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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge (Read 366467 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sluggo
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #165 - Feb 19th, 2005 at 3:46am
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If what you say is true, that's a reflection of the poly community, and that makes it a non-honorary profession.

That's just more ammo as to why polys shouldn't be used.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #166 - Feb 19th, 2005 at 5:39am
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anythingformoney wrote on Feb 19th, 2005 at 2:18am:
Very peculiar that you would fail any polygraph that YOU paid to have done.  I have seen the questions used by hired examiners, and they don't often adequately address the relevant issue(s).  Hired polygraphers have a vested interest in PASSING those who hire them, so you obviously weren't getting your money's worth.

Finally, when you paid some more money, you got a hired gun to actually "clear" you, which is what I've seen hired polygraphers do with guilty defendants.  I'm not saying you were guilty of anything; I just find it curious that your hired gun didn't do the job he was paid to do.


So basically you are discrediting your profession even more then it already is? If a polygrpaher based himself on integrity why would it matter who pays for the exam?

I agree with sluggo.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #167 - Feb 19th, 2005 at 5:59am
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Actually, Sluggo, perhaps you misunderstand or perhaps I just didn't say enough.  When a polygrapher prepares for a polygraph, he or she first speaks with the detective or investigator in charge of the case.  Before that time, the polygrapher usually knows nothing about the case.  Because a criminal polygraph is what they call a "single issue" test (unlike a screening polygraph where there are usually multiple issues), the polygrapher asks the detective or investigator what the most important issues is.  The most important issue might be whether the suspect touched that child's private parts.  The single issue, then, is addressed in a question such as, "Did you touch that boy's thingy?" or "Did you touch that girl's vagina?"  A single issue polygraph is very, very focused, always on what the detective or investigator feels is the MOST important issue.  The detective or investigator tells the polygrapher which most important question, based on the evidence, needs to be addressed in the polygraph.

When people hire a private polygrapher--someone who freelances as a polygrapher, perhaps after his or her retirement--THEY play the part of the detective or investigator.  THEY provide the polygrapher with the issue THEY want addressed.  In the case of a defendant, the defense attorney requesting the exam plays that very important part.  The attorney provides the issue to the polygrapher.  Remember, the hired polygrapher doesn't know the case beforehand.  In fact, the hired polygrapher often simply does an exam addressing the issue provided, and the chips fall where they may.

So you see, when a polygrapher is provided an issue to address which is NOT the strongest issue that should be addressed, then the examinee may pass the polygraph.  For example, in the above example, instead of being provided with "Did you touch that boy's thingy?" the attorney might tell the polygrapher that the question should be "Did you force that boy to have sex?"  Either act is a crime, right?  But a defendant can easily rationalize his way out of the latter question if "all" he did was touch that boy's thingy, rather than engage in penetration with the child.

It is very, very important that the strongest issue be addressed.  People are fascinating creatures.  They can rationalize or justify just about anything, so it is important that, when the issue is addressed by the polygrapher, it be the strongest and most important issue possible.

What Gino, George and others without experience don't know because they haven't been there is that very often when a person produces a false negative it is not because the polygraph didn't work, but because the correct issue was simply never addressed.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2005 at 6:39am by »  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #168 - Feb 19th, 2005 at 10:08am
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Basically you are saying that the polygrapher is not a cognitively thinking person, but one who readily takes orders?  If the examiner cannot develop the questions, what business does he or she have asking the questions?  Are polygraphers not investigators?  Or is it that polygraphers are asking questions without basis?  It would seem to me that polygraphers are goats to true investigtion, providing direction is whatever manner they are directed.  Science is not a truly descriptive word for polygraphy, rather hypothesis.  You can guess to your heart's content.  But guessing is truly no more than opinion (i.e. bullshit).  My polygraphister ( I love that because it is humorous and true) must only have been guessing.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #169 - Feb 19th, 2005 at 5:31pm
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The polygrapher is NOT the investigator.  The polygrapher must approach the exam with a non-biased attitude, not caring whether the examinee passes the exam or not.

If the polygrapher were also the case officer, that would be a serious conflict of interest, don't you think?

While the polygrapher words the actual questions, the issues are really decided by the detective or the investigator, with defense attorneys playing that part in a private exam.  The results of such an exam, it is agreed, will not be reported UNLESS the defendant passes the exam.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #170 - Apr 18th, 2005 at 1:18am
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Roll Eyes

I hope everyone is getting to enjoy this beautiful weather we're having rather than sitting in front of the computer writing a paper for college like myself.

