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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge (Read 373856 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #225 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 8:29pm
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Uiop wrote:
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I would expect you would be encouraging such a lawsuit so your legal merits could shine through.  I feel this is not the case.  I think a lawsuit would bring this site and many of the true named supporters under some unwelcome scrutiny.    


Get out the microscope and put me on a slide.     Grin
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #226 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 11:12pm
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I concur Brandon ..... !!! Smiley 

Let the light shine in, The defense team on this lawsuit would have way too much fun !!! Because opinions and conjecture are easily defeated, just like a polygraph, and watching the cockroaches scurry for darkness out of the light would be an interesting imperical exercise. Thanks George for getting this thread back on track .... And the challenge goes on !!   

EJ ..... Facts, their is no substitute !!!
  

Theory into Reality !!
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #227 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 12:21am
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Ahh, George.  Degrading yourself to such a level rather than defend your position?   

Brandon.  No meaningful input from you either?  I'm surprised.   

Eos.  Try a grammar class.  You may find it useful.   

Nonombre:  Why waste anymore time?   



  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #228 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 2:10am
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uiop wrote on Sep 6th, 2005 at 12:21am:
Ahh, George.  Degrading yourself to such a level rather than defend your position?  

Brandon.  No meaningful input from you either?  I'm surprised.  

Eos.  Try a grammar class.  You may find it useful.   

Nonombre:  Why waste anymore time?  





I cannot understand for the life of me why you and nonombre make light of a very hurtful situation and even more so defend a completely useless device.  Just because your personal  career was not derailed or you weren't personally slandered does not mean that your system is perfect.   Your lack of empathy speaks volumes.   You and nonombre are the type of individuals who fail to think outside of the box - that because something was not written in a textbook and your experiences were  favorably similar to those in the textbook - that anything else would be completely incredible.   

But I guess that's just human nature - to believe only in  those experiences we go through. 
Remember, even those people  living in the Hitlerian era believed that it was right to kill people of other ethnicities - because the government preached to it and so the great majority of the people thought it was right.  Did it make it right?  The truth is that even then, very few people thought outside of the box - either because they were afraid or because they actually believed that because the government implemented this rule, it must be right.  I think the latter is your way of thinking.

And yes, do tell Nonombre not to waste his time because after what we've been through (some more than others) it's a no-win situation.   
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #229 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 5:17am
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OK Uiop, you dragged me in, even if for only a moment.  For myself personally, I have nothing to hide.  Thus my willingness to use my real name and post experiences which can easily identify me, at least to those who practice polygraphy.  You are addressing a portion of the information available on this site as if it was chapter 12 of the Anarchist's Cookbook.  This site does not provide information which diagrams bomb-building, etc.  That clearly is not the case.  Would you be hopeful for legal action against sites which publish information about ammunition re-loading.  Surely that information could be viewed and implemented by persons of an unsavory nature.  It would seem that the large argument is that information which places polygraphy under scrutiny is available and that is just fine.  Until it is condensed so as to eliminate the vast research time necessary by individuals.

Such a lawsuit against this site would be quickly quashed.  Seems I remember some little something about FREEDOM OF SPEECH.  It is not as if we are in a crowded theatre yelling fire or an airplane yelling bomb.  If you so much prefer totalitarian rule perhaps you would be better suited in a country such as North Korea.  There are plenty of things I do not like that are protected by freedom of speech.  But you cannot have it both ways.

I like the example Nonombre provided of the killed twelve year old girl.  The scum bag got away because he employed counter measures learned on the internet, more specifically Antipolygraph.org (as I would assume was the meaning).  Well, maybe if you looked into his past the trigger that brought out and awakened this behavior was pornography.  But wait that is protected also.  So by that the mother would also be entitled to sue anyone who has ever purchased smut because they are supporters.

So you see, while there is the possiblity of a lawsuit your point is leaning heavily toward ridiculous nonsense.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #230 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 9:50am
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uiop wrote on Sep 6th, 2005 at 12:21am:
Ahh, George.  Degrading yourself to such a level rather than defend your position?


Uiop,

I do not see how I have in any way degraded myself. It should be abundantly clear that fear of lawsuits has not and will not deter AntiPolygraph.org from making the truth about polygraphs publicly known.

I note that you have not responded to the question that I put to you on 4 September 2005:

Quote:
To what studies do you refer? The peer-reviewed literature (see studies by Honts and others, abstracts provided in the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) showed that even experienced examiners were unable to detect countermeasures at better-than-chance levels of accuracy.


As of today, 1,317 days have passed since Dr. Richardson issued his polygraph countermeasure challenge.
  

George W. Maschke
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #231 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 4:25pm
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I think that a civil trial would cast far too much light on the polygraph for it to survive.  If the essence of the lawsuit would be that this site is liable for providing information on how to “beat” a polygraph it would logically raise certain questions which would have to be answered before a verdict could be rendered:

1.      How accurate is the polygraph to begin with?

2.      How effective are the countermeasures listed on the web site?  How effectively can their use be detected?

3.      Do guilty people ever pass the polygraph without using countermeasures (false negatives)?

4.      Do innocent people ever fail the polygraph (false positives)?

5.      Is there any other source for the information listed on this site?

I believe that in any trial where the above questions are brought up, the house of cards that is the polygraph would have a difficult time surviving.  

