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Matt (Guest)
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MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Oct 25th, 2002 at 9:06pm
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Hi,  I took the time to read every one of your posted
statements about the people that had a bad experience on
the polygraph.  I too have had a polygraph test for the
Connecticut State Police.  I want to sort of clarify
what is going on with these people that were treated
poorly and failed the test.  Let me start by saying I
believe each and every story.  I also realize everyone
responds differently to stress and has a unique
physiological make-up that can contribute to false
readings.  However, a few things are critical to
understanding the polygraph process. 

First, I find it strange that people are getting
offended about questions about their sex life and having
sex with animals.  I personally know of applicants that
have been removed by cases of bestiality.  Bestiality
is a mental disorder that needs to be considered when
hiring.  These jobs come with top responsibility
(especially the CIA and FBI).  What do these applicants
think on their way to the polygraph test?  It ís not a
job flipping burgers.  Thereís a common theme of naivete
among most of the stories and I advice everyone to
understand the polygraph process before going to it. 
That ís advice for any test.

Secondly, if you read each story most applicants say the
polygraph tester returned to tell them they are being
deceptive on something to do with drugs.  Why is that? 
Simple, the tester is lying because they are trained to
rattle your cage as much as possible so they can drag
out as much as they can about your past (after all the
polygraph machine isnít a lie detector but a stress
detector, and some people donít stress when they lie). 
Statistically a tester is more likely to pull hidden
information out of candidates if they mention drug use
because thatís one of the biggest problems in society. 
I'm talking from experience here.  During my polygraph
my tester played the same game of trying to say I was
lying about drug use.  Because I knew before hand he was
going to try to get me rattled I didnít care or take it
personally.  I understand itís hard for people to not
take it personally but you have to realize your just
another face to the tester and he uses the same old
tricks to draw out hidden secrets that many applicant
hold back.  If you have nothing to hide and understand
this you can just let him play out his game and stay
more relaxed.   

Besides being honest, the secret to not failing a
polygraph is going into the test room with the
realization youíre there to be pushed to the edge. 
Thousands of applicantís brake down all the time and
confess, that is why pressure tactics are used.  I feel
the reason the authors of the posts on your web site
failed and are so angry is they are actually honest
people that just walked into the room expecting it to be
a simple test and had no clue it was going to be so
intense and invasive.  I do feel bad for everyone that
posted because they all seem like honest people just
wanting to serve society.  I think they just went to the
test expecting something different.  Itís also possible
these people take extreme offense to being accused of
something because they take such great pride in their
integrity, and I respect that.  However, maybe these
agencies donít want someone that gets offended so easily
when accused of something.  The polygraph isnít perfect,
but nothing really is.

I'm not trying to help anyone "beat" the test nor am I putting anyone down that failed.  I just think you need to go to the test knowing what to expect.  By honest and realize it's a game to make you crack even if you were honest.  Most of all try not to allow yourself to get offended.  If you know you're being honest that's all that matters.  Let the tester throw a fit.
  
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Fair Chance
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #1 - Oct 25th, 2002 at 9:27pm
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Matt,

I went into my test with all of the above known.

I left the test with with accusations unsubstantiated by fact.

The FBI places a "not within acceptable parameters" mark in my file.

They can share this information with any other federal law enforcment agency and I have no formal appeal rights.

They are suppose to be the elite Federal Law enforcement agency looking into Constitutional Rights issues.

I thought that we were innocent until proven (and not by just a lie detector) guilty.

What is wrong with this picture?
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #2 - Oct 25th, 2002 at 9:35pm
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I'm sorry you failed the test.  There is something wrong honest people failing however the FBI looks at the big picture and the reality is... "why take a chance on you when there's 100 other people waiting to take the spot you applied for."  I know it's not fair to you, but life isn't fair.  My advice and experience was offered to put some people at ease and maybe assist in helping someone that would have failed a chance to pass.
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #3 - Oct 25th, 2002 at 10:14pm
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Matt,

You write in part:

Quote:
I know it's not fair to you, but life isn't fair.


The National Academy of Sciences has recently completed a review of the scientific evidence on the polygraph, and found polygraph screening to be completely invalid. The unfairness associated with the pseudoscientific ritual that is polygraph screening is entirely unnecessary and should be abolished.

