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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge (Read 366463 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sluggo
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #135 - Feb 13th, 2005 at 12:12am
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You're agreement seems to be, that even if it's not perfect, it's that best we got.

But consider this: there are several postings on here that are from law enforcement officers (FBI, in one case) that discuss how investigations were launched against them, where nothing was found.  Your tax dollars at work, and money in a poly operator's pocket no matter what the outcome.

One email on this site discussed how an agent failed a poly question re: espionage and he was removed from his work environment for a yr, while over $1MM was spent on an investigation on him, and nothing was found.  First and only time that's happened?  Doubt it.  Wink

The poly's never has caught a person who has committed espionage.  That would even suggest that the poly would remove suspension from those who are engaged in the activity. --Maybe the poly's a tool for that activity???? Scary thought.

Other times, people who are under suspicion pass, and walk, based on that one event.   Ted Bundy killed more co-eds after a poly gave him his 'get outta jail free' pass.  Operator gets paid though, no matter if the device doesn't work.

I don't believe the poly can help in investigations; can't be used in court...  all the work done on convicting an offender is based on hard evidence, not on if your pulse races when someone strap’s you to a machine that indicates your pulse races when asked, "did you touch that child's privates?".   

A lady that was raped came to this website for help when the rapist passed the poly, and she was asked to take one.  Her fear (rightly so) was that the event was so tramitic, she was afriad of getting a false positive.

So, a poly CAN BE a huge hindrance to getting to the truth. 

If we removed the poly as an instrument for determining suspession (because, that's all it can really be used for), what would we miss out on?

I do know that if that happened, operators would have a hard time finding use of their GEDs and poly experience in other vocations.... 8)
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #136 - Feb 13th, 2005 at 4:11am
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"One E-mail on this site discussed . . . "

Who cares what one E-mail on this site said.  You believe everything you read, Sluggo, even when you can't even cite which E-mail you are referring to?  My sister's best friend's boyfriend's brother-in-law's dad said that polygraph is 100%, so it must be true . . .

And I'm somewhat familiar with the Bundy case.  I wouldn't base his "walking" on the polygraph results.

People on this website talk as if the polygraph should only be used if it is 100% accurate, which even the best DNA tests ARE NOT.  Until we get a better instrument than the polygraph, it will be and should be used.  It gets to the truth more often than anything else out there.  Sounds like a useful tool to me.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #137 - Feb 13th, 2005 at 7:34pm
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Early empirical work in this area by Honts, Raskin, and Kircher (1987) suggested that countermeasures could be detected, but later work by Honts and his colleagues suggests that polygraph examiners do a poor job in detecting countermeasures (Honts, 1986; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001; Honts and Hodes, 1983; Honts, Hodes, and Raskin, 1985; Honts, Raskin, and Kircher, 1994). Unfortunately, this work shares the same limitations as the work suggesting that countermeasures have a substantial effect and is based on many of the same studies. There have been reports of the use of mechanisms to detect countermeasure in polygraph tests, notably, reports of use of motion sensors in some polygraph equipment to detect muscle tensing (Maschke and Scalabrini, no date). Raskin and Kircher (1999) present some evidence that these sorts of detectors can be effective in detecting specific types of countermeasures, but their general validity and utility remain a matter for conjecture. There is no evidence that mental countermeasures are detectable by examiners. The available research does not address the issue of training examiners to detect countermeasures.

