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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Honesty is better than deception (Read 40602 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #60 - Mar 5th, 2002 at 9:11pm
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Duc748 wrote on Mar 4th, 2002 at 12:22am:
beech trees, here's what we say in the military and those appointed to congress, senate and office of the President. We have one portion that should be added to the FBI (in bold)...

'I "name", do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely; without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter.  
So help me God.'


I'm not certain if this is supposed to be a devastating riposte or not. It would appear you're making sly reference to my using countermeasures during my polygraph exam, and how the oath above would make a person hypocritical and a liar by doing same.

Unfortunately, the 'purpose of evasion' part means that one is not enlisting for the purposes of fleeing prosecution or as the result of being blackmailed.
  

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #61 - Mar 5th, 2002 at 11:31pm
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I find it kind of funny that the INS requires those being naturalized to say:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

And those being commissioned to the armed forces and those taking office say it, yet the FBI does not.

and beech trees, upon reading it further, it does sound as though I was taking a jab, but that wasn't my intent. I simply find it ironic that several oaths include this phrase, but for some reason the FBI does not. You actually brought that to my attention with your post.
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2002 at 12:35am by Duc748 »  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #62 - Mar 6th, 2002 at 4:44am
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  Quote:
                      I too was very nervous when taking my poly. That's normal. However, a
                       polygrapher is supposed to "dial out" that nervousness. The polygrapher showed
                       me all 6 of my paper tests and I could clearly see my heart
                       rate/breathing/sweat lines on the paper. As the tests moved on, my lines
                       became smoother and smoother, as I calmed and relaxed.


Duc748,

I have been reviewing this topic with great interest for a while and caught this quote the second time through. I have been victimized by polygraph and didn't know it until I discovered this site.

For myself this site gave me some valuable insight to how I was "duped" into believing that telling the truth and as you say "Be a Man" really didn't matter because the polygrapher does what he wants.

I would like to direct you to your quote above.  If the FBI gave you a paper trace polygraph versus a computer oriented one, and you say you have security clearance? That raises a huge red flag. The largest most modern crime fighting organization  in the world still resorting to antiquated technology to test for "deception". I suppose that a "senior" polygrapher performed the test as well. If I could see and watch the needles move, I would relax as well just from the fascination of the golden age technology.

Now I know why Ed Curran wanted someone with 20 years "experience" doing his "test". 

I await your response Sir. Your opinion and vigorous defense of the same are good reading


Fred F. Wink
« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2002 at 6:09am by Fred F. »  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #63 - Mar 6th, 2002 at 7:08am
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Fred,
Quote:
For myself this site gave me some valuable insight to how I was "duped" into believing that telling the truth and as you say Be a Man really didn't matter because the polygrapher does what he wants.

Does what he wants?

Quote:
If the FBI gave you a paper trace polygraph versus a computer oriented one, and you say you have security clearance? That raises a huge red flag.

Why does this raise a red flag? Apparently, some places haven't updated their equipment. I didn't even know there was such a thing as computerized polygraphs until mentioned on this board. And what does my security clearance have to do with a paper polygraph?

Quote:
The largest most modern crime fighting organization  in the world still resorting to antiquated technology to test for "deception". I suppose that a "senior" polygrapher performed the test as well. If I could see and watch the needles move, I would relax as well just from the fascination of the golden age technology.

I couldn't see the polygraph. I was facing a white wall, but could vaguely hear the needles moving over the paper. And was he a "senior" polygrapher? I don't know? He said he'd been in for 20 years, but how long of that time he did poly's, I couldn't tell you. He didn't tell me.

Quote:
I await your response Sir. Your opinion and vigorous defense of the same are good reading.

Am I defending the polygraph here? Or am I saying that honesty is better than disception?

I'm only posting here for one reason. To tell people that visit your site that countermeasures aren't neccessary. I'm not saying I have vast experience with this subject, because I don't. But I am saying, that I am one person, that took a poly, told the truth, and passed. I didn't use any c/m's.

I realize that the majority of the people that visit this site have failed a poly. I would say that the majority of them deserved to. Not all, but the majority. This is just my personal opinion after reading a lot of the posts. However, there are people out there, that have nothing to hide, that may come to this site and change their mind and use c/m's because of this site. (run on sentence, I know) Then they fail, because they did use c/m's. What do you tell these people? "Oh well, you chose to do so."

