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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge (Read 373682 times)
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #210 - Sep 4th, 2005 at 10:27pm
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Twoblock.  I think your "question" is an attempt at baiting, which may be the reason why you have no response from Nonombre. In regard to your other question about my outlining actionable information or content, please refer to my previous postings.  In regard to your statement of "catching countermeasures being pure chance", refer to studies produced prior to 2001 which discussed this issue and also to the latest edition of "The lie behind the lie detector" which advises not using the anal spincter as a countermeasure.  So, if catching countermeasures is pure chance, this seems to be an interesting update to the material.   

regards,

  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #211 - Sep 4th, 2005 at 10:45pm
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uiop,

To what studies do you refer? The peer-reviewed literature (see studies by Honts and others, abstracts provided in the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) showed that even experienced examiners were unable to detect countermeasures at better-than-chance levels of accuracy.
  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #212 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 12:07am
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uiop

If I am baiting, it is baiting for intellegent answers to valid questions. 

I was on my college debate team. I won a very large percentage of my debates by giving intellegent answers to EVERY question asked and covering every aspect of the debate. If the other side refused/coundn't answer portions of the subject matter, they lost.

You made a statement, more tha once, about this site being sued. Surely you have a reason for making that statement. It struck me that you might have heard something to that effect or that you read something here that caused you to make that statement. You don't have to be a lawyer or know one iota about the law to give your reason for making that statement. So don't use that as a crutch.

As I stated, nonombre and other polygraphers has bragged that they will catch anyone using countermeasures. If that is so, doesn't it render countermeasure information on this site moot? If the info is useless then why do they constantly rail against George and this website? As I remember, one polygrapher did say "send them to us, George, and we will catch them". If he can, then give him a mark on the blackboard.

uiop, there is nothing in this post that requires legal knowledge to answer. Therefore, if you care to respond, please don't use "political sidestep".

There was a polygrapher that posted on this site, a long time ago, that I admired. His handle was Public Servant. He debated from the vest. I even offered him a moose hunt in Alaska. He put forth his side of the debate and left. He didn't continue to rail against  George and this site.



  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #213 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 2:23am
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Twoblock wrote on Sep 5th, 2005 at 12:07am:
uiop

You made a statement, more tha once, about this site being sued. Surely you have a reason for making that statement. It struck me that you might have heard something to that effect or that you read something here that caused you to make that statement. You don't have to be a lawyer or know one iota about the law to give your reason for making that statement. So don't use that as a crutch.

As I stated, nonombre and other polygraphers has bragged that they will catch anyone using countermeasures. If that is so, doesn't it render countermeasure information on this site moot? If the info is useless then why do they constantly rail against George and this website? As I remember, one polygrapher did say "send them to us, George, and we will catch them". If he can, then give him a mark on the blackboard.

uiop, there is nothing in this post that requires legal knowledge to answer. Therefore, if you care to respond, please don't use "political sidestep".


Twoblock,

If I may, please allow me to jump into the discussion and make a couple of points:

#1.  I never "bragged" that I will catch anyone using countermeasures.  In fact, I am sure that I have probably been "beat" more than once.  I will tell you this however.  I have caught a good number of people attempting the countermeasures taught on this site and when I catch them, they lose the very thing they were attempting to gain (job, plea agreement, etc).  Sooo, my message to anyone in my testing room who might be looking to attempt the measures taught on this site is best put in the words of one of my favorite movie stars..."You feel lucky....Punk?"

#2.  I have no information about anybody  (government or private) getting ready to sue this site.  I know what I was trying to put across (and I think uiop as well) is that in this country, anybody can sue anyone at any time over anything and stand a good chance of winning.

Remember the old lady who sued McDonald's because the coffee was to hot and scalded her?  How about the NYC mugger who sued because he had been shot by a prostate NYC transit policeman he (the mugger) was literally beating the crap out of?  The civil court ruled he should have been allowed to finish the beating and leave without having to fear being shot by the victim he was beating senseless. 

Fact is, court records are literally STUFFED with examples of people who sued and won over some of the most insane things.

Now consider this:  The mother of a dead 12 year old girl who sues Anti-polygraph.org because the perpetrator (a convicted sex offender) learned how to "beat" his post conviction exam with the material downloaded from this site.

Ah, but "Wait" says the lawyer representing Maschke and company.  If the local government had not relied on this "pseudo science," this perp would have never been given a test he could "beat" so easily.

The government puts Mr. Polygraph examiner on the stand who promptly produces reams of information gleaned from other sex offenders who apparently did not discover this "public service" website.  They did not learn how to "beat" a polygraph so easily.  In their cases, they appropriately failed their exams, confessed to all the ugly stuff they were doing, and were promptly stuffed back into jail cells where they belonged (and before they could hurt anyone else).

All but one it seems.  The animal that raped and murdered this poor 12-year-old girl...He was "educated."  He learned well.  Mr sex offender was a good 'poster child" for this "public service" website.

