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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #45 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 8:48am
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Batman,

You write in part:

Quote:

...

OK George, exactly where did the NAS report discuss "naive subject populations"? ?You quote the damn report then turn it around by using your own words, then you have the balls to caution others about misrepresenting the report? ?Who are you trying to kid here, other then the likes of those that hang on every BS word you write?


The NAS report refers to "naive subject populations" where it mentions "populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures" (emphasis added). The polygraph research literature relied upon by the NAS polygraph review panel involved subject populations that were assumed to be naive with regard to polygraph procedure and countermeasures. Note that in this context, "naive" has a special, restricted meaning. As defined by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, definition 2b, "naive" means, "not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation <made the test with ~ rats>..." I have been using the term "naive" precisely as it is used in the polygraph research literature.

In addition, the NAS report notes at pp. 3-27 to 3-28, "The scientific base for polygraph testing is far from what one would like for a test that carries considerable weight in national security decision making. Basic scientific knowledge of psychophysiology offers support for expecting polygraph testing to have some diagnostic value, at least among naive examinees. However, the science indicates that there is only limited correspondence between the physiological responses measured by the polygraph and psychological and the attendant brain states believed to be associated with deception-in particular, that responses typically taken as indicating deception can have other causes." (emphasis added)

Quote:
No one says that polygraph is perfect, nor 100% accurate, but what is? ?What technique, used in any field or profession is perfect or 100% accurate.


You are raising a straw man argument, Batman. (In case you're not familiar with the term, Webster's defines it as, "a weak or imaginary opposition [as an argument or adversary] set up only to be easily confuted.") Our criticism of CQT polygraphy, and in particular polygraph screening, has never been that it is less than 100% accurate, but rather that it has no scientific basis, has an inherent bias against the truthful, and yet is easily beaten by the deceptive through the use of simple countermeasures.

Quote:
Your analogy of, "there is no evidence that polygraph "testing" provides greater predictive value than, say, interrogating a subject without the use of a polygraph, or with a colandar-wired-to-a-photocopier that is represented to the subject as being a lie detector" is simply unbelievable.


Perhaps you would prefer the National Academy of Sciences' analogy comparing polygraphy with a shamanistic ritual? See the message thread "The Cult of Polygraph."

Quote:
Comments like this reveal your refusal to acknowledge, in any way, the many criminal investigations that have been resolved through the skillful use of the polygraph technique coupled with interviews and other investigative techniques.


Another straw man argument, Batman. I have never refused to acknowledge the utility of polygraphy for obtaining admissions/confessions from naive subjects (i.e., those who don't understand that polygraphy is a fraud). I have no per se objection to deceptive law enforcement interrogation tactics such as CQT polygraphy. However, because of the demonstrated potential for abuse, I believe it is imperative that all interrogations (whether or not the polygraph is used) be videotaped, or, at a minimum, audiotaped.

Quote:
You're so damn willing to throw the baby out with the bath water simply because you believe you were wronged when you took a polygraph examination. That's a pretty self centered, and arrogant view on life George. I'm surprised you're not totally against child birth since you got your ass slapped when you were born.


In your opinion, what is the baby and what is the bath water? If you truly believe that my opposition to polygraphy (and, in particular, to polygraph screening) is based on nothing more than my personal experience, you are mistaken, Batman. If polygraphy were based on sound science, and I had unfortunately fallen within a small but unavoidable margin of error, I could accept that. But such is not the case.
  

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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #46 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 9:57am
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Batman wrote on Nov 13th, 2002 at 8:14pm:

Polycop, Deputy D.,

You guys are spot on.  It works, and it works well,


About myself. My name is Morris Henry Riddle Jr. I was born Oct 4th 1932 and never been charged with a mistermeanor let alone a felony. Never taken the TEST nor will I.

