Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8 ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Constricting your sphincter (Read 50172 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6060
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #15 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 7:17am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Batman,

As Drew has suggested, Gino and I would very much welcome any specific criticism you may have for The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. In fact, we've set up a forum on this board specifically for such commentary.

You also wrote, "In the big scheme of things, this issue about polygraph is small potatoes to the great, great majority of people.  It's not even a blip on their radar screens." Of course, you're right. But this is really irrelevant to the merits of the case against polygraph screening. For those who have become its victims, polygraph policy is not just "small potatoes," and this website exists as a direct result of the harm being done to innocent persons through reliance on this pseudoscience. In addition, appreciable harm is being done to the national security as a result of a misplaced faith in polygraphy. We're working to put polygraph policy on the "public radar screen" by exposing polygraph waste, fraud and abuse. And we've been increasingly successful in reaching those who are directly affected by polygraph screening.
« Last Edit: Jul 26th, 2002 at 7:54am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #16 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 8:44am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  

Quote:
Batman: In the big scheme of things, this issue about polygraph is small potatoes to the great, great majority of people.  It's not even a blip on their radar screens.


I agree wholeheartedly as well. Most people in America could care less about polygraph screening. This is because the vast majority of Americans no longer have to have their lives influenced by this voodoo science thanks to the Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988. If anything, the lack of public attention received by the topic makes our work here all the more important.

Note: If the Internet was available in the mid 1980s, when polygraph screening in corporate America was as its peak, I think that it would be safe to say that people would be going batshit upon discovering this site. Would you agree, Batman?
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Batman (Guest)
Guest


Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #17 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 7:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Gino,

You Da Man, a sense of humor runs under all that antipolygraph brovado.

Drew,

I like your suggestion regarding the Ames charts.  If nothing else it would have been interesting to see the results.  I assume the additional 200 sets of charts would be ones that were evaluated as NDI.  This would have been a very interesting experiment indeed.  It would never be too late to push forth such an idea.  I have communicated with a few of the Polygraph Program Managers in the not to distant past, and have acquaintances at DoDPI.  If you don't mind, I think I will resubmit your suggestion.  I for one would be very interested to see just how it plays out.

And, as you know, some folks just can't go as public as others.  You too have a good weekend.

GEORGE????,

Is that you I hear touting that Lie Behind the Lie Detector again?  Granted, a somewhat interesting, and well researched document, but as I have expressed before, studies are almost always open to a broad range of interpretation.  People can very easily take most any study and make it fit their particular point of view.  It's kind of like that old saying, "Statistics lie and liers use statistics."  I just have never felt comfortable with any of the polygraph studies, those that indicate it has a high accuracy rate, as well as those that indicate it's a 50/50 proposition.  So the Lie behind the Lie Detector just didn't do a whole lot for me.  However, not to worry, there's always guys like Beech Trees who treat it like the Bible, and sleep with it under their pillow.

Batman
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #18 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 10:35pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
All,

I have to hand it to you all as this listing of postings was magnificent reading!  So....to all, while I have posted on another thread, would like to add/ask something within this thread.  The simple background is this....passed Ph I of the FBI and am onto the panel interview and then the poly.  So, (tongue in cheek) the "tastes great - less filling" question from me, BEFORE I read other threads carefully, AND decide whether or not to read TLBTLD-  Is more information about the FBI poly good for me or would it prove to be more harmful?

M6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6060
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #19 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:02pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
M6,

When it comes to polygraph screening, ignorance is no bliss. The FBI special agent applicant polygraph failure rate is reportedly now near 50%. Do you suppose that many liars are really passing Phase I?

It would behoove any FBI applicant to learn all he or she can about polygraph screening beforehand. You'll find a detailed explanation of what actually goes on in a pre-employment polygraph interrogation in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, and in Chapter 4, you'll find tips on how to protect yourself against the all too real danger of becoming a false positive. (You may also be interested in reading the statements of some FBI polygraph victims on the AntiPolygraph.org Personal Statements page.)
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #20 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:38pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

Thank you for your response.  I am chatting off line with Drew about this same topic.  Where did you discover a 50%^ fail rate?

