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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Who's Using Polygraph (Read 62726 times)
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #60 - Oct 5th, 2002 at 12:58am
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Twoblock,

A gold miner!  Well I gotta say, that is something different.  I must also admit, I have never met a gold miner I would classify as an "idiot", but then I've never met a gold miner.  So it's up to you to uphold the reputation of the profession.

Anonymous,

Not too surprised by your response.  As for what I believe you to be in real life, well, maybe a professional juror for starters.

Maybe Skeptic and/or Beech Trees will be a little less fearful of giving a slight indication as to their professions.  As for the debate, it has nothing to do with "changing playing fields", however it does offer some insight as to one's thinking.  Most of the "pro-polygraph soul mates" who post here make it clear they are in the law enforcement profession at some level, and one would expect them to be in favor of anything that might assist them in their duties.  So maybe Skeptic or Beech Trees will allow a little insight into their experiences, which may explain their thinking, by just giving a slight indication as to their line of work.  After all, lifes experiences play a major role in the forming of opinions.  George M's life experience with failing a polygraph resulted in his forming a very anti-polygraph point of view, which ultimately resulted in this site.

Batman
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #61 - Oct 5th, 2002 at 5:33am
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Batman wrote on Oct 5th, 2002 at 12:58am:

Maybe Skeptic and/or Beech Trees will be a little less fearful of giving a slight indication as to their professions.


Current circumstances prohibit me from being too specific.  I am a current applicant to a position that requires a polygraph.  If it turns out that I do not get the position, I will be more than happy to be more candid.  But unfortunately, I believe I have good reason to fear retribution for revealing identifying information at this time.

Skeptic
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #62 - Oct 5th, 2002 at 5:59am
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Skeptic wrote on Oct 5th, 2002 at 5:33am:


I am a current applicant to a position that requires a polygraph.


Sorry to hear that Skeptic, In addition to TLBTLD, I would recommend you acquire texts written for polygrapers and interrogaters. Deep understanding of what these people do will help you not appear to be adversarial. Also, don't underestimate the power of human element, Get Cialdini's book and grok it. Remember, they are just trying to do a job too. Try to put yourself in their place.

You are a bright individual. It's very clear from the reading I've done that these are far more likely to have done internet research on the polygraph. How will you respond if the test is partially a CKT. Do you recognise the names "Douglas Adams" or "Douglas Williams". Just think carefully.

I won't advise countermeasures, I think that's an individual decision.

-Marty
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #63 - Oct 5th, 2002 at 8:24pm
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Batman, you write in part:

Quote:
George M's life experience with failing a polygraph resulted in his forming a very anti-polygraph point of view, which ultimately resulted in this site.


This is not quite correct. When I failed my FBI pre-employment polygraph examination despite having told the truth, I was dumbfounded. I couldn't believe it. But it didn't directly cause me to form an antipolygraph point of view. My polygrapher had told me that the polygraph was 98% accurate. I naively believed him, and supposed I must have fallen within the 2% margin of error of an otherwise valid test.

It was only after reading David T. Lykken's seminal book on polygraphy, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector that my position against polygraphy solidified. I was outraged to learn that my government had branded me as a liar based on a procedure that has no scientific basis whatsoever. Whereas I had adhered to a code not to lie, cheat, or steal, or tolerate those who do, my government (through an FBI polygrapher) had deliberately lied to me, just as it continues to lie to every single employee or prosepective employee it polygraphs. And I had no avenue of appeal.

For several years, I bit the bullet. I said nothing publicly. I had no idea how many others had been similarly affected. That changed in 1999, when I found the website NoPolygraph.com and linked up with other polygraph victims, who are much more numerous than I had supposed. I was at first reluctant, but ultimately felt compelled to take a public stand against the fraud that is polygraph screening.

A year later--and after much research, correspondence, and cooperation with others--I co-authored The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and helped to launch AntiPolygraph.org.

So, in some sense, my experience in failing a polygraph "test" ultimately led to my forming an antipolygraph viewpoint and the establishment of this website. But it was not so direct a path as your post suggests.
  

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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #64 - Oct 7th, 2002 at 5:08pm
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Skeptic
Your correct in that an astronomer does not have to gather moon rocks to be respected.  But my problem with BT is that he is talking of matters that must be considered practical, not theoretical.  To have one such as he, speak of police abuse, or comment on investigative procedure is galling.  But even so, Im going to make a real attempt (I may fail) to stop this acrimonious back and forth.  Because someone is closed minded and not worthy of serious consideration, is not a good reason for me to be disrespectful.  Im sure if he worked with me I would not spend the time it took to go down to the DARE office to talk to him.
Im sorry you think I stray off topic. My original points have all been on the topic that was important to me when I first logged on.  Many here want to debate the various studies that support thier viewpoint. I do not.  I do not feel I could add to the work of Barland, Honts, Matte or even Kleiner or Krapohl in any significant way.  I am also reading the opposing viewpoint and see some points of concern.
Someones experiences are important if they are to be respected, simply having memorized the anti-polygraph literature is not exactly a scholarly pursuit.
In my opinion, attempting to "shout down" by e-mail any moderate view will hurt this site more than help it, but that does not concern me.  All that will be left are those that have failed.....
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #65 - Oct 7th, 2002 at 5:09pm
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Skeptic
I forgot to wish you good luck in your applicant process
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #66 - Oct 7th, 2002 at 5:52pm
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The_Breeze wrote on Oct 7th, 2002 at 5:09pm:

Skeptic
I forgot to wish you good luck in your applicant process


Breeze,
Thanks for the sentiments Cheesy  I have several employment options at this point, so I'm not utterly dependent on the results of the polygraph.

