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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph (Read 299240 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #300 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 12:24am
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Ugh, they have physically threatened me a few times, including Maria personally threatening me and then running way, to see refuge in the crowd.  Cowards will be cowards, I guess. 

Anyway, if any of them actually tried to follow up the threats, I would actually have a small amount of respect for them; but like many bullies, they only time they are brave is when they can do as they please, and run, to hide behind the protection of others while pretending to be the victims. 

It's become very clear to me, their threats are little more than a form of trolling.  They are hoping that people in Polygraph Place are right, and I will snap.  I often wonder if people are disappointed that I haven't and won't. 

The Texas polygraph establishment can talk a good game, but they lack substance, credibility, or courage.

You say that I have lost; and for the bigger part of the picture, I agree.  However, there are a few areas, where I was able to correctly predict their behavior, and as such, they have handed me clear victories.  That is the great thing about the arrogant and corrupt, they're predictable.

From the first time TAPE and those within the Texas polygraph establishment said that my accusations were lies, one of my main goals was to prove their accusation false. 

I have done that.  I submit to you that the actions, or lack thereof, of TAPE, Maria, and other individuals, all but proves that what they say about me, or what I have accused them of, cannot be believed or trusted.  As such, in my opinion, they have no or little credibility.

When I was seeking out the advice of examiners, outside the state of Texas, mostly officers from other polygraph associations, everyones continued suggestion to deal with these people?  "Joe take it to court." 

Well, I can tell you from experience, being a plaintiff in a lawsuit sucks ass; it is also very expensive. Me taking them to court, simply was not a financial option for me.

However, when all this started up in 2014 again, and TAPE hired a Lawyer, he threatened to sue me for libel, slander and fraud.  After I had a friend look at the case, and my supporting evidence, backing up my claims.  It was decided that my response to this lawyer should be, and I believe it was, and I quote, "I look forward to seeing you in court, I'll bring the coffee and donuts." 

My lawyer advised me, that the best defense to a libel and slander lawsuit, is the truth. Let TAPE, Maria and everyone else sue you. 

With them bringing the lawsuit, the burden of proof that I am lying is on them.  As I don't file for summery judgment or a dismissal, chances are very good that it will go to trial. 

I am sure they were also told that they would leave themselves open to discovery, and to public cross examination.  Also, what they claim are lies, like that TAPE forced me to resign my membership under odious and unethical circumstances, would be subject to scrutