Richardson
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 427
Joined: Sep 7th, 2001
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #46 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:51am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Yankeedog,

Admittedly I feel more comfortable characterizing the end result of pre-employment screening than I do the intent of its users.  That result would include amongst other things: chaos in the application process, injustice for many individuals, and a denial of qualified personnel resources for utilizing agencies and governments.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box yankeedog
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 68
Joined: Jul 25th, 2002
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #47 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:58am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ok, Drew doesn't know.  How 'bout you George?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #48 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 2:03am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Drew Richardson, I am not given to suggesting or implying anything. I pretty much say what I'm thinking. Your failure to understand is your deficiency not mine.

Answer the questions:  If one of your agents turned in the same surveillance photo twice and claimed they were taken years apart, what would you say? How would you react?

Or would it be easier you for you to try to shift focus away from what I said by trying to spuriously interpret what I meant when my words were very clear in the first place.  

My point was made on my first post. George Mashke posted a photograph from a 2002 post in a 2006 post indicating that it was taken on a more recent trip to UCLA. The photo speaks for itself. Look at it. George is the person who made both posts over 3 years apart. It can't be explained away, either he did it or he didn't. Reading his posts make it obvious he did.

I'm just the guy pointing out, The Lie Behind The Lie Behind The Lie Detector

You polygraph detractors always accuse examiners of lying,but constantly either refuse to acknowledge your own lies or attempt to justify them.

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6155
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #49 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 3:11am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Dec 20th, 2007 at 10:34pm:
find it interesting that the photo that you posted on 12/13/2002 is exactlyy the same photo you posted on 2/27/2007 referencing a "RECENT" trip to UCLA.

The trees are the same height, The foliage is the same, hmm even the little tear-off pieces are in exactly the same position.

This is either an astonishing coincidence or possibly an example of The Lie Behind The Lie Behind The Lie Detector.

Sancho Panza


The picture in both posts is the same; I took it on the UCLA campus in February 2006. At the end of the first post in this thread, you'll find the annotation: « Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2006, 12:26pm by George W. Maschke ». I edited that first post so as to provide up front an illustration of how AntiPolygraph.org posters might be placed on college campuses.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #50 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 7:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Well I guess the untruth lies in posting a 2006 photo back in to a 2002 forum post and the private message that you sent to me on December 12, 2007 at 9:34 am that contained:
"You can fix the typo by clicking on the "Modify" button in your post. (Posts may be modified up to 72 hours after they are made.)"
wasn't exactly true then.
If our eagle-eyed FORMER agent didn't spot it when he rallied to your defense then someone might have gone back and typed that in AFTER our discussion began.

Sancho Panza
« Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2007 at 8:48am by SanchoPanza »  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6155
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #51 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 11:25am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Dec 21st, 2007 at 7:10am:
Well I guess the untruth lies in posting a 2006 photo back in to a 2002 forum post and the private message that you sent to me on December 12, 2007 at 9:34 am that contained:
"You can fix the typo by clicking on the "Modify" button in your post. (Posts may be modified up to 72 hours after they are made.)"
wasn't exactly true then.


The time limit for editing posts does not apply to forum moderators and in any event was implemented with regard to regular accounts only this year.

Quote:
If our eagle-eyed FORMER agent didn't spot it when he rallied to your defense then someone might have gone back and typed that in AFTER our discussion began.

Sancho Panza


Google's cache of the post (retrieved by Google on 18 December 2007) provides independent confirmation that someone didn't.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #52 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 12:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Drew Richardson wrote on Dec 21st, 2007 at 1:51am:
Yankeedog,

Admittedly I feel more comfortable characterizing the end result of pre-employment screening than I do the intent of its users.  That result would include amongst other things: chaos in the application process, injustice for many individuals, and a denial of qualified personnel resources for utilizing agencies and governments.