Now the question I have is a simple one.  If an old lady can sue McDonalds for millions of dollars over hot coffee?  I mean, McDonalds never "intentionally" planned on hurting the old woman.  they had no prior knowledge, no plan of action.  They just served her hot coffee, the way everyone wants it.

Oh, but Anti-polygraph.org is a very different story indeed. The actions they take, the material they provide, is quite intentional indeed.  They know EXACTLY what they are doing.  They have even admitted many, many, times that they are FULLY AWARE this material may and in fact HAS fallen into the wrong hands.  But that is "okay," for they are performing (in their eyes) a public service for the greater good.  They are simply exercising their "freedom of speech."

Tell that to the mother of a dead little girl...

Yes my friends, this lawsuit is most definately coming.  I feel it in my bones.  Maybe the fact that Mr. Maschke resides out of the country will provide him some protection.  Maybe not...

Regards,

Nonombre


  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #214 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 3:13am
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NoNombre,

I would expect responses like this from no brain cretons or from inept and callious people to resort to legal challenges. Likewise scared and pompous examiners trying to scare folks not to believe what george and company have provided. Lets see this web site is hosted in Canada and again free to all. Whats wrong mr psychophysiologist, this site doing you and the voodoo you do into ground. LIke anything produced in the free world it has both dark and light capabilities .... anything built for honest purposes can be used for dark and evil things ....  Its a risk that a free society must endure. You and the rest of your interrogators must be feeling the heat knowing that you better start thinking of new careers. Oh I can think of one, "Would you like fries with that shake ", McD's is always hiring.  Because its about the only thing your most likely qualified for. Next time in a war of wits please come armed, and again the counter measures work, too bad you just can't detect them.   EJ .... Facts there is no substitute
  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #215 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 3:57am
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nonombre

# 1. Maybe "bragged" was a tiny bit strong in your case but, in your posts you were rather "upbeat" about your ability to detect countermeasures. Others have openly bragged.

#2. I didn't include you in this statement. It was uiop that made the statement. I agree that lawsuits may be brought against anyone for far almost anything, but why wouldn't you and uiop include Doug Williams since his for profit website was offering this info years before this site was in existance? There are other websites also. This and other reasons is why I maintain that legal action against this site wouldn't make it to the discovery stage.

As re: to what I would say to your example woman whos 12 yr. old daughter was raped and murdered by a scumbag pervert who beat the machine and its operator, "sue the hell out of the state parole office, the PO and the poly operator for stupidly putting so much faith in a machine that can be easily beaten.

The polygraph community would be illadvised to get involved in such a lawsuit. I can "feel it in my bones" that would be the death of the polygraph.

You haven't responded to an important question. That is what percentage accuracy you would put on detecting countermeasures; 50, 70, 80, 90 %? Surely you wouldn't say 100%. If you say 80% or above, wouldn't that make the info on this site useless?

If I have missed responding to anything, please call me on it.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #216 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 4:12am
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You made a statement, more tha once, about this site being sued. Surely you have a reason for making that statement. It struck me that you might have heard something to that effect or that you read something here that caused you to make that statement. You don't have to be a lawyer or know one iota about the law to give your reason for making that statement. So don't use that as a crutch.

uiop, there is nothing in this post that requires legal knowledge to answer. Therefore, if you care to respond, please don't use "political sidestep".


Forgive me if I misunderstood your question.  Bear with my.  If you are asking for my reason as to why I think this site willbe sued, I'll state the obvious.  This site produces information, regardless of the larger debate of accuracy of polygraph, which will eventually (frankly I'm surprised it hasn't yet) come to the attention of a victims family.  Then and there, an attorney will sue on behalf of his client and their family.  It's not hard to see that.  Am I aware of such a situation?  No.  Is that clear enough?  I will continue not to reason actionable aspects of the case as the Law is not my expertise.  I assure you there was no "political sidestep"  or use of a crutch involved.  Merely I will not debate the law as I don't posess an adequate legal background.   

regards,

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #217 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 4:21am
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Twoblock wrote on Sep 5th, 2005 at 3:57am:
nonombre

# 1. Maybe "bragged" was a tiny bit strong in your case but, in your posts you were rather "upbeat" about your ability to detect countermeasures. Others have openly bragged.

#2. I didn't include you in this statement. It was uiop that made the statement. I agree that lawsuits may be brought against anyone for far almost anything, but why wouldn't you and uiop include Doug Williams since his for profit website was offering this info years before this site was in existance? There are other websites also. This and other reasons is why I maintain that legal action against this site wouldn't make it to the discovery stage.

As re: to what I would say to your example woman whos 12 yr. old daughter was raped and murdered by a scumbag pervert who beat the machine and its operator, "sue the hell out of the state parole office, the PO and the poly operator for stupidly putting so much faith in a machine that can be easily beaten.

The polygraph community would be illadvised to get involved in such a lawsuit. I can "feel it in my bones" that would be the death of the polygraph.

You haven't responded to an important question. That is what percentage accuracy you would put on detecting countermeasures; 50, 70, 80, 90 %? Surely you wouldn't say 100%. If you say 80% or above, wouldn't that make the info on this site useless?