My intent is not to offend anyone. Pissing contests serve no one. Here are some of my beliefs:

If I apply for employment at the FBI, CIA, Secert Service or the DOE, i would expect nothing less from my Government than a microscope up my ass. A complete and thorough back round check that would discover my grandfathers favorite drink. Such a search would reveal whether i ran moonshine in the 50s or smoked dupe in the 60s. After the facts are known during my interview if I make a denial that you guys know to be fact, than I don't deserve the job. If I admit to a youthful indiscretion than its up to the agency to decide if they want my services or not. No hard feelings and I'll shake your hand on the way out. On the other hand if I were to be hooked up to a box and called a liar after being truthful the polygrapher would probably end up on the floor.

As for the coppers using the polygraph as a tool to induce an admission from a crook, who gives a shit. However, with fingerprints, DNA and other forensic evidence do you really need the polygraph? Or is it just a last resort? 

Now if I'm wrong here please correct me but it seems to me that the polygraph depends on the respondents belief that the "box" will detect deception. This preception has been generated by a massive misinformation campaign sanction by our Government and the media.

The facts, as i understand them, is that " Science is unable to correlate physiology to a specfic emotion" meaning the results are equivocal.

My fingerprints found at the crime scene, my DNA found in the rape victim, the groves on a bullet that were produced by the barrel of my gun, this is unequivocal evidence.

Calling me deceptive merely by my physiological reactions to a so called relevant question is nothing less than an affront.



Just an old Dog expanding intellect.

Roll Eyes


  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #47 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 5:56pm
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Then why even come to this site. You obviously have NO CLUE of what you are talking about. Leave the conversation to the adults here.
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #48 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 6:41pm
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Quote:

Then why even come to this site. You obviously have NO CLUE of what you are talking about. Leave the conversation to the adults here. 


Have a nice day 8)
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #49 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 8:38pm
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George, 

You wear your arrogance like some kind of badge.  Thanks for the definition of "straw man" as it pertains to putting forth a point of view.  You do a great job of researching.   

You know damn well that when you use the term "naive" when speaking about those who willing undergo a polygraph and later confess, you are not speaking about people who are "not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation <made the test with ~ rats>..." as Mr. webster would define it.  You mean people who are stupid enough, in your opinion, to fall for what you believe to be a vodoo science.  If the individuals who authored the NAS report wanted to use the term "naive" to define individuals who undergo polygraph, then I'm sure they would have used it.  You subsitiute their words with yours to simply put forth, what you believe to be a better, stronger arguement.  That's a common tactic, everyone does it, to include you.   

You state, "If you truly believe that my opposition to polygraphy (and, in particular, to polygraph screening) is based on nothing more than my personal experience, you are mistaken, Batman."  Really?  So your opposition is something more pure?  You simply stumbled upon this unsound science, and took up the crusade?  Was your willingness to undergo a polygraph for employment within the Federal Government simply some undercover ploy on your part to ferret out more information?   

What would you have done George, had you "passed" your pre-employment polygraph?  Would you have scoffed at the agency in which you were seeking employment and told them that there was no way you would work within a system that relied so heavily upon such a faulty, unscientific technique?  Or would you have accepted employment and simply worked your way up the GS scale?  Exactly when was it you became such an anti-polygraph advocate?  Was it before you willingly stepped into the room to take your polygraph, or was it sometime after you were told you did not get the position you were seeking? 

If nothing else George, be honest about your true motive for taking up the cause.  You didn't get what you want so therefore something must be wrong with the system.  You are extremely self centered, and very transparent, that is why the decision makers within the Federal Government simply humor you, but do not take you seriously.  That is why when you lay down your silly challanges, no one replies.  Your motives are centered around one thing, you didn't get what you want.  Unfortunately people like you are a dime a dozen.  Always filing greviences, always blaming the system for your failures.  We see it every day.  You are not unique, therefore you are not considered a threat.  You, and your following are simply there to be toyed with.  I guess that does give you a little bit of value.

Batman

PS: Beech-Trees, you're a jerk.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #50 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 9:34pm
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Batman,

You write in summation:

Quote:
You, and your following are simply there to be toyed with.


Under the circumstances, I won't waste my time responding to your foregoing ad hominem arguments.
  

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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #51 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 11:06pm
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George,

I would expect nothing more.  Your reluctance to address the real issue of my post speaks volumes.

You like to offer challenges George, so how about a Batman challenge?   

Lets see how long it takes for you to answer the questions I put to you.  Here they are:

Was your willingness to undergo a polygraph for employment within the Federal Government simply some undercover ploy on your part to ferret out more information, or was it a sincere attempt to gain employment with a federal agency that used polygraph as a pre-employment screening tool?   

What would you have done had you "passed" your pre-employment polygraph?
     - Would you have accepted the position? or
     - Would you have turned the position down due to your beliefs about the use of polygraph?   

When was it you became an anti-polygraph advocate?

What one incident, or situation provided you with the inspiration to start this particular site, Anti-Polygraph.org?   

There you go a few simple questions.  If you decide not to meet the Batman challenge, I'm sure one of your followers will step forward for you.  How about it Beech Trees?  Do you want to offer any possible answers for George?

Day One of the Batman Challenge.

Batman
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #52 - Nov 14th, 2002 at 11:37pm
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Batman,

Quote:
Was your willingness to undergo a polygraph for employment within the Federal Government simply some undercover ploy on your part to ferret out more information, or was it a sincere attempt to gain employment with a federal agency that used polygraph as a pre-employment screening tool?


The latter.

Quote:
What would you have done had you "passed" your pre-employment polygraph?
 - Would you have accepted the position? or
 - Would you have turned the position down due to your beliefs about the use of polygraph?


The former.

Quote:
When was it you became an anti-polygraph advocate?


In 1999, some four years after my having been falsely accused of deception by an FBI polygrapher.

Quote:
What one incident, or situation provided you with the inspiration to start this particular site, Anti-Polygraph.org?


Although a number of factors were involved, the key one is the discovery that many other innocent persons have shared my experience, and that such abuse is ongoing.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2002 at 12:41am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #53 - Nov 15th, 2002 at 12:13am
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Batman

I will say at the beginning that, i believe, you made a feeble attempt to answer a couple of my questions. Not all. Breeze hasn't answered the questions of my last post.

I challange all of you propoly's to answer those questions about polygraphing elected and appointed officials. 

Plus:

1. Are you polygraphers?
2. For what agency do you work? Don't give me the crap "it's   
    secret"
3. If you do work in LE, do you think the amount of time you
    spend on this site, instead catching criminals and a SPY, is
   screwing away our tax money? 
4. Some of us have told you our line of work. Will you tell us
    yours?

I think all of you are swallowing JackAsspirin. If you would read the label, it probably says suppository and used accordingly would alter your temperment. You might not even feel the need to trash people.

DAY ONE OF THE TWOBLOCK CHALLANGE
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #54 - Nov 15th, 2002 at 12:16am
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Batman wrote on Nov 14th, 2002 at 8:38pm:

George, 

You wear your arrogance like some kind of badge.  Thanks for the definition of "straw man" as it pertains to putting forth a point of view.  You do a great job of researching.


They're so telling, these little tantrums by Herr Batrube. The arrogance of the citizen peons! "How DARE they question us!" he squeaks mightily. Herein lies the Big Picture Bruce Swain alludes to so often (yet never seems able to articulate): THEY have the power, they want to keep the power, we are taking that capricious power away from them for the good of all. That upsets them. That makes them think we want to wear their badge, when all we want is the abolishment of the pseudo-scientific fraud of polygraphy, a travesty of a sham that has never caught a spy, has enabled actual spies to permanently alter our intelligence gathering and distribution infrastructure, ruined the lives of countless citizens, sent and kept good men in jail, enabled sex offenders to roam free while castigating the innocent as predators... and the only thing they can come up with is a snippet of a sentence from the NAS report on which to hang their fortunes and future paychecks. 