M6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6060
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #21 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:43pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
M6,

It was reported in the Philadelphia Inquirer in May. Follow the link in my post above for details.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #22 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:49pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thank you.  However, they are on a time crunch to hire nearly 900 new agents.  Any thoughts to them relaxing the "false positives"....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #23 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

Sorry that last one was so short and confusing.  What I meant was, any thought of the FBI being less strict on past drug use?  To clarify, I don't mean a lessening of the standard, but rather a less stringent approach to false positives on the poly.

Cordially, M6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6060
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #24 - Jul 26th, 2002 at 11:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
On the contrary, it seems the "failure to pass" rate skyrocketed with the surfeit of applicants post-9/11.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #25 - Jul 27th, 2002 at 12:00am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Let me ask this, there is one area where my memory does not serve me well.  What is the number one way in dealing with this?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6060
Location: The Hague, The Netherlands
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #26 - Jul 27th, 2002 at 12:13am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
M6,

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. But faulty memory can certainly pose a problem during an FBI polygraph examination. Let's take the example of an applicant who has experimented with marijuana. He knows he used it less than the FBI's ceiling of 15 times, but he cannot remember precisely how many times he smoked it.

One FBI polygraph examiner has written that the examinee who admits to having smoked marijuana but professes to be unable to remember the precise number of times he smoked it is "going to fail." (See p. 57 of the 2nd edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.) The best way for the examinee who has smoked marijuana within the FBI's limits to deal with this situation might be to estimate the number of times he actually used it and then to state it as a well-remembered fact, rather than an estimate.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Drew Richardson
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 427
Joined: Sep 7th, 2001
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #27 - Jul 28th, 2002 at 3:04pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Batman,

You wrote:

Quote:
...I like your suggestion regarding the Ames charts.  If nothing else it would have been interesting to see the results.  I assume the additional 200 sets of charts would be ones that were evaluated as NDI.  This would have been a very interesting experiment indeed.  It would never be too late to push forth such an idea.  I have communicated with a few of the Polygraph Program Managers in the not to distant past, and have acquaintances at DoDPI.  If you don't mind, I think I will resubmit your suggestion.  I for one would be very interested to see just how it plays out...


I appreciate your vote of confidence and willingness to try to further this notion of days gone by.  I should point out the obvious though...in order for this analysis to have any credibility whatsoever it would have to be administrated by those with no obvious biases regarding the outcome.  Because DoDPI exists only so long as polygraphy (and to a large extent the large polygraph screening programs that have and continue to exist within DoD and other government agencies) exists, it should have absolutely nothing to do with validating anything to do with polygraph screening (to include this notional research effort) or those specific programs upon which its foundation exists.  

For similar and even more obvious reasons the polygraph examiners/operational program heads of the agency polygraph programs that utilize counterintelligence polygraph screening can have nothing to do with the ADMINISTRATION of this research.  Although they should have absolutely no control over experimental design and implementation (to include verification that chart selection of surrounding exam material was accurate and complete) they would be appropriate and likely represent a necessary candidate pool from which individuals would be chosen to score these charts.  The participation by selected examiners (because of the potential serious ramifications to national security stemming from the results of said study) should be preceded by signed sworn statements (presented to Federal Law Enforcement officers) in which they (the examiners) clearly state that they have no prior knowledge of the Ames polygraph charts or (to their knowledge) any other polygraph charts which might be included in this study.  It should be made abundantly clear that any misrepresentations in said statement not only could be but also would be prosecuted under Title 18 USC 1001.

I would suggest the National Academy of Science (perhaps even the currently assembled panel) as a  starting point in a search for an administrator(s) of this study.
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2002 at 3:30pm by Drew Richardson »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Mustang6
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 13
Joined: Jul 24th, 2002
Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #28 - Jul 29th, 2002 at 4:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George,

Thank you again for your prompt and informative responses.  Your answer was right on target.  There is no area that concerns me with regard to the process, other than that you mentioned.  Thanks again.  Best wishes and continued success with your informative and helpful site.

v/r M6
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box hardworker
Guest


Re: Constricting your sphincter
Reply #29 - Aug 1st, 2002 at 8:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
If I fail the poly and I am working for a private company, do I loose all my clearances or just will not qualify for poly. Does this mean I could be out of a job right now that does not require poly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Constricting your sphincter

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X