touche wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2002 at 6:38am:


I don't buy it for a second, Touche.  I'm sure you are well aware of the private messaging capability on this board, and George and Mark's private email addresses are available here, as well.  It's obvious you publicly posted on this board precisely because you wanted to draw public attention to your claims of damning "evidence".  You admitted as much when you said:

touche wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2002 at 2:30am:


You are therefore in no position to complain about public commentary, and frankly I find your pretensions to offense over having your "private conversation" interrupted insulting.

I'm equally certain that if you were truly confident in your evidence, you'd summarize it here.  When I get the time, I'll look into an interlibrary loan, because I value the truth and go out of my way to debate issues honestly.  IMHO, however, your unwillingness to simply present your "evidence", preferring instead to loudly make vague pronouncements, speaks volumes.

Skeptic

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Just can't get a break can I? I am beginning to see what the pro-poly people say when they comment that it is useless to engage you folks in any discussion. I post something for you to review and I get attacked and accused of "lacking courage", being discourteous, engaging n a "hit and run argument", and being deliberately vague (all courtesy of Skeptic) Then you choose to agree with Skeptic and accuse me of being coy! I told you that I lacked the ability to get the material to you at that time. I understand the problems associated with your physical location and thought that Mr.Mallah would eagerly assist you.  I guess I was wrong.  How did he respond?  Instead of accepting responsibility for what he is attributed with saying; the word "never" comes to mind, he not so cleverly shifts the blame by reminding people that Ed Curran said "he was not aware..." C'mon guys! When I told you that I did not have the capability to provide you with what you wanted, that can hardly be referred to as coy.  Aren't you reading a bit into that. I told you that I wanted to provide you with the information and that I would await your response.  I was less than surprised when your friends initiated the attack..it showed me a lot about your group.  The material is rather lengthy, but I will try to get it nonetheless and type it into a posting.  And as for Skeptic, I do not care yif you join in the argument or not, I sort of expected a response first from George....you sound too much like a watch dog. Chill Dude!

Chapter 16

(Some paragraphs are shortened for space considerations. Some text has ben paraphased, but no meaning has been changed).

For more than four years, the shrewdest agents in American and allied military intelligence crried on a top secret investigation on two continents.  The investigfation focused on Frank Hirt, a man suspected of being a Nazi spy, who later proved to be operating under the direct orders of the Reich.

Credit for this achievement goes to a retired Berkley police lieutenant, Albert E. Riedel.

A native born American, Hirt spent much of his life in Germany.  He eventually became a solider in the United States Air Force and might have succeeded in continuing his espionage if not for the results of a lie detector test.

Hirt's activities began before the U.S. entered WW II.  British intelligence officers first became suspcious of his movement and shadowed him when he left Germany and began wandering through Switzerland.

After th U.S. entered the war against Germany and Japan, American intelliegcne agents joined the British in keeping a watchful eye on Hirt, but they lacked substantative evidence against him.

Intelligence agents trailed Hirt to Bermuda and observed him flashing laerge sums of money and later discovered that at one time, Hirt held the rank of corporal in Hitler's army. He was questioned by the British and soon left, arriving in Miami, where the FBI pickedup the trail. It was then learned that Hirt had been drafted into the Air Force and worked as a mechanic on a number of bases, but apparently because he was disliked, he was frequently transferred.

A high ranking officer called for Hirt to be arrested, yet the agents felt they needed more proof.  Someone suggested Riedel and a "lie detector" test.  Shortly thereafter, Hirt was arrested and brought to Riedel's office in California to have the test administered to him.

Despite the fact that he believed he would be vindicated by taking the test, Hirt was questioned by Riedel during the test. 

When confronted with the deceptive results of the test, Hirt stated: "Hell, I see I can't get away with it. I might as well tell you the truth". 

The story that the man slowly unfolded - a full confession - was startling. Not only did he frankly admit to spying for the Reich, but he also revealed every detail of his travels and his work under direct orders from Germany.