I'm just giving those that come to this site another point of view. I don't think that's a bad thing, and I don't think Drew, George or Gino would argue with me on that. I believe that different points of view spark good discussions and bring life to a thread.

I hope I have answered some of your questions Fred, and if you could, please answer mine. I'm curious about the security clearance and use of an old polygraph in particular. Cheers.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #64 - Mar 7th, 2002 at 4:05am
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Duc748,

Quote:
Does what he wants?


The basic premise of the polygrapher's success is to promote an environment of fear. If the polygrapher isn't successful he can resort to other "measures" such as the post-poly interrogation, badgering, or since the examinee has signed a release of liability, the polygrapher has carte blanche to manipulate the outcome since they are not accountable for it. For example, if you anger the polygrapher, he can claim you are "deceptive", their peers will support it and you have failed when  you actually may have "passed". Of course, this is my opinion, I was truthful, and still was "deceptive"

Quote:
If the FBI gave you a paper trace polygraph versus a computer oriented one, and you say you have security clearance? That raises a huge red flag.


Sir, Like I stated in the other post, The FBI is the largest and most modern (or so I thought) crime fighting organization in the world. Paper trace polygraphy is akin to tube radio and television versus the modern curcuitry of todays audio-visual equipment. You cannot get the same accuracy(or lack of) from antiquated technology than from modern technology. You would think that when National security is on the line you want the best technology available to determine fitness for this clearance. I am not saying that you are not deserving of your clearance, but I am appalled at the way it is determined, thus the red flag.

Finally, I am not and will not attack you for your position. Your point of view is welcomed and as you have seen, has sparked  some spirited debate. That is what this website is all about.

I hope I answered your questions satisfactorily

Fred F. Wink
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #65 - Mar 7th, 2002 at 7:05am
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Fred,

Although I do not have time for a long explanation, I will briefly address one of your comments from your last post.  You referred to antiquated polygraph and its abilities or lack there of.  I assume you were referring to the analog polygraph instrument.  Contrary to your beliefs, the analog instrument produces as good if not better physiological tracings in some of the components.  There are pros and cons to both instruments.
  

Quam verum decipio nos
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #66 - Mar 7th, 2002 at 4:17pm
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Fred,
     I currently hold a TS/SCI clearance with my current job. Once I go in the FBI my clearance will be downgraded to what I'm assuming will be Secret.
    Just to let you know...every officer in the military holds a Secret clearance. No polygraph or questionaire, just carte blanc (sic?) clearance to all.
    So it's not a big surprise that a clearance would be given to FBI agents. And besides it's not the clearance that counts...it's the need to know.
    You could have a secret clearance, but never see secret material, simply because you don't have that need to know.
    Cheers.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #67 - Mar 9th, 2002 at 6:55am
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J.B. McCloughan wrote on Mar 7th, 2002 at 7:05am:
 I assume you were referring to the analog polygraph instrument.  Contrary to your beliefs, the analog instrument produces as good if not better physiological tracings in some of the components.  There are pros and cons to both instruments.



J.B.

I cannot concur with your analogy. I have worked in the medical field for many years and have seen the impact of digital technology on medical care. Granted that mercury/analog gauged sphygmomanometer can still deliver a measurement that is reliable for screening and routine tests. When dealing with more critically ill patients that require precise monitoring of body functions, you seldom see analog equipment used. Most of EKG and EEG testing uses digital measurement for precision.

Can it be possible that polygraphy doesn't require precision measurement to be accurate? Is it also possible that the margin of error polygraphic testing  is very broad?

I read you and Dr. Richardson discussing variance, How much variance is excusable?

Fred F. Wink
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #68 - Mar 9th, 2002 at 6:14pm
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Fred,
    So does technology = better? Have you used Windows XP yet?

    However, if the computer and the analog poly both use the same sensors to measure bodily functions, why would the computer be any more accurate?

    And the reason why the HQ I went to didn't have electronic poly's, is because they haven't been budgeted for them yet.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #69 - Mar 10th, 2002 at 5:27am
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Duc748 wrote on Mar 9th, 2002 at 6:14pm:
Fred,
   So does technology = better? Have you used Windows XP yet?