Drew, interesting choice of words that you would characterize the polygraph application process as "chaos"---a first for these eyes, and I am being sincere.
What begs the question is that many of us are keenly aware that you are heavily invested in FMRI as a forensic tool, along with your business partner(s). It should come as no suprise that your opinions of polygraph remain activily negative (your previous testimony(s) PLUS your new business venture), especially since your company is seeking to replace the current modalities of lie and memory detection, respectively. I have high regard for that, as I feel that any tool that does a better job at "catching bad guys" is welcome. I would very much like to know how things are going on the forefront of that technology. A second question would be; when do you expect your research and others to become activated and the fmri to be readily used as a screening device, if at all? Thanks.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #53 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 4:21pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Well I guess the untruth lies in posting a 2006 photo back in to a 2002 forum post.

Please forgive me for questioning your credibility but surely you can understand why someone might doubt the truthfulness of someone who co-wrote a book that repeatedly tells the reader it is OK to lie and deliberately conceal information.

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Drew Richardson
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 427
Joined: Sep 7th, 2001
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #54 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 4:50pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Eric,

Addressing a few of your comments in no particular order:

1.      My reference to chaos was in connection to the application process in general and not with polygraph screening in particular.  I do not contest nor doubt your surprise at the notion.  It is perfectly conceivable to me that the chaos introduced by polygraphy would be felt by the end-consumer seeking to hire employees and human resources personnel seeking to facilitate this process and not by oblivious polygraphers who are more or less finished with the process with the provision of any error they may have introduced into the process.  This is particularly true in large agencies where these groups of people are likely administratively (if not geographically) widely separated.

2.      Although I performed nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) experiments in the world of analytical chemistry before there was such a thing as functional magnetic resonance imagining (fMRI), I have had no involvement in the latter in its various purported applications in the world of psychophysiology.

3.      The dependent measure which you have confused for fMRI and which I am involved with is event related potential (ERP) measurement in general and more specifically the P300 response as it relates to the detection of concealed information.  I am not involved in any sort of lie detection work.  I do not see any reason to believe that any dependent measure or combination of dependent measurements will ever lead to reliable lie detection.

4.      My various criticisms of lie detection began at least a decade prior to my formal and financial relationship to P300 work.  I have and continue to be a proponent of concealed information testing whether it be using the channels of the standard polygraph and a GKT format or other measures (e.g., P300, fMRI or other)  with other more sophisticated concealed information testing formats. 

5.      The application of pre-employment polygraph screening is little more than a poorly constructed fishing expedition.  No technology (i.e., combination of dependent measures) that I am ever associated with will be offered as an alternative to present polygraph channels for such purposes.  The application is fatally flawed--it will not work with anyone’s old or new technology.  That which I am presently associated with and which you allude to will be used for two purposes (it does have other potential applications in the medical and advertising worlds) in the context that we are speaking: (1) concealed information testing regarding specifically known-to-have-occurred events (e.g., crimes) and (2) determination of group associations (e.g., Does this person have specific knowledge of training, methods, organizational hierarchy that would indicate an association with Al Qaeda,  etc?).

6.      I’m with you on “catching bad guys.”  I presume you are with me on not wanting to catch good guys and gals in the virtual net designed for the aforementioned bad guys.  I will be literally and figuratively away for much of the time between now and the new year (so not available for much back and forth discussion) but will be happy to resume at that point.  Regards and happy holidays...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #55 - Dec 21st, 2007 at 5:42pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Drew Richardson wrote on Dec 21st, 2007 at 4:50pm:
Eric,

Addressing a few of your comments in no particular order:

1.      My reference to chaos was in connection to the application process in general and not with polygraph screening in particular.  I do not contest nor doubt your surprise at the notion.  It is perfectly conceivable to me that the chaos introduced by polygraphy would be felt by the end-consumer seeking to hire employees and human resources personnel seeking to facilitate this process and not by oblivious polygraphers who are more or less finished with the process with the provision of any error they may have introduced into the process.  This is particularly true in large agencies where these groups of people are likely administratively (if not geographically) widely separated.

2.      Although I performed nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) experiments in the world of analytical chemistry before there was such a thing as functional magnetic resonance imagining (fMRI), I have had no involvement in the latter in its various purported applications in the world of psychophysiology.