I suspect from your initial post that you are not familiar with the overly simplistic and downright fraudulent methodology whereby truth versus deception is actually inferred in a polygraph "test." You'll find a detailed explanation in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #4 - Oct 25th, 2002 at 10:43pm
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I'm not sure what your point was but to abolish the test seems like you're trying to fix one problem by creating another.  Just the fact the test exsist causes many dishonest people from even applying .  I think the "fear" of the test effectively removes many people and the tactics used by testers forces many others to admit to crimes.  You need to look at the big picture and not just focus on the honest people that get a false read.  I think the poly might be better utilized as a tool to assist in the background check.  The investigators conducting the check would be informed of what areas you failed on and look deeper into the area. Just my idea I'm sure there's plenty of other good ones.
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #5 - Oct 25th, 2002 at 10:58pm
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Geroge,

I just went ot the link you provided.  I think they sumed up what I was trying to get across....

If They Know Polygraphy Is Unreliable,
Why Do They Rely on It?

Government agencies rely on polygraphy primarily because naïve and gullible subjects, fearing that the polygraph will detect the slight-est hint of deception, will often make admissions that they might not otherwise make. Those innocent persons who are falsely accused in the process are considered “acceptable losses."
  
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Fair Chance
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #6 - Oct 26th, 2002 at 2:17am
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Matt,

I do not mind my job being an acceptable loss due to "acceptable loss theory".  The agency has the right to hire anyone they wish.

I DO MIND THEM DRAGGING MY INTEGRITY ACROSS THE MUD WITHOUT ANY FORM OF APPEAL ONLY BASED ON POLYGRAPH RESULTS.

This becomes a permanent record in Washington, D.C., with no easy way to appeal it.

My integrity is not "an acceptable friendly fire" loss.   No one here will convince me otherwise.
  
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G Scalabr
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #7 - Oct 26th, 2002 at 3:06am
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Matt,

Thanks for your post.

Quote:
I understand it’s hard for people to not take it personally but you have to realize your just another face to the tester and he uses the same old tricks to draw out hidden secrets that many applicant hold back.  If you have nothing to hide and understand this you can just let him play out his game and stay more relaxed.  


At one time, I too believed that the aggressive interrogations often accompanying polygraph “tests” were merely a pretext for evaluating an applicant under stress. I now know this to be false. 

You correctly pointed out that the examiner’s primary job is to elicit as much information as possible about an applicant’s past. Unfortunately, what you describe is contrary to the interview and interrogation techniques that polygraphers are extensively trained in. 

Staying calm and relaxed when falsely accused of something is widely considered a sign of deception. According to I&I literature, when honest individuals are falsely accused of something, they tend to go bat-shit. It would be a tremendous mistake for an examinee to think that agencies use the polygraph as a “stress test” and to simply remain calm while enduring extensive abuse. For this very reason, we advise making two firm denials of false accusations and then ending the interrogation. 

Quote:
I feel the reason the authors of the posts on your web site failed and are so angry is they are actually honest people that just walked into the room expecting it to be a simple test and had no clue it was going to be so intense and invasive.


I can’t say I was expecting a simple test. I can say that I was expecting a valid test, which is one having been shown to produce accurate results. I certainly was not expecting to be evaluated with a “test” universally opposed by academics as “having no predictive value” (for polygraph screening read: no better than chance). 

Quote:
There is something wrong honest people failing however the FBI looks at the big picture and the reality is... "why take a chance on you when there's 100 other people waiting to take the spot you applied for."  


This is indeed the government bureaucrat’s mentality. Still, this is foolish especially in the dangerous times in which we live. We need the best and brightest protecting our country, not the 2nd best. Suppose we take the entire applicant pool. We rank order them by desirability after researching credentials, interviewing, etc. If we then start eliminating candidates based on a “test” blasted by researchers for predicting absolutely nothing and going to the next applicants in the line, we are being absolutely asinine. If the “Magic 8 ball” was the truth detection device of choice, heads would have been rolling after Sept. 11. Polygraphy is nothing more than the scientific equivalent of a liquid-filled plastic pool ball. This is the very reason that the authors of this site are outraged. 

Quote:
Just the fact the test exists causes many dishonest people from even applying.  I think the "fear" of the test effectively removes many people and the tactics used by testers forces many others to admit to crimes.  You need to look at the big picture and not just focus on the honest people that get a false read.  


