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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #30 - Feb 28th, 2002 at 11:09pm
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Ahhh.... The bonds of institutionalized thinking....
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #31 - Feb 28th, 2002 at 11:45pm
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Duc748,

Like Drew, I was also an FBI Agent (for nine years).  Seven years into my career, I "failed" a routine national security screening polygraph, which instigated a massive investigation of me which 2 years later ended in a grudging exoneration.  You can read a summary of it on this web site, in the Personal Statement section.

Anyway, you seem to take an uncritical attitude toward polygraphs, thinking that as long as the FBI employs them, you should support that policy, since you are an FBI Agent.

You are not seeing the terrible price of using polygraphs.  Aldrich Ames "passed" his polygraph, and continued to spy thereafter.  Larry Wu Tai Chin "passed" his polygraph, and continued to spy thereafter.  Cuban double agents routed the CIA in the 1980's by beating polygraphs.

Had someone in the FBI had the courage to question the polygraph in my particular case, the FBI would not have wasted 2 years, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, and thousands of man-hours on a fishing expedition.  All those considerable resources could have been used on real cases.  What was the cost of that?  We'll never be able to quantify it, but for every wild goose chase the FBI goes on, criminal enterprises benefit because the FBI is diverted on nonsense.

As an agent, would you want to spend 2 years of your career on an investigation which is premised on a polygraph?  Before doing so, wouldn't it make sense to determine whether this polygraph is valid before devoting all that time and energy?  Unfortunately, the people running my investigation seemed to have an attitude similar to yours, one of uncritical acceptance.

Perhaps you might see that critical thinking is one of the most important qualities of a good investigator.

I wish you good luck in your career.

Mark Mallah

« Last Edit: Mar 1st, 2002 at 12:15am by Mark Mallah »  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #32 - Feb 28th, 2002 at 11:54pm
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I'm commenting on Duc748's posted message of 2/27. I have a problem with your title, "Honesty is better than deception." I agree with that statement, but not in the context of poly. I gave honesty in my poly. answers, I was accused of "deception." Unlike many others who have posted messages here, I have nothing to hide; I have never done anything seriously bad or illegal in my life. I never visited this site prior to my poly. (I wish I had). I was not worried about it. I thought, "you tell the truth, you pass." I really thought that it worked the other way; ie, you always pass if you tell the truth; but sometimes you may lie and still pass. Little did I know. I was totally honest, before, during and after the test. Now, after reading more on this site, I learned that the test was never properly explained to me. I thought that the fact that the examiner kept asking me the same questions meant that my answers were either inconclusive or deceptive. I think that made me worry, when I should not have. I started thinking and analyzing my answers more and more; and I think that gave wrong impressions/answers. I had 2 tests. The first was inconclusive. When I went to my second test, I explained to the examiner that I had known that I was having problems with my answers during the first test because the examiner continued to ask me the same questions. The second examiner never corrected me or advised me that I may not be asked any other questions (other than those discussed prior to the test). When he followed the same procedure in the second test, I really became nervous because, of course, he too kept asking the same questions we had discussed prior to the test. I was going through the test thinking that I was again either giving inconclusive answers and or the answers recorded were deceptive. I don't understand how you defend the poly. I don't understand how you attack this site. It is this site that explained to me the process (not the examiners). Unfortunately, I went on this site too late. This site is meant to educate people. I bet if you had failed the poly. test, you would have taken a different position. Honesty alone does not work. Believe me, I tried it. My honesty led to my labeling as a deceiving person. I'm honest regardless of what a machine said or an examiner thought. The FBI and other agencies have the means to run a thorough background on any person (at least, I hope they do). They should use those means. After all it is the Department of Justice. Justice must be done to all, including the applicants. The poly. test does not do and did not do justice to many, including me. Please rethink your position and put yourself in the shoes of the many innocent people who have been labeled as liars and in many instances criminals as a result of the poly. test.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #33 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 12:32am
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I wanted to add something to my earlier message, something about how this site helps many, including me. Having failed a federal agency's poly. is not something you would like to disclose and or discuss with others. It is not an "honor." People automatically assume that if it is a requirement of the feds, then it must be accurate; and if you failed, then you must have done something horrible. Not so. I have not. Whenever I feel down because of my poly. test (and believe me that happens often because noone has ever attacked my honesty and integrity before as it's been done through the poly. test and its inaccurate results), and because I can't talk about it to anybody since it is embarassing (even my husband asked me following the rejection if I had ever done drugs but never talked about it; I could not believe that my own husband of 15 years doubted me for a second because of the poly. test), I go on this site. I read about others who share my experience and feelings. It helps. In fact, it helps a lot.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #34 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 2:27am
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MissionPoly-ban wrote on Feb 28th, 2002 at 11:02pm:
Duc748:

Are you going to claim that you didn't send the following post?

Duc748
New User
Posts:  12
(No Subject) on:  2/28/02 at 13:52:32

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Netnin:  You are almost as utterly pathetic as the so- called "men" who are running this site.  I find it absolutely entertaining to come see what lousy excuses you liars come up with in each new post that you put out.  To listen to an ex- FBI agent and self-proclaimed "military hero"  try and rationalize why they are helping criminals and liars pass the polygraph test is almost as entertaining as going to the movies.  I seriously doubt the validity of their prior professional  positions.  Like I said,  the only reason one would risk using countermeasures is because they are liars.  Only the truly truthful deserve spots in law enforcement.  Since you have claimed to have used countermeasures to try and pass a polygraph test,  I conclude that you are untruthful and undeserving of any spot on any law enforcement agency.  And to respond to your earlier statement:  No...I wouldn't want someone like you covering my back.

Duc748


The above is a private message sent from the two-faced Duc to myself on 2/28/02.  Some food for thought for those of you who think the Duc is conversing on this board simply for for the sake of an intellectual conversation.  Seems to me like he is using us as his pawns in his game of humor.  

Peace,  
Netnin


Netnin,
    I find your lack of intelligence truely enlightening. Since you have tried to lie once to the board (Gino in particular) and now again, let me tell you the mistake you just made.
    You have attempted to tell people that I sent you that quote from above. However, you neglected to check the number of posts that I have made. Amazingly enough, I have two #12 posts. The one you just made up, and my true post #12 here on this thread which I wrote to Drew at 14:36. Kind of hard to have made a 12th post (according to you) at 13:52. Don't you think?
   Your attempt to fake a quote also tells the members on this board how you feel about them. I have had off topic discussions with Drew and Gino and both know that I don't talk like that.
    I have no need to converse with you further. As an FBI agent, I think you would have failed based on this.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #35 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 2:33am
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[quote author=Drew Richardson
that be the case, let us both be glad you were not employed by the German Gestapo during the time period 1939-1945...
[/quote]

Come on Drew, you're drawing simplistic analogies here, although I see the humor at my expense. And it is funny... ;>)
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #36 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 2:43am
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Duc748

I think that is the absolutely poorest excuse I have heard from you yet in you attempts to cover up the fact that you have insulted everyone and anyone who frequents this board.

Kind of like the pathological liar who continues to make things up until they are backed up against the wall...and then THEY STILL make things up!

Do you think the masses of intelligent people who frequent this board are going to fall for your illogical defense?

Duc...I expected better than that from you.

Quote:
However, you neglected to check the number of posts that I have made. Amazingly enough, I have two #12 posts. The one you just made up, and my true post #12 here on this thread which I wrote to Drew at 14:36. Kind of hard to have made a 12th post (according to you) at 13:52. Don't you think?


Do you really believe that the people that read this board are going to overlook the fact that a PRIVATE MESSAGE is not considered a post/not added in to the "total posts" sum?  

Your 12th post is your 12th post,  and your 13th your 13th.
Private messages aren't considered posts,  and most who use this site are aware of that.  Nice try,  but the people who use this site aren't the pathetic people you claim them to be.