However, I feel I must put my young two cents in.  How can people stand for something and say it's just without justifying it.  Actions speak much louder than words, I'm tired of hearing talk by politicians and Fox5.  Even Bill Mauer's 'Real Talk' portrays his propaganda.  I agree with most of it, but why is it so hard to get a straight answer from anyone interviewed on CSPAN.  Which I might add is the most unbiased media aired today.  Politicians avoid subjects like the one's expressed in this site out of fear.  Aren't the selfish men we've elected because we didn't have a good choice supposed to inflict justice? So why is this not an issue in the media?  Why was Fox5 talking a couple weeks back about Terry Schiavo's mother and her simple followers trying to make it in the supreme court? Why haven't they brought this issue up? This is all just my opinion and it must not mean much to you elder folks.  I'm after all just 22.  But it seems to me that through my research that polygraphing isn't a 100% thing.  How come in 1992 Dr. Lykken of Minnesota concluded from his studies that more than half of rape VICTIMS failed polygraphs recalling their own cases?  Then, Congress addressed security in our nuclear weapons facilities and asked the D.O.E. to instate polygraph testing of SOME employees. (check this website out)http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/sandia.html
If security was that important to require polygraph testing of applicants, why not all of them. Since administers of these tests use personal opinion to read results of the machines and make judgements about those readings, could ethnicity or sex affect their decision?  If it did, how would they be proven guilty of discriminating against anyone?  Would they call in another polygrapher working for the same system to confer with those results.  By the way, I'm white and good looking and polite.  Winning people has never been hard. If people with authority don't have strict rules placed, how can they be trusted.  Ask this question, see if you can find out.  How many muslim secret service agents does Bush employ? I wonder. He's very christian, as if that makes this country better or worse. Have you ever heard anybody who goes too far with jesus and infringes it on somebody else? How is that a teaching of Jesus.  I'm Presbyterian. Does that explain alot?

A very recent study by Eli Lehrer points out that basic polygraph technology has not changed in the last 60 to 70 years.  Skeptics and polygraph professionals agree that the fundamental technology, which measures breathing, pulse, blood pressure and galvanic skin response (sweating) has remained unchanged since … the 1930s. American Polygraph Association President Richard Keifer says that computers have simplified the work but agrees that the measurements have not changed.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/sandia.html

Go to that government website and read the entire thing if you have time. Can you find a phrase including 100% anywhere?  Polygraph testing can't prove anything.  The only thing it can be used for would be fear.  If you want to terrorize innocents into prison, go ahead you analsphincter.  And at the same time, keep telling yourself you do just work. How many scientists have proven your Psudoscience false? How many people have you reproached into demur of you? Who are you to judge without proof?
Sweet dreams analsphincter.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #171 - May 18th, 2005 at 9:51am
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THe kid has a point here and is much wise in his analysis. Again if the Polygraph Industry is so based on integrity then why not open their message board so everyone can see it.  The Answer to this by perpetuating the lie and in playing the game the longer they can dupe the public, that they provide a vital service., yeah right. I personally believe that a complete and exhaustive background inverstigation would do more than any piece of garbage polygraph. But that involves effort and expense, something that these agencies have non of, or want to have. The other best part that I think is hilarious, is they state that their profession is college accredited.  If you check out the accreditation used by DODPI and other agencies that use that school. Its the same one that accredits trade schools, 3rd tier bottom feeder trade schools. Not real schools like the regional colleges and universities. That degree and $1.75 will get you coffee at Dunkin Donuts.
Real universities wouldn't even accept the credits with the exception of the diploma mills that are part of ACICS.
Now to the meat of this entry. This web site is vital to those who believe that being forearmed is always preferable to being unjustly accused and mentally BBQ'd.
I will use a quote fromt he movie "War Games", the best move is not to play the game !! This web site evens the game playing board, back to where the individual is in charge and not the bottom feeder polygrapher ... and yes I have authority figure issues, unless I am the authority.  I hope any polygraphers reading this, realize based on another post on this site that the numbers of downloads from this site is increasing all the time. The american public is savvy and my generation takes nothing at face value.  The polygraphers game is going the way of the Dinosaur, just a matter of time. And to add insult to injury, the CM's do work. The best part of all is knowing that the joke was on the polygrapher.
  

Theory into Reality !!
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #172 - May 18th, 2005 at 11:28am
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This is my first post as you see and you wont see me changing my name later and come one as someone else.
Anal, I think you are a narrow minded person because from the beginning you showed to be adeceptive person showing your true character and trying to psychoanalyze every one that disagreed with your opinion and come to a conclusion that everyone else's lying except for you.

I truly believe that a private polygrapher would have less reasons to show deceptive practices then someoneworking for the FBI, Police Department, or any other law enforcement agencies since everyone that works for law enforcement assumes everyone is lying.  The lines on a polygraph look- like EKG reading and a EKG willgive basically the same kind of reading when certain questions are asked because your pulse rate changes with questions of specific origin.   
I have had my dealings with the police department in the past and always, and I mean always, been treated unfairly and presumed guilty when I am totally innocent for a fact.