A trial would not permit polygraph examiners the kind of control they have over other public appearances, such as when Ed Gelb appears on various TV shows to utilize the polygraph in an atmosphere where it is presumed to be 100% accurate.  There would be hard questions that would have to be answered.

I think one of the most convincing arguments this site could present, and one that the jury would absolutely love, would be people like me on the witness stand, telling about the three false positives I experienced while applying to be a police officer.  Three polygraphs I failed despite telling the complete truth on each one and despite not even knowing what a countermeasure was at the time, much less attempt to use one.  Three polygraph tests in which the examiner solemnly told me that they, and not the machine, were the true “lie detectors” and that there was no hope of getting away with telling a lie in their presence. 

At the end of my testimony I’m sure I would be asked if, in my experience, the polygraph is accurate.  I would be able to sit there as a experienced and decorated police sergeant and Army veteran and swear under oath that I was telling the complete truth in all four of my polygraphs, but the examiners apparently couldn’t discern that so I failed my first three.  Not only do I not believe the polygraph is accurate, I know from personal experience it is not.  I am experienced in courtroom testimony.  The jury would believe me.

I’m sure George could find many, many others much more qualified than I who would also be eager to give their side of the story to the jury.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Johnn
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #232 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 6:05pm
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Sergeant1107 wrote on Sep 6th, 2005 at 4:25pm:
I3.   
4.      Do innocent people ever fail the polygraph (false positives)?



Angry  Yes - use me as the living proof of a guinea pig
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #233 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 9:38pm
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Yes,

I was falsely accused of using countermeasures.   Even the "countermeasure" countermeasures are unreliable.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box El_Gringo_Pao
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Me carga a la polygraph...Exa
miners live a lie!!!

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #234 - Nov 12th, 2005 at 5:04pm
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    Im willing to fight against the usage of this damn machine.
Because of this "detector of LIES" my family has been torn apart, and my reputation ruined. Angry
  

J.W._El_Gringo@hotmail.com
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #235 - Dec 2nd, 2005 at 9:18am
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Dear All,

Uiop and Nonombre are hardly the first polygraph supporters to publicly fantasize about a lawsuit being filed against AntiPolygraph.org. But perhaps our pro-polygraph friends should be careful what they wish for. Because of the significant 1st Amendment issues involved, any such lawsuit could very well result in the spotlight of national media attention being focused on some very dark corners of polygraph practice.

I wish someone would shine the light Gorge. That would help the good examiners and weed out the bad ones.

I will defend your right to say what ever you want and hope you will do the same for me. A lot of valid points are made here. I should thank you.

you guys helped me through polygraph school, and are helping me aviod mistakes that other examiners make.

I find most on this forum have great ideas and should be listened to. You seem to be willing to listen, so am I. lets learn from eachother people and have some adult debate.

Anyone with me?

In the meantime, as of today, Dr. Richardson's challenge has gone 1,316 days without takers...

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #236 - Dec 9th, 2005 at 7:18pm
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El_Gringo_Pao wrote on Nov 12th, 2005 at 5:04pm:
   Im willing to fight against the usage of this damn machine.
Because of this "detector of LIES" my family has been torn apart, and my reputation ruined. Angry


El_Gringo_Pao,


   you can truly fight this machine by not voluntarily subjecting yourself to this pseudo science called polygraphy.  there are other means of finding the truth, with factual evidence and thorough investigations.  not reliance on a box with wires running out of it, especially when an examiner who puts his/her total faith in this box.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Trooper
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #237 - Dec 17th, 2005 at 6:21pm
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What kind of sedatives are helpful in producing a truthful chart?

What amounts of those sedatives should be taken?

How long prior to the exam should those be taken?

What affect will those sedatives have?

Will the polygrapher know that sedatives have been taken?

Last, is it true that a Florida examiner has to rule either "pass" or "fail".  I was told that "inconclusives" don't exist there. 

Thank you!
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #238 - Dec 17th, 2005 at 8:19pm
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I wonder if Uiop and Nonombre could ever pass a polygraph?  Would they use the same type of deception as they use on others?  Would two deceptions cancel each other out?  How does one truly become a polygraph examiner, or why would someone become one for that matter?  I guess these questions are imponderables only to be guessed at.  If we would get answers, we would have to question if there was deception indicated.      Shocked
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #239 - Dec 17th, 2005 at 10:14pm
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Trooper wrote on Dec 17th, 2005 at 6:21pm:
What kind of sedatives are helpful in producing a truthful chart?

What amounts of those sedatives should be taken?

How long prior to the exam should those be taken?

What affect will those sedatives have?

Will the polygrapher know that sedatives have been taken?

Last, is it true that a Florida examiner has to rule either "pass" or "fail".  I was told that "inconclusives" don't exist there. 

Thank you!


Trooper,

Because the most commonly used polygraph technique, the so-called "Control Question Test," is scored by comparing the examinee's reactions to relevant questions to his/her reactions to "control" questions, and not on the basis of the examinee's overall level of reactivity, it is doubtful that sedatives would do much to help one to pass it. See Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for an explanation of polygraph procedure, and Chapter 4 for an explanation of how to pass.

For future reference, note that it would have been more appropriate to have started a new message thread to post your question, rather than posting it in an unrelated message thread. You can do so by clicking on the "Start new topic" link near the top of message lists.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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