Polygraphy certainly has not been shown to be an effective deterrent. Look at Aldrich Ames, Ana Belen Montes, etc. Moreover, in the words of former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Dr. Drew C. Richardson, “Attempting to maintain such a universal bluff would be impossible if not downright comical.” As it stands now, any applicant who does ½ hour of research on the Internet regarding polygraphy will come to the conclusion that it is a fraud. 

Quote:
I think the poly might be better utilized as a tool to assist in the background check.  The investigators conducting the check would be informed of what areas you failed on and look deeper into the area.


Why do you think that background investigators should focus their efforts on areas “failed” on a polygraph screening “exam” when such a test has not been show to have any predictive validity? 
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #8 - Oct 28th, 2002 at 7:29pm
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Fair Chance,

I would never try to tell you your good integrity being disreguarded by the feds is "acceptable losses".  It would upset anyone.
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #9 - Oct 28th, 2002 at 7:59pm
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Staying calm and relaxed when falsely accused of something is widely considered a sign of deception. According to I&I literature, when honest individuals are falsely accused of something, they tend to go bat-shit


This is true.   

Suppose we take the entire applicant pool. We rank order them by desirability after researching credentials, interviewing, etc. If we then start eliminating candidates based on a “test” blasted by researchers for predicting absolutely nothing and going to the next applicants in the line, we are being absolutely asinine. 

This reasoning is flawed.   


Polygraphy certainly has not been shown to be an effective deterrent. Look at Aldrich Ames, Ana Belen Montes, etc. Moreover, in the words of former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Dr. Drew C. Richardson, “Attempting to maintain such a universal bluff would be impossible if not downright comical.” As it stands now, any applicant who does ½ hour of research on the Internet regarding polygraphy will come to the conclusion that it is a fraud. 


Again flawed reasoning.  As few samples of the population don't prove statistical norms and it fails to address the thousands of people that don't even apply because they know they have a past that they "think" the poly test will discover.

Why do you think that background investigators should focus their efforts on areas “failed” on a polygraph screening “exam” when such a test has not been show to have any predictive validity? 

Simple.  If you totaly remove the polygraph from the picture then one can only assume the reason people fail a specific part of the test is because the interviewer has a "hunch", based on countless interviews, someting is being withheld or lied about on that specific part of the exam.  His "hunch" should not just end your career but be passed on to the background investigators that hit the streets.

I'm not an expert but what I do know is this... I have 13 years of investigative experience and I took a polygraph years ago.  I was straight forward, honest, and passed despite my tester claiming I was being deceptive.  It's my firm belief the polygraph is not scientific and the testing process come down more to ones personality and projection of honesty.  My experience as an investigator tells me that when I talk to people I can very often tell if they are being dishonest, but not in what way specificly.  I assure you poly testers do the same thing and when they get a "hunch" you're gone.  And yes you can argue it isn't fair but nothing is 100% fair.  If the information you fail on the poly was passed to investigators like I mentioned above it would help make things a little "more" fair.
  
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2002 at 2:57am
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Quote:
This reasoning is flawed.  


Please elaborate.

Quote:
Again flawed reasoning.  As few samples of the population don't prove statistical norms and it fails to address the thousands of people that don't even apply because they know they have a past that they "think" the poly test will discover.


Where has it been shown that polygraphy is effective deterrent? The "as long as people believe that the device can detect their lies, polygraphy is effective" argument was weak to begin with and only grows weaker with time (especially post NAS report). I think that it's fair to assume that applicants for federal jobs are a fairly sophisticated bunch. I don't agree with your unsupported assertion that "there must be lots of people out there that are scared off by the polygraph and don't even bother to apply." Sophisticated applicants, especially those with support from foreign intelligence services are unlikely to be fooled.  

Quote:
Simple.  If you totally remove the polygraph from the picture then one can only assume the reason people fail a specific part of the test is because the interviewer has a "hunch", based on countless interviews, something is being withheld or lied about on that specific part of the exam.  His "hunch" should not just end your career but be passed on to the background investigators that hit the streets.


As it stands now, with polygraph screening, the interrogator is doing nothing more than playing hunches. The only difference is that he is developing his hunches from reading lines on a sheet of paper that have been shown by our nation's greatest scientists to mean absolutely nothing when used in the screening aspect. If the interrogator does develop a gut feeling on something with a background, he should recognize it as that and attempt to support it. We would be better off with investigators relying on their intellect and experience as opposed to pseudoscience masquerading as a forensic test.