You just like any other law enforcement personnel is only human, and humans make the most mistakes especially when working law-enforcement agencies and the more guilty people you have the better you look.
I will be more than happy to give you my real name, my address, my phone number, and any other information you need to get to my house or local area and have some from this form of reputable statue to witness on videotape and hardcopy that I can pass any polygraph given regardless of the questions.
I would love to be the one that put you in your place.I'm not saying there arenot some legitimate polygraphers but again when you work for law-enforcement you can make them read what you want, how you interpret it,to say if someone is guilty or not. 
to give someone that much power over someone else is wrong because I'm sure you will not like my attitude toward you and you will form a bias opinion of me and try to make me look bad because you have no facts, just scare tactics and interrogation techniques that you are trained to use or have read about and I know what your first questions would be if I've read about this site or not and from there you assume I am guilty because I have come to this site to be informed instead of scared.

so to the people who read this forum I can honestly say that a polygraph is nothing to be afraid of it has no validity or is based on no scientific fact, just scare tactics.
I look forward to your response soon. sorry for the bad wording.
Im from Florida and according to law a polygraph is not admissable in a court of law so why take one.... but people like Anal will tell you if you have nothing to hide then why not take one................
Where supposed to be innocent until proven guilty... and never trust a states attourney....
Law enforcement will lie to you to make there job alot easier, in some cases this is a good thing but in other cases it makes the cops fat and lazy but thats a whole different story....
JUST REMEMBER THIS....You are guilty until proven innocent.
Why I put my opinion in is because I was married and my ex suffers from SAIDS, DIVORCE RELATED MALICIOUS MOTHER SYNDROME, Parental Alienation Syndrome, Stockholm Syndrome, Borderline Personality Disorder and being a pathological liar and every chance she gets she accuses me of something that I wouldn't even think of doing and I have been in court several different times over false accusations and outright lies but this doesn't constitute me happen to take a polygraph test.
Sincerely, Wally. 
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #173 - Jun 7th, 2005 at 7:44pm
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You most certainly ARE NOT INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY in today's legal system.

I am currently living what can only be described as a nightmare that I cannot wake up from.  I stand to lose my family and my freedom due to the "Child Saving Industry" and there is nothing I can do to stop it.

I can take and pass a lie detector test, but that won't stop the process.  I can proclaim my innocence from the top of a mountain, but that won't undo the harm my reputation has suffered.  I can fight the system and go through the system and lose my life savings in the process, but that won't necessarily keep me out of prison.

How has our legal system come to this?  An accusation with no basis in fact and no corroborating evidence is systematically destroying me and I can't stop it.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #174 - Jul 11th, 2005 at 6:51pm
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EosJupiter wrote on May 18th, 2005 at 9:51am:
...if the Polygraph Industry is so based on integrity then why not open their message board so everyone can see it?...

Good point.   

Several recent posters have made the claim that examinee knowledge of the testing procedure is no longer a concern for polygraph examiners.  Claims have also been made that countermeasures do not work and are easily detectable anyway, and if you attempt to use countermeasure you will automatically fail.  So why the closed board?  If the people viewed as “cheaters” have an open board why wouldn’t the people with the motto “Dedicated to Truth” have one as well?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #175 - Aug 22nd, 2005 at 6:15pm
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Judging by recent message board comments, not only is the taking up of the challenge long overdue, but sufficient time has passed since the challenge was put forth, that those who have actually read it have forgotten its content or, more likely, some who now comment have never read it at all.  It has nothing to do with me taking polygraph exams or being sufficiently motivated to do anything (less perform a teaching function).  For any interested persons, I suggest you read or re-read my initial post which began this thread (http://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?board=Proc&action=display&num=10... ).
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #176 - Aug 24th, 2005 at 6:57pm
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Nonombre or any other polygraph examiner,

I know it has been stated that no polygraph examiner will take this challenge as there is nothing to lose on the part of the examinee employing countermeasures.  This would be akin to a lab study, which most agree is not the same as an actual field exam.

With regard to nothing to lose, I must present the following question:  What of the applicant who has no fear of being deceptive when there is no other means to prove otherwise?  I will use an extreme example to help clarify the question (with a bit of humor).  As we are aware screening exams routinely contain questions about unlawful sexual conduct.  Applicant A was raised in a farm setting.  Upon reaching puberty, he enters into an illicit encounter with Dolly the sheep.  This is a one time occurence.  No one was around to witness this conduct as the barn doors were closed.  During the in-test phase of the polygraph exam, Applicant A is asked if he has ever committed a sex act with an animal.  Applicant A knows that there is no way to for the hiring agency to know or discover this conduct.  Where is the fear of being caught which would evoke fight or flight?