Netnin




  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #37 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:01am
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MissionPoly-ban wrote on Mar 1st, 2002 at 2:43am:
Duc748

I think that is the absolutely poorest excuse I have heard from you yet in you attempts to cover up the fact that you have insulted everyone and anyone who frequents this board.

Kind of like the pathological liar who continues to make things up until they are backed up against the wall...and then THEY STILL make things up!

Do you think the masses of intelligent people who frequent this board are going to fall for your illogical defense?

Duc...I expected better than that from you.

Do you really believe that the people that read this board are going to overlook the fact that a PRIVATE MESSAGE is not considered a post/not added in to the "total posts" sum?  

Your 12th post is your 12th post,  and your 13th your 13th.
Private messages aren't considered posts,  and most who use this site are aware of that.  Nice try,  but the people who use this site aren't the pathetic people you claim them to be.

Netnin


I know I said I wouldn't converse withyou any further, but feel the need to explain so you can understand...

Okay, let me try to explain in simpler terms for you since my last attempt was to complicated.

You say that I wrote something to you via private message bashing people on this board. However, in your attempt to brand me with your lie, you put down that I had 12 posts on this board with a time of 13:52:32. See below and look at the time and # of posts:

Quote:
Are you going to claim that you didn't send the following post?

Duc748
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Posts:  12
(No Subject) on:  2/28/02 at 13:52:32

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     Netnin:  You are almost as utterly pathetic as the so- called "men" who are running this site.  I find it absolutely entertaining to come see what lousy excuses you liars come up with in each new post that you put out.  To listen to an ex- FBI agent and self-proclaimed "military hero"  try and rationalize..."


However, my 12th post didn't occur until my message to Drew at time  « Reply #27 on: 02/28/02 at 14:36:16 ».

So how, according to you, could I have 12 posts 44 minutes prior to my 12th post. You screwed up and it's hard to defeat hard, cold facts.

You lied, tried to cover it up with another lie, but you've been caught and everyone here sees it. Stop the lying and just leave. You have a problem.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #38 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:14am
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Quote:
Like Drew, I was also an FBI Agent (for nine years).  Seven years into my career, I "failed" a routine national security screening polygraph, which instigated a massive investigation of me which 2 years later ended in a grudging exoneration.


Mark,
     As I don't know you, I really don't know what to say. I think polygraphs for "pre-screening" applicants is one thing, and polygraphs for individuals with many years of experience is another. Typically, pre-screening polygraphs are for individuals like myself. People that have never had a polygraph before and attempting to join an LE organization. We have no experience with the federal LE agencies. I think the poygraph has a place for individuals like myself in helping to "weed-out" certain individuals. I'm not going to go into the politics of possible racism or anything of the such, as I can't discuss issues like that with any knowledge.
    I can only talk about "my" experience with the system. As time goes on, I'm sure I'll learn more, but for now I can only go on what I know. I believe that the honest will pass the poly and those like Netnin will fail.
    Your troubles sound familiar to those of CDR. Dick Marcinko, founder of Seal Team 6 and Red Cell. Investigated for many years by the government, but nothing was ever found on him. They created charges of theft (at least that's his side of the story) of a case of grenades and sent him to a federal pen for a couple of years.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #39 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:28am
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Fightback,
     I can empathize with you and glad you have found other people to help you cope with your situation. I think this site has a positive side to go along with the "potential" negative side.
     You and everyone here knows that the knowledge gained from the book advertised will be used by individuals who should not be in federal LE positions. These are the people that have done illegal things in the past and are attempting to deceive the government.
     I too was very nervous when taking my poly. That's normal. However, a polygrapher is supposed to "dial out" that nervousness. The polygrapher showed me all 6 of my paper tests and I could clearly see my heart rate/breathing/sweat lines on the paper. As the tests moved on, my lines became smoother and smoother, as I calmed and relaxed.
     I'm sorry for your poly experience. My only intent with this thread is to show that honest people can pass the poly and that I feel you should not use countermeasures if you truely have nothing to hide.
     This doesn't mean I'm calling anyone a liar. It's just my point of view. Nothing more and nothing less.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #40 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:44am
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Duc748,

Earlier today I was somewhat upset at the fact that Netnin claimed you sent him an inappropiate mail regarding the administrators and users of this site, but upon closer scrutiny
one can see you have been falsely accused.