Skeptic
« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2002 at 7:53pm by Skeptic »  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #67 - Oct 7th, 2002 at 9:02pm
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Skeptic
Regardless, I would like to hear (in a general way) how you fared, what your impression was of your process and results.  Im sure others would want specific details of any countermeasure attempt you made.
Im not sure why, but I dont think you intend to use any.
Anyway, I hope in your case you end up where you want to be.
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #68 - Oct 8th, 2002 at 2:15am
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The_Breeze wrote on Oct 4th, 2002 at 8:06pm:
My point to you remains and is a constant, You have no basis to state anything with certainty about the polygraph. You are completely dependent on others research, have obviously overlooked or dismissed any source that does not conform to your viewpoint, and completely lack input here.


I see. Hmm.... An interesting new theory on why you don't have to answer direct questions posed to you. If I am to understand your tortured logic, I also may not make comments about the negative impact rape has on women, because not only have I never raped anyone, I have never been raped, and can only point to psychological textbooks to support my assertion that rape hurts a person physically and mentally.

I may not make the assertion that slavery is a heinous institution because I have never owned slaves, nor have I been a slave. I can only point to the sordid history of the slave trade in the United States (which I read about in books), which apparently leaves me unqualified to challenge someone who promotes slavery. "Have YOU ever owned a slave? Well, then I don't have to answer YOUR questions, you rank amateur!"

I guess comments and questions about the Constitution are right out also, since I didn't author it. Oh well......

And apparently, most incredibly of all, questions I pose about the validity of the polygraph may be dodged because (according to you) I am not a law enforcement officer of (in your eyes) equal stature. 

Tell me, are you dodging my direct question concerning Edward Curran's televised statements for the same reason, because you don't like who is asking the question? You remember that question, right? It's the yes-or-no answer one you took two lengthy paragraphs to explain you were far too busy to answer.
  

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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #69 - Oct 8th, 2002 at 4:52am
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I expect someone will challenge me on the source of this quotation....it is coming..I just wanted to post it......

"Because of the great attraction police work has for the psychopath and other dangerous types, polygraphic screening for jobs on the police force or for other sensitive occupations may be in the public interest."

 

Dr. David Lykken
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #70 - Oct 8th, 2002 at 5:36am
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Touche,

Apparently your rush to print such nonsense out of context and without source attribution must be driven by your knowledge that the National Academy of Sciences will likely tomorrow formerly declare the use of polygraph screening invalid.... thus putting it in the category of “formally stupid" and on the road to being discontinued and likely outlawed.  Stay tuned...
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #71 - Oct 8th, 2002 at 6:50am
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Quote:

Touche,

Apparently your rush to print such nonsense out of context and without source attribution must be driven by your knowledge that the National Academy of Sciences will likely tomorrow formerly declare the use of polygraph screening invalid.... thus putting it in the category of “formally stupid" and on the road to being discontinued and likely outlawed.  Stay tuned...



Anonymous,
I wouldn't count your chickens just yet, but I too am looking forward to the report.

Skeptic
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #72 - Oct 9th, 2002 at 3:26pm
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Chew on this, the_breeze et. al.:

"There has been no serious effort by the US Governement to develop the scientific base for the psychophysiological detection of deception by the polygraph or any other technique, even though criticisms of the polygraph's scientific foundation have been raised prominently for decades. The reason for this failure is primarily structural. Because polygraph and other related research is managed and supported by national security and law enforcement agencies that do not operate in a culture of science to meet the needs of detecting deception and that also believe in and are commited to the polygraph, this research is not structured within these agencies to give basic science its appropriate place in the development of techniques for the physiological detection of deception." 

I find it irritating and hypocritical that I be accused of lacking knowledge on this subject simply because I am not a Primary Source of (some of) the information I post. As far as I'm concerned, the pro-polygraph law enforcement types on this board better keep up the home-owner's insurance on their glass houses.

Dave
  

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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #73 - Oct 9th, 2002 at 7:51pm
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Quote:

Touche,

Apparently your rush to print such nonsense out of context and without source attribution must be driven by your knowledge that the National Academy of Sciences will likely tomorrow formerly declare the use of polygraph screening invalid.... thus putting it in the category of “formally stupid" and on the road to being discontinued and likely outlawed.  Stay tuned...




Dear Anonymous.....I do not think an apology is in order, but this was not nonsense...Dr. Lykken did in fact say this...Gosh do you think this will affect his credibility with you folks who get great pleasure in bashing the polygraph at every turn....you can't play on both sides of the street....Oh, by the way...here is the source attribution:

Psychology Today, 1974 (March)
  
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Re: Who's Using Polygraph
Reply #74 - Oct 9th, 2002 at 8:27pm
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Touche,

I did not question that such a quote might not have existed, but that you did not/have not presented it in any context, and initially presented it without source attribution.  What was your rush to do so? Do you really have any question what David Lykken’s position is regarding polygraph screening??  If so, you must have existed on the far side of the moon for the last forty years.  Nevertheless--no longer (if ever) an important issue...such a quote is the proverbial pimple on the elephant's behind.  Have you managed to look at the new elephant that has invaded your playground--the NAS report that completely and forever debunks polygraph screening as a diagnostic instrument??  There is no longer any defensible basis for continuing CT polygraph screening at the CIA, NSA, DoD, DIA, FBI, DOE, MI, etc or for employee/applicant screening at these organizations and the ATF, USSS, DEA, Customs, etc, or any state or local PD in the country, or the nonsense associated with post conviction testing of convicted sex offenders.  The NAS report has provided the evidence and the roadmap—get ready to have your world rocked…   
  
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