(A lengthy discussion takes place here where Hirt details how he performed his espionage activities, what his targets were (high altitude bombers)  and how he communicated with his handlers in Germany using invisible ink letters)

After the details of Hirt's confession had been put on paper, he was returned to miltary custody and confined in an American military prison.  He remained there long after the Nazi empire had collapsed.  A trial was considered after the war,but higher military authorities realized it would be useless to attempt a formal trial because the principal corroborating witnesses were either dead in Germany or in prison as war criminals. Hirt was finally returned to Germany, and he quickly vanished.

Okay, there it is.

Touche,

Thanks for the summary.

Based on your summary and looking at this in the light most favorable to the polygraph, one would have to conclude that the polygraph extracted valuable information which was of potentially great assistance in the war effort, and but for the polygraph, we would not have uncovered it.

Skeptic's point must be remembered though, that it was not a polygraph screening that caught Hirt.  You would not consider his polygraph test to be a screening, would you?

Accepting your information and in the interest of fairness and avoiding confusion, it would probably be more accurate to say that polygraph screenings have never caught a single spy in all its history.

It is also worth noting that this test was administered in the 1940's, before, I believe, the public had much information about the polygraph.  It's clear from your description that Hirt believed in the power of the polygraph, and confessed accordingly.

Worth understanding here is how much his confession is attributable to good interrogation skills.  "Deceptive charts" plus poor interrogation skills generally equal no confession.  NDI charts plus good interrogation skills may still equal a confession.  My guess is that with all the information against Hirt, the polygraph examiner was going to take a shot at him no matter what the charts looked like.  What was there to lose?   


It would also be interesting to know whether the polygraph falsely accused any suspected Nazi agents, and in so doing, sabotaged the war effort by misleading investigators.

Finally, a key question is this (as George has simiilarly asked): what is the value of the polygraph when the subject does not believe in it, and will not confess based on its "findings"?  That brings us to the pure diagnostic value of the charts, and on that score, the NAS has spoken quite clearly.

Touche,

Thank you for abridging and posting the excerpt from Eugene B. Block's Lie Detectors: Their History and Use for our review.

Some troubling questions remain. If Hirt gave a full confession to being a Nazi spy, why was he never charged with espionage (and/or treason)? Block explains that "higher military authorities realized it would be useless to attempt a formal trial because the principal corroborating witnesses were either dead in Germany or in prison as war criminals." But I find this explanation hard to believe. Presumably, testimony could easily have been sought from any potential witnesses imprisoned as war criminals. Moreover, the alleged full confession to wartime espionage should have been enough for a conviction on treason charges without any corroborating witnesses. And it should have been possible to independently corroborate at least some details of the alleged full confession.

Was Hirt's confession genuine? Or was it like that of U.S. Navy petty officer Daniel M. King, who, during a coercive polygraph interrogation, falsely confessed to sending a computer disk to the Russian Embassy? Or the Marine embassy guards in Moscow who, during coercive polygraph interrogations falsely confessed to espionage? Or Egyptian student Abdallah Higazy, who falsely confessed to owning an aviation radio that was not his after an FBI polygrapher allegedly threatened his family?

On what charge(s) was Frank Hirt "confined in an American military prison?" Was he ever charged with and/or convicted of any crime by any military (or civilian) court? And why was Hirt, a U.S. citizen by birth, "returned to Germany?"

Could you tell us what source(s) Block cites for his information on the Hirt case? I'd be interested in any further details about this case that you (or anyone else) may be able to provide.

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PPD-Fed,
If you're going to take the time to write up such long pieces of sarcastic fluff, you should at least register and have the post count towards your board seniority

Skeptic

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Wasn't that the same NCIS team that so successfully resolved the extent of Lonetree's betrayal against his fellow Americans?  You also might want to do some more research into Bracy's case.  He might have "got off", but that by no means proves he suffered any "ordeal" at the hands of NCIS.  In fact, I understand that debriefs of former KGB support his original arrest and prosecution.  It is one of the great mistakes of justice that he not only got off, but ended up as the dependant husband of a woman Marine, living in Marine housing at Quantico, Va., shopping at the commissary, and being cared for by the same military health care system provided by the heroes who protect us all AGAINST leeches like Bracy...

PDD-Fed