Quote:
You know damn well that when you use the term "naive" when speaking about those who willing undergo a polygraph and later confess, you are not speaking about people who are "not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation <made the test with ~ rats>..." as Mr. webster would define it.  You mean people who are stupid enough, in your opinion, to fall for what you believe to be a vodoo science.


It's funny, the only people these days who are stupid enough to believe polygraphy is anything BUT voodoo science seem to be the polygraphers themselves. Looks like we have a new demographic from which we may draw for jury pools, eh b.m.?  

Quote:
You state, "If you truly believe that my opposition to polygraphy (and, in particular, to polygraph screening) is based on nothing more than my personal experience, you are mistaken, Batman."  Really?  So your opposition is something more pure?  You simply stumbled upon this unsound science, and took up the crusade?  Was your willingness to undergo a polygraph for employment within the Federal Government simply some undercover ploy on your part to ferret out more information?


Rosa Parks wanted to sit in the front of the bus. In refusing to be relegated to the back of the bus, she unwittingly triggered a civil rights movement that changed society. Who knows what was on her mind that day? I doubt she envisioned what would happen in the months and years to come-- she just knew she was tired of being treated like a second-class citizen, was fed up with it in fact, and wasn't going to take it anymore. Would you make the same crass insults to Ms. Parks as you do to George? For you to argue motivation for becoming involved rather than the substance of the debate is a specious tactic that reveals the hollow nature of the merits of your side of the argument.

Altruism is rarely if ever the sole motivating factor in progress. One group of people oppressing another group of people usually is. Do you know why the Holland Tunnel was built? Not for the free and open movement of peoples between states (altruistic), but because New Jersey farmers were sick and tired of the oppressive barge-tariffs their goods were getting slammed with by the NYC government (greed). 

Edward Archbald fought back with a vengeance when a drunk British soldier-- clanging his sword against his Boston barracks wall to see the pretty sparks fly-- decided Mr. Archbald would be a more enjoyable target. In simply fighting for his life Mr. Archbald initiated a series of events that resulted in the first armed conflict of the American Revolution. I guess that makes the inhabitants of Boston a bunch of whiners. If Batman were there, he'd be exhorting them to turn in their rifles and quit stirring up trouble. "Hey what's the matter, Mr. Archbald? Were you turned down for enlistment in the British Army? You're such a jerk Eddie!"

Hey asswipe, the concept that the founding of our country was a direct result of colonists refusing to pay a stamp duty on 'every piece of vellum, or parchment, or sheet or piece of paper, on which shall be ingrossed, written or printed, any declaration, plea, replication, rejoinder, demurrer, or other pleading, or any copy thereof, in any court of law within the British colonies and plantations in America' is arguably legitimate. How about that? Some greedy printers got fed up with being taxed to death, and the end result is the greatest republic in history. I guess those Founder dudes suck because they were more interested in keeping what they had earned than with obeying what was the Colonial version of your precious 'Federal Policy'.

Do you get where I'm going with this, you petty tyrant? In this current debate and battle, you are the moral equivilant of the bus driver trying to shove a poor black woman to the rear. You are the moral equivalent of the drunken British soldier playing Pin The Tail on The Citizen. You are the despot. You are the Good German soldier. It's ok, Batman, we know you're just following orders.

If the end result of someone vindicating their integrity by forming a website that gets the word out that the tool that was used to arbitrarily deny him his own personal pursuit of happiness is no tool at all but rather a clumsy weapon that has done infinitely more harm than good....... then I for one am fine with that.

In conclusion, each time you post your little jibes, your admissions that the only reason you're here is to prevaricate and insult, you clarify that much more to the disinterested third parties who read these discussions that the polygraph is a dangerous thing when entrusted to creeps like yourself. Have a super great day, b.m.

Dave

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking the responsibility for what they know. - Brooks Atkinson
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2002 at 3:38pm by beech trees »  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #55 - Nov 15th, 2002 at 8:15am
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Wow. Cheesy
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #56 - Nov 15th, 2002 at 11:52pm
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DAY TWO OF THE TWOBLOCK CHALLENGE
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #57 - Nov 16th, 2002 at 12:23am
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Geez TwoBlock, I just read the damn challenge, give me a break will ya?