Even if the motion sensors detect some minor movement they
can not fail a tested person on that alone. 

what do you think anal
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #138 - Feb 13th, 2005 at 9:04pm
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Danger of Overconfidence Overconfidence in the polygraph—a belief in its accuracy not justified by the evidence—presents a danger to national security objectives. A false faith in the accuracy of polygraph testing among potential examinees may enhance its utility for deterrence and eliciting admissions. However, we are more concerned with the danger that can arise from overconfidence in polygraph accuracy among officials in security and counterintelligence organizations, who are themselves potential examinees, Nevertheless, if the proportion of major security risks in the population being screened is equal to or less than 1 in 1,000, it is reasonable to expect even with optimistic assessments of polygraph test accuracy that each spy or terrorist that might be correctly identified as deceptive would be accompanied by at least hundreds of nondeceptive examinees mislabeled as deceptive, from whom the spy or terrorist would be indistinguishable by polygraph test result. The possibility that deceptive examinees may use countermeasures makes this tradeoff even less attractive
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #139 - Feb 13th, 2005 at 9:06pm
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My point anal, its not good enough until something better comes around. You will have to convince me that your argument in the right one.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #140 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 3:26am
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PG111: "Even if the motion sensors detect some minor movement they 
can not fail a tested person on that alone.  
 
what do you think anal"



Well, here's the fact regarding that statement: With Federal agencies, and with any state or local agency I've heard of, a polygraph examiner may halt an examination at any time he or she feels an examinee is not being cooperative.  It is a judgment call which he or she has full discretion to make.  Would it be called a failure?  No, because good data was not collected.  But if the examinee wants the job, he or she must cooperate fully, or at least convince the examiner of that cooperation.  A report can easily be written about what the examiner believes to be countermeasures.  And "butt pad" or other sensor "spikes" that aren't used for numerical analysis purpose, but rather to detect possible countermeasures, may result in an unfavorable report; and I'm sure you know what an unfavorable report means to an examinee's employment prospects.

PG111 wrote: "My point anal, its not good enough until something better comes around. You will have to convince me that your argument in the right one."

No, I don't have to convince you of anything, PG.  It is not my goal to force my beliefs on you.  I simply want to point out some of the misperceptions people on this forum have about the polygraph so that you are better informed.

As for your study citations, I will tell you the same thing I told very senior user Gino Scalabrini in my last reply to him, which is basically this: We could throw out referenced studies until we both have carpal tunnel syndrome, and all we'll look like are two religious scholars arguing over the interpretation of some obscure Biblical passage.  I think the studies I have cited are superior to anything else I have found, but that's my opinion, of course, both as a scholar and as someone with real-world experience.  However, most of the people on this forum won't read the studies or really care.  What they will do, hopefully, is remember that there are two sides to the story--something the people who host this website don't seem to want the worried little boys and girls to realize.  

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #141 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 4:49am
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Anal wrote: A report can easily be written about what the examiner believes to be countermeasures.  And "butt pad" or other sensor "spikes" that aren't used for numerical analysis purpose, but rather to detect possible countermeasures, may result in an unfavorable report; and I'm sure you know what an unfavorable report means to an examinee's employment prospects. 

Back to my point, polygraph should not rule out someone’s chances of a job, based on
speculation and conjecture, note the underlined quote of an examiner. Now on the other hand if the tested admitted using means other than truth on the polygraph then they do not deserve the job.

I like you anal, we could argue this for years and I truly hope we do.


PG111
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #142 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 5:02am
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Anal I do agree with you about polygraph having its place in criminal investigations. I have received good results in this manner, really turns up the heat on the dirt bag who has raped, assaulted, robbed, murdered someone. But the police investigating are the ones who break the bad guy into confession. Not the polygraph alone. my 02
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #143 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 4:33pm
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Conjecture is one thing; a perceived lack of cooperation is another.  If the examiner believes he or she is not collecting good data--for whatever reason--the exam results should not be reported.

You are somewhat likeable yourself, PG.   Wink  However, this forum will only entertain me for so long before the same old opinions, by both "anti-" people and "pro-" people will bore me to tears  Cry .   Then I'll find myself another controversial forum of interest.  George and Company must realize that.  Once my voice of reason leaves the scene, they can go back to scaring little boys and girls about the "boogeyman" of polygraph, and they can continue telling bedtime fairy tales that make those scared little boys and girls feel better.