The #12 Post and all that makes sense as your defense, but the thing that jumped at me was the fact that in your supposed instant message, you signed your name at the end "Duc748".  But in your style of writing you have never signed any of your posts with your name at the end. Netnin on the the other hand does....

This looks like an open and shut case.

Live long and prosper
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #41 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:50am
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Liar-Liar,
    Yes, some people really do lie, then attempt to cover it up, only to be caught in another lie.
    Maybe we can ask Netnin to submit to a polygraph on this? ;>) I think we would all see what a polygraph is supposed to look like with him.
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #42 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 4:51am
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Is it me, or is this the hottest topic going?
  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #43 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 5:44am
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DUC 748

I too believe in being honest all the times.

I have some questions that I wish you to answer truthfully:

1. How did you hear of this site?
2. Did anyone direct you to this site? If so, who?
3. Why would a new hire, who just passed a polygraph, come  on this site and extol the virtues of the polygraph when you know nothing of the operation of the machine or it's operators? It seems to me you should be preparing for your new job instead of spending so much time defending the polygraph.
4. Is your new job a polygrapher for the Feds?

5. Will you answer every question truthfully?

Personal statement:   My hobby has been exposing government corruption at city, county, state and federal levels. In my retirement years I find a lot time to work on this. I exposed lies and corruption in the polygraph industry, private employment sector, in the late 1970's. My daughter took an employment polygraph and one of the questions was "have you ever used drugs? She answered yes. (she smoked pot 3 or 4 times before I caughter her and was deathly afraid to do it again) The polygrapher flunked her and labeled her a liar. The company hired her because she was truthful and NEVER used a polygraph again. BTW, she made them an excellent employee.

TRUTHFULLY your posts sounds exactly like a ploygrapher (or wannabe) attempting to discredit this site and those who use countermeasures to protect themselves. There is too much scientific evidence against this machine and operators for people like you to succeed.

  
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Re: Honesty is better than deception
Reply #44 - Mar 1st, 2002 at 6:22am
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Quote:
1. How did you hear of this site?

I typed in polygraph on yahoo prior to my polygraph. This and the polygraphpalace were two sites that came up.

Quote:
2. Did anyone direct you to this site? If so, who?

As I said, I typed in polygraph on yahoo. No one directed me to the site.

Quote:
3. Why would a new hire, who just passed a polygraph, come  on this site and extol the virtues of the polygraph when you know nothing of the operation of the machine or it's operators? It seems to me you should be preparing for your new job instead of spending so much time defending the polygraph.

I am expressing my point of view on the process. Should I be censored for this? There maybe some individuals who are getting ready for the polygraph, that get on the internet, come across this site, then become terrified of the polygraph. I want those people to realize that you can pass the polygraph and that countermeasures don't need to be used.

Quote:
4. Is your new job a polygrapher for the Feds?

No. Nor do I want such a position. To boring in my point of view.
My poly was just passed and now it's a matter of waiting on the background investigation before I get my class date. I've had 2 SSBI's in the past already, for my current clearance, so this is pretty mucha non-issue to me.

Quote:
5. Will you answer every question truthfully?

I just did.

Quote:
TRUTHFULLY your posts sounds exactly like a ploygrapher (or wannabe) attempting to discredit this site and those who use countermeasures to protect themselves.

Sorry. I'm not here to discredit the site. Knowledge is a good thing and I find this site interesting, personal points of view aside.
You won't find any gov't conspiracy here.
  
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