I will answer your questions, but first, thanks George for answering mine.   

Now for the BlockHead Challenge:

Ques #1: "Am I a polygraph examiner?" - Yes

Ques #2: "For what agency do you work?" - I work for a Federal Agency, however which one has no bearing on my posts on this site, so I will not disclose it.

Ques #3: "If you do work in LE, do you think the amount of time you spend on this site, instead catching criminals and a SPY, is screwing away our tax money?" - The time I spend on this site is my off time, I do get some.  As for the tax payers money, I would venture to say that in your "profession" as a gold miner, you probably haven't paid any taxes in years so quit your bitchin'.

Ques #4: "Some of us have told you our line of work. Will you tell us yours?" - Read the answer to question #1 numb-nuts!

Now for the walking time bomb, Beech Trees.  Bud, you need to get some serious anger management counseling.  You sound like you're about ready to explode.  Not healthy dude!  By the way, given that you are such a staunch American patriot, in what branch did you serve, and for how long?  Rosa Parks?  The Holland Tunnel?  Eddie Archbald?  German soldier?  I think your starting to lose it.  Step back, take a deep breath, count to ten, then go take a flying leap.  You continue to be a jerk, but you are good at it!

George,

Again thanks for the answers, but I do find one thing a bit puzzling.  If you had passed your polygraph and accepted a position, with the FBI I believe, would there have ever been an Anti-polygraph.org, or would you have simply pressed on within the FBI?

Batman   
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #58 - Nov 16th, 2002 at 1:11am
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Batman

You missed the most important question.

Do you believe our elected officials, legislators, AG's, DA's and appointed officials i.e. judges, should have to pass the polygraph in order to assume or hold their office? What percentage do you think would pass?

Hey Bud, I doubt if your tax bill would amount to 5% of mine. See, some of us don't have to lie in dealing with our subjects or OUR government. When I make a mistake, it costs ME. NOT DEDUCTABLE. Government corruption also costs ME!! The deal making in our State Houses and Washington D. C. is corrupt. As a Federal LE, go polygraph them and put their asses in jail. Maybe that would cure your "red ass" and you wouldn't feel it necessary to call people names. 

SUPPOSITORY Bud SUPPOSITORY!!!!
  
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Re: A Polygraph Failure
Reply #59 - Nov 16th, 2002 at 5:39am
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Batman,

You write:

Quote:
Ques #1: "Am I a polygraph examiner?" - Yes


It seems, then, that you were dissembling when you previously let on that you are not a polygrapher... 

On 25 July 2002 you wrote to Beech Trees:

Quote:
Why do you assume I am a part of the pseudo-scientific fraud of polgraphy? ?Again, an erroneous assumption on your part.


And on 27 June 2002, you wrote to Skeptic:

Quote:
I have been in the law enforcement field since 1978, and in that time have had a tremendous amount of exposure to interviews, interrogations, and polygraph. ?Why assume that I am a polygraph examiner?


And on 17 May 2002, you wrote to Former Officer:

Quote:
I take almost as much offense at your assumption that I am a "tester" as you do to my assumption you have had "non-official" invovlement with illegal drugs. ?

I'm simply an individual who believes that web sites such as this do more harm than good because they promote an unhealthy approach toward life. ?Do you think I am a tester or pro-polygraph simply because I am willing to keep the door open to the potential usefulness of the polygraph as an aid to investigations. ?Maybe I have had some exposure to the technique wherein it was of tremendous assistance. ?Maybe I'm just willing to entertain both sides of the issue. ?Maybe I just like to get folks like you all fired up, kind of like kicking an ant hill. ?Or, God forbid, maybe I am a POLYGRAPH EXAMINER, run away, run away!!!!
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2002 at 5:55am by George W. Maschke »  

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