To me this would seem to be along the same lines for the oft-given reason to refrain from attempting Dr. Richardson's challenge.  Your thoughts?
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #177 - Aug 25th, 2005 at 2:12am
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Nonombre or any other polygraph examiner,

I know it has been stated that no polygraph examiner will take this challenge as there is nothing to lose on the part of the examinee employing countermeasures.  This would be akin to a lab study, which most agree is not the same as an actual field exam.

With regard to nothing to lose, I must present the following question:  What of the applicant who has no fear of being deceptive when there is no other means to prove otherwise?  I will use an extreme example to help clarify the question (with a bit of humor).  As we are aware screening exams routinely contain questions about unlawful sexual conduct.  Applicant A was raised in a farm setting.  Upon reaching puberty, he enters into an illicit encounter with Dolly the sheep.  This is a one time occurence.  No one was around to witness this conduct as the barn doors were closed.  During the in-test phase of the polygraph exam, Applicant A is asked if he has ever committed a sex act with an animal.  Applicant A knows that there is no way to for the hiring agency to know or discover this conduct.  Where is the fear of being caught which would evoke fight or flight?

To me this would seem to be along the same lines for the oft-given reason to refrain from attempting Dr. Richardson's challenge.  Your thoughts?


Brandon,

Excellent example!  However, please allow me to place your example in the light of what actually happens in most  polygraph situations:

Applicant A was raised in a farm setting.  Upon reaching puberty, he enters into an illicit encounter with Dolly the sheep.  This is a one-time occurrence.  No one was around to witness this conduct as the barn doors were closed.  During the in-test phase of the polygraph exam, Applicant A is asked if he has ever committed a sex act with an animal.  Applicant A, who knows if his affair with Dolly is ever exposed, would not only lose the job he had been hoping for, but he would be open to the ridicule of others, unbelievable embarrassment for his family, and probable criminal prosecution.

Applicant A is now scared out of his mind.  He "knows" if he is asked about abnormal sexual conduct, he will indeed be caught, screwed (no pun intended), his world destroyed, his life over.

There my friend is a PERFECT example of fight or flight and why the fear of consequences is an important part of the equation.

Regards,

Nonombre

P.S.  I hope Dolly is not a personal friend  Smiley
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Brandon Hall
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #178 - Aug 25th, 2005 at 2:25am
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Nonombre,

Thanks for the reply.  However, I think you missed my point.  As stated there are no witnesses, save good 'ole Dolly and she can't talk.  Where is the fear of being caught?  Knowing such conduct cannot be confirmed why would the examinee be fearful?  (note: I'm not trying to start a circular argument)

Also, please explain why the applicant would be subjected to public humiliation and ridicule.  Would the examiner release information attesting that the examinee failed a question regarding sexual conduct with a farm animal.  I was under the impression that such information was not for public consumption.  Also, again, no witnesses = no prosecution as there would be a lack of or at minimum extreme deterioration of evidence.

Quote:
P.S.  I hope Dolly is not a personal friend  


Seems polygraph examiners jump to conclusions and assumptions with an accuracy rate of pre-employment polygraph exams.  Much the same as you (I hope) I have never met Dolly.      Tongue      Wink
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #179 - Aug 25th, 2005 at 3:36am
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Nonombre,

Thanks for the reply.  However, I think you missed my point.  As stated there are no witnesses, save good 'ole Dolly and she can't talk.  Where is the fear of being caught?  Knowing such conduct cannot be confirmed why would the examinee be fearful?  (note: I'm not trying to start a circular argument)

Also, please explain why the applicant would be subjected to public humiliation and ridicule.  Would the examiner release information attesting that the examinee failed a question regarding sexual conduct with a farm animal.  I was under the impression that such information was not for public consumption.  Also, again, no witnesses = no prosecution as there would be a lack of or at minimum extreme deterioration of evidence.


Seems polygraph examiners jump to conclusions and assumptions with an accuracy rate of pre-employment polygraph exams.  Much the same as you (I hope) I have never met Dolly.      Tongue      Wink



Okay, last question first.  Dolly and I are just friends (and you can't prove any different).

Next, as you assume, A ethical police polygraph examiner would never publically release information,.  However, you must understand that has little effect on what goes through the mind of the polygraph subject.  Many times, they come into the room convinced their dirty laundry will end up on the front yard line for all to see.  We don't in any way tell them that, they believe it on their own.

Which leads me back to my original arguement.  As a calm,  rational person, sitting in your easy chair, posting on an internet web site, you feel quite comfortable there are no witnesses to you and Dolly, so therefore you have nothing to fear.  However, I would argue that in a good many cases, there is a significant fear, even real terror that the person(s) "dirty" little secret will be discovered during the investigative/polygraph process.  We call that "fear of detection of deception."   Brandon, this is not a circular argument in my opinion, just an honest difference in positions.

Nonombre


  
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