3.      The dependent measure which you have confused for fMRI and which I am involved with is event related potential (ERP) measurement in general and more specifically the P300 response as it relates to the detection of concealed information.  I am not involved in any sort of lie detection work.  I do not see any reason to believe that any dependent measure or combination of dependent measurements will ever lead to reliable lie detection.

4.      My various criticisms of lie detection began at least a decade prior to my formal and financial relationship to P300 work.  I have and continue to be a proponent of concealed information testing whether it be using the channels of the standard polygraph and a GKT format or other measures (e.g., P300, fMRI or other)  with other more sophisticated concealed information testing formats.  

5.      The application of pre-employment polygraph screening is little more than a poorly constructed fishing expedition.  No technology (i.e., combination of dependent measures) that I am ever associated with will be offered as an alternative to present polygraph channels for such purposes.  The application is fatally flawed--it will not work with anyone’s old or new technology.  That which I am presently associated with and which you allude to will be used for two purposes (it does have other potential applications in the medical and advertising worlds) in the context that we are speaking: (1) concealed information testing regarding specifically known-to-have-occurred events (e.g., crimes) and (2) determination of group associations (e.g., Does this person have specific knowledge of training, methods, organizational hierarchy that would indicate an association with Al Qaeda,  etc?).

6.      I’m with you on “catching bad guys.”  I presume you are with me on not wanting to catch good guys and gals in the virtual net designed for the aforementioned bad guys.  I will be literally and figuratively away for much of the time between now and the new year (so not available for much back and forth discussion) but will be happy to resume at that point.  Regards and happy holidays...


Fascinating stuff.
I will be considerate of your holiday time. I am aware of the differences between p300 and fmri, I made an oversight by confusing the two. I do appreciate the fact that you recognize that the GKT polygraph test is a very accurate means to knowledge detection (so to speak.) I loathe the thoughts of innocent people being falsly accused also, and to paint polygraph examiners as thoughtless, mindless predators as many in this realm often do is rediculous.

Yes, I want the bad guys caught.

I was not intentionally referring your past antipolygraph testimonies and your new career avenue in P300 Memory Detection as being chronologically overlapping. Apologies.

I do believe it is telling that in all the peripheral career choices, you pursued an up and coming concealed memory detector. Sounds like fun, and hard work pioneering such things.

Can you state here any anecdotal or empirical information regarding the ease of which to engage in countermeasures with the P300 equipment?

P.S. I no longer administer polygraph tests, so I really am objectively fascinated by P300 waveforms, and their potential. Smiley

Happy Holidays!
Eric
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #56 - Jan 1st, 2008 at 7:15pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr. Richardson,
Fascinating stuff.
I will be considerate of your holiday time. I am aware of the differences between p300 and fmri, I made an oversight by confusing the two. I do appreciate the fact that you recognize that the GKT polygraph test is a very accurate means to knowledge detection (so to speak.) I loathe the thoughts of innocent people being falsly accused also, and to paint polygraph examiners as thoughtless, mindless predators as many in this realm often do is rediculous.

Yes, I want the bad guys caught.

I was not intentionally referring your past antipolygraph testimonies and your new career avenue in P300 Memory Detection as being chronologically overlapping. Apologies.

I do believe it is telling that in all the peripheral career choices, you pursued an up and coming concealed memory detector. Sounds like fun, and hard work pioneering such things.

Can you state here any anecdotal or empirical information regarding the ease of which to engage in countermeasures with the P300 equipment?
P.S. I no longer administer polygraph tests, so I really am objectively fascinated by P300 waveforms, and their potential.

Happy Holidays!
Eric
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Campus Poster Initiative
Reply #57 - Feb 19th, 2008 at 3:33am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

OMG!  You're going to cause them to fail before they even take the test!

The less subjects know about the test, the better off they'll be.

It's best they come in with a fresh and empty mind.

Trust me, polygraphers are there TO HELP THEM!

Don't cause the subjects to prejudge the process.

They are in GOOD HANDS. 

The polygraphers are NOT there to TRICK anyone!

I don't know where you got that idea.

And I don't understand why ANYONE would find this post "sarcastic".
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Campus Poster Initiative

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X