One more thing about which you and I are in total agreement: Polygraph does NOT make cases.  Any decent polygrapher can get a guilty person to produce guilty polygraph charts--the guilty hang themselves.  However, not everyone can get a confession or admission; that's where a good polygrapher's skill truly comes into play.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #144 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 5:07pm
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anythingformoney wrote on Feb 14th, 2005 at 4:33pm:
Conjecture is one thing; a perceived lack of cooperation is another.  If the examiner believes he or she is not collecting good data--for whatever reason--the exam results should not be reported.

You are somewhat likeable yourself, PG.   Wink  However, this forum will only entertain me for so long before the same old opinions, by both "anti-" people and "pro-" people will bore me to tears  Cry .   Then I'll find myself another controversial forum of interest.  George and Company must realize that.  Once my voice of reason leaves the scene, they can go back to scaring little boys and girls about the "boogeyman" of polygraph, and they can continue telling bedtime fairy tales that make those scared little boys and girls feel better.

One more thing about which you and I are in total agreement: Polygraph does NOT make cases.  Any decent polygrapher can get a guilty person to produce guilty polygraph charts--the guilty hang themselves.  However, not everyone can get a confession or admission; that's where a good polygrapher's skill truly comes into play.


Oh is that where the polygrapher states he has to review the charts and he goes into the other room to consult the Ouija Board? I know it is a skill to master that board. The polygraph and the Ouija Board are very similar in nature, you don't need a college education to operate eithier of them and both results are quite questionable. Hell, even I have come up with inconclusive results on the Ouija, the marker was half on yes and half on no. I am still confident the Ouija is effective in the majority of cases it is used Smiley
« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2005 at 5:35pm by anxietyguy »  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #145 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 9:56pm
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You sound a little scared, anxietyguy.  Could you use a bedtime fairy tale story?  Stick around then, and I'm sure someone from the "anti-" crowd can come up with a good one.

Is what "where the polygrapher states he has to review the charts and he goes into the other room?"  Your reply makes so little sense that I was simply going to ignore it, but perhaps I should give you at least a chance to clarify your statements.

Having never used a Ouija board myself, I can't speak with any authority on the subject, but if you say it's effective, please point me in the direction of some studies on the subject.  I really would be interested.
« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2005 at 12:01am by »  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #146 - Feb 14th, 2005 at 11:17pm
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It has been my experience that when the examiner leaves the room to review the charts, it is to confer with the police and have a smoke etc. We have found it seems to help letting the accused stew a while by his/her self. This being criminal cases of course.

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #147 - Feb 15th, 2005 at 2:19am
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I am sorry your simple mind can't figure it out. Well lets put it this way I would rather put my faith in the Ouija Board then the polycrap. I havent seen you respond to your own messages lately not enough time? Keep on posting your BS but many allready know that countermeasures work, including yourself.
  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #148 - Feb 15th, 2005 at 4:31pm
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I admit it's difficult to decipher unintelligible comments.  I'm not a mind reader, so I need something that makes sense if I am to respond to it.

Could countermeasures work?  Perhaps so, but you would need much practice using a real polygraph, and preferably some good feedback from an experienced polygrapher to use them successfully, and I don't think most of the scared little boys and girls on this forum have the opportunity or the means.

Calling something a bad name like "polycrap" doesn't support your view; it just makes you look stupid.

  
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Re: Polygraph Countermeasure Challenge
Reply #149 - Feb 15th, 2005 at 6:46pm
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It is ironic that you make that point because you being an analsphincter, the name really fits you. Maybe if you would spend more time doing research then responding to your own posts on this forum, you may increase your own IQ. Polygraphy was the only field you could get into? Being Jesus and all I figured you would find a respectable job. Though your personality has been shown on this forum that you are one to play God. Well you will have your day my friend. I laugh at you and your machine because like your simple mind it can be beat. Keep posting I do not whine about the polygraph, I have passed two myself and have not failed any. I still think it is BS along with you. The polygraph is a waste, which makes you a waste of flesh.
  
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