I do agree with you that during any pre-employment investigation, serious efforts should be made to corroborate any information (positive or negative) obtained at any point in the investigation.
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #11 - Oct 29th, 2002 at 8:24pm
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[quote author=Gino J. Scalabrini link=board=Proc&num=1035569166&start=0#10 date=10/28/02 at 18:57:21]


Please elaborate.

I wanted to be sure I read your statment correctly.  After re-reading it I see it's not flawed.  The first time I read it I thought you were against the methodology of ranking people.  In review you're against the poly removing good applicants and whith that I agree.  My apologies.

Where has it been shown that polygraphy is effective deterrent? 

Common sense is where it's shown.  We don't need a test or study for everything.  You're basing your information about the polygraph test being useless on everything "you" know.  Based on you're messages, and just the fact you search the web for information, you are well informed and are the type I suspect that seeks understanding and truth.  Most people are clueless and don't seek the truth.  These are the ones that don't bother taking the test.  You can't use your knowledge and intellect as the norm.  The majority of people get their information from unrealiable sources like TV shows.  I'm not talking about spies here.  With any system in place you will have pros trying to beat it.  I'm talking about the millions of average working folks that think the poly is accurate.  Just watch an episode of Ricky Lake.  hehe   The poly keeps them away so the agencies can deal with a smaller (and maybe more intelligence) sample of the population.  The poly test needs to be looked at from many angles. Not just the angle of being in the chair and failing it.


  
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #12 - Oct 29th, 2002 at 8:39pm
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Matt B. wrote on Oct 29th, 2002 at 8:24pm:

Please elaborate.

I wanted to be sure I read your statment correctly.  After re-reading it I see it's not flawed.  The first time I read it I thought you were against the methodology of ranking people.  In review you're against the poly removing good applicants and whith that I agree.  My apologies.

Where has it been shown that polygraphy is effective deterrent? 

Common sense is where it's shown.  We don't need a test or study for everything.  You're basing your information about the polygraph test being useless on everything "you" know.  Based on you're messages, and just the fact you search the web for information, you are well informed and are the type I suspect that seeks understanding and truth.  Most people are clueless and don't seek the truth.  These are the ones that don't bother taking the test.  You can't use your knowledge and intellect as the norm.  The majority of people get their information from unrealiable sources like TV shows.  I'm not talking about spies here.  With any system in place you will have pros trying to beat it.  I'm talking about the millions of average working folks that think the poly is accurate.  Just watch an episode of Ricky Lake.  hehe   The poly keeps them away so the agencies can deal with a smaller (and maybe more intelligence) sample of the population.  The poly test needs to be looked at from many angles. Not just the angle of being in the chair and failing it.



"Common sense" says the polygraph should work -- isn't it just common sense that people get nervous when they lie, and should be comfortable with authority figures if they haven't done anything wrong?  Yet common sense has been proven wrong time and time again -- and the polygraph is one example.  No, people don't always get nervous when they lie, and they sometimes get nervous when telling the truth.

Psychology is a science forged in part out of debunking "common sense".   

Anyway, you will note that the original claim was that as more and more people spend the 1/2 hour online required to learn of the polygraph's bogusness, it will lose its effectiveness.  And as the word is spread, even the "dumb ones" will find out about it.

Doesn't that seem like "common sense" to you?

Skeptic
  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #13 - Oct 29th, 2002 at 8:46pm
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Skeptic.  With all due respect, please read all the lessages and follow along beofre you coment.  It only waste everyone's time when you post something that twist a topic or statement.

The stament "common sense" was used to show the poly scares people away and had NOTING to due with the fact it's an inacurate tool.   

  
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Matt (Guest)
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Re: MY thoughts and experience on polygraphs
Reply #14 - Oct 29th, 2002 at 8:58pm
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Skeptic...

Anyway, you will note that the original claim was that as more and more people spend the 1/2 hour online required to learn of the polygraph's bogusness, it will lose its effectiveness.  And as the word is spread, even the "dumb ones" will find out about it.

Doesn't that seem like "common sense" to you?

I think you're impression of the world is distorted.  I'm not sure if you deal with the public often but most people don't research the polygraph in their free time.  Again you base life off of your experiences and not the norm.  Why not take a personal poll and ask 10 friends that don't work in law enforcment what their feelings about the poly is.  If you can't see the simplisity in what I'm saying then there's no sense in having anymore conversation.
  
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