 


Duc748,

I run XP now, I have no problems to report because XP is similiar to NT and thats what OS we run at the job. I do object to having my usage patterns downloaded to Microsoft every day.

The computer may be able to detect smaller nuances in patterns than an analog machine. That is my opinion and it may be wrong as well. Just a thought.

You also made a comment in another post comparing physicians and polygraphers making mistakes and not acheiving 100% accuarcy. Bear in mind that physicians spend 12 years from college to medical school to post graduate internships, residency, and fellowships. A polygrapher is trained in 8-10 weeks, and may or may not be college educated. A physician has to pass state boards to become licensed and also test to become board certified in their chosen specialty. Polygraphers don't have malpratice insurance because before every test they do, they have the examinee sign a RELEASE OF LIABILITY to release them from being responsible for the outcome of the test.

Can you imagine having your personal physician requesting that you sign a release of liability before he examines you, performs surgical procedures, and interprets laboratory and other tests? that is a frightening scenario.

Bottom Line, you can't compare a physician and a polygrapher, there is none

Fred F. Wink
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2002 at 6:55am by Fred F. »  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #70 - Mar 12th, 2002 at 7:08pm
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Fred,

Both the computer and analog polygraph use the same measurement devices.  The computer digitizes the mechanical movements.  Although a computer may measure and calculate for a greater number of inputs/outputs with less cumbersome equipment, there usually is physical data loss within the digitizing process of a mechanical movement.  This loss of data is so minute that it does not effect the end product.

You asked about acceptable variances.  An acceptable variance is based on a subjective criterion that is related to the obtained accuracy of a given method.  If a variance exists but shows minimal adverse results in the overall accuracy, the variance may be considered acceptable.  However, a variance that forgoes or eliminates a process in the confirmation and validation process of the method would most likely render the process invalid.
  

Quam verum decipio nos
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #71 - Mar 13th, 2002 at 6:25am
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J.B. McCloughan wrote on Mar 12th, 2002 at 7:08pm:
An acceptable variance is based on a subjective criterion that is related to the obtained accuracy of a given method.  If a variance exists but shows minimal adverse results in the overall accuracy, the variance may be considered acceptable.  However, a variance that forgoes or eliminates a process in the confirmation and validation process of the method would most likely render the process invalid.



JB,

With the above quote in mind, what are acceptable variances to the polygraph process? Also what is the possibility that the variance can produce a negative effect on the results or alter the validity of the process?


Thanks

Fred F. Wink
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #72 - Mar 13th, 2002 at 10:46am
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This entire thread only supports the total lack of critical thinking that makes the FBI the inept agency that it is (and the type of people that it employs).  I submit that duc748 is the typical non-thinker that makes it so.  I enjoy the contradictions that are pointed out by others, and i find it beyond belief that Duc748 bases his facts on his one experience.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #73 - Mar 13th, 2002 at 10:44pm
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John_F

I couldn't say it any better than that!

I'm starting to doubt the validity of Duc's claims.
Like others have pointed out,  there is the plausible chance that the Duc is a total fraud.  His intent might solely be to scare people off from using effective countermeasures.

Hell...I could claim I'm a 30 year veteran of the FBI for that matter!

But,  getting back to your point John...your statement is a good one (assuming this narrow-minded airhead is truly preparing for a career in the FBI).

It is the narrow-tracked mind that has helped deteriorate the effectiveness of the FBI.

When Duc first entered this board and posted his first message,  he didn't take the time to consider any other people's life experiences but HIS OWN. 

Like a popular fast-food commercial suggests,  "THINK OUTSIDE THE BUN!"


  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #74 - Mar 19th, 2002 at 9:10pm
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George, et al.
I don't understand why a person with no experience taking polygraphs thinks that they will be successful in "fooling" the polygrapher, who is trained and does this eveyday for their  living.   

I can understand (trying to) employing countermeasures if you have been polygraphed and have failed.  At that point, you have nothing to lose by employing coutermeasures.  But what if you incorrectly employed countermeasures and got caught?  At least if you are honest ( with no countermeasures).. you know the result is a bi-product of the machine/polygrapher.. not you.  If you employ countermeasures and fail.. then all you can "blame" is yourself.

I personally do not believe in the polygraph and wish it was not part of the process.
  
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