If I have missed responding to anything, please call me on it.


Twoblock,

Thank you for responding.  I much prefer debating you over the mindless likes of EosJupiter and others of his caliber.

I guess I should get right to your question.  My answer is I truly don't know the percentage of success in detecting countermeasures.  I am not sure how anyone would know.  I am willing to admit it is probably not 100%.  I do believe very strongly based on my personal experience that we catch a large percentage, even the vast majority.  Truth is though, I really don't know...Sad

So I guess that based on a motivational standpoint, this reality probably serves to separate our population back into two groups.  The guilty will probably feel they have nothing to lose by attempting countermeasures...

The innocent will wonder if they should "throw the dice."

I would advise them not to.

'nough said...

Nonombre

   
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #218 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:21am
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Dog gone it, nonombre, you finally cut through the fog on one point. You believe that you catch a vast majority. You should believe in what you're doing. Otherwise you're just satisfied with drawing a paycheck. However you didn't touch the other questions. Importantly, your problem with this site. Do you really think the info herein contained is useful to a criminal? If I was confident in my ability I would enjoy my "catch'em & wreck'em workshop. I would say send'em on down. On the other hand if I believed the info was useful enough to beat me even 20% of the time, as a polygrapher I would be worried to hell and back. I would request to go back the beat. I just can't tolerate 80% efficiency from me or anyone else. And when it comes to wrecking some innocent person's job opportunity --- hell I won't even go there now. It's almost my bedtime.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #219 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:57am
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Twoblock wrote on Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:21am:
--- hell I won't even go there now. It's almost my bedtime.


Good night Twoblock and sweet dreams.  More debate tomorrow, I'm sure...

Nonombre

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #220 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 6:45am
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Nonombre

Caliber, well I usually prefer .50 depleted uranium rounds, but thats a story for another night. Lets see, you seem to need a refresher in constitutional law, and please do pay attention, as some of the words may be either to big or too painful for you to handle.

Amendment IV 
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. 

The part that directly relates to polygraph exams is:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons


Article V:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. 

Heres is the important part: 

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

The polygraph by shear intent and use, and by signing any of the waivers involved in the examinations circumvents these 2 protections. And you polygraphers enjoy the fact that most subjects have no idea what their rights are. So now pay attention, mr polygrapher this may elude you, in employing a polygraph, not only are you invading the security of my person, but you are trying to get me to incriminate myself and denying me, my liberties. This includes unreasonable search. This also applies to pre-employment polygraphs as well, when they were outlawed in the US, the Courts directly quoted the 4th and 5th Amendments.  And if I sound like a lawyer, I will let you decide, but I will soon finish law school, and, I plan on being a defense lawyer, and for good or bad everyone is entitled to a competent and thorough defense. And I will be damned if anyone of my clients will ever be advised to to take a polygraph or if they do, they will  be forarmed and advised to use CM's 
Now lets see what caliber you are .... 

So when I pull up in my Lexus and order a cheese burger, please do have it hot at the pick up window.

EJ......  Facts their is no substitute 

 

  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #221 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 10:03am
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Dear All,

Uiop and Nonombre are hardly the first polygraph supporters to publicly fantasize about a lawsuit being filed against AntiPolygraph.org. But perhaps our pro-polygraph friends should be careful what they wish for. Because of the significant 1st Amendment issues involved, any such lawsuit could very well result in the spotlight of national media attention being focused on some very dark corners of polygraph practice.

In the meantime, as of today, Dr. Richardson's challenge has gone 1,316 days without takers...
  

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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #222 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:03pm
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George,  Your warning against a wish for a lawsuit was telling.   

I would expect you would be encouraging such a lawsuit so your legal merits could shine through.  I feel this is not the case.  I think a lawsuit would bring this site and many of the true named supporters under some unwelcome scrutiny.   
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #223 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 6:14pm
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uiop wrote on Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:03pm:
George,  Your warning against a wish for a lawsuit was telling.   

I would expect you would be encouraging such a lawsuit so your legal merits could shine through.  I feel this is not the case.  I think a lawsuit would bring this site and many of the true named supporters under some unwelcome scrutiny.   


So sue me. Wink
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #224 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 8:27pm
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EosJupiter wrote on Sep 5th, 2005 at 6:45am:
Nonombre

Caliber, well I usually prefer .50 depleted uranium rounds, but thats a story for another night. Lets see, you seem to need a refresher in constitutional law, and please do pay attention, as some of the words may be either to big or too painful for you to handle....

...And if I sound like a lawyer, I will let you decide, but I will soon finish law school, and, I plan on being a defense lawyer, and for good or bad everyone is entitled to a competent and thorough defense. And I will be damned if anyone of my clients will ever be advised to to take a polygraph or if they do, they will  be forarmed and advised to use CM's 

Now lets see what caliber you are .... 

So when I pull up in my Lexus and order a cheese burger, please do have it hot at the pick up window. 



Mr. EosJupiter, what is your position on client control?

Good luck on your bar exam.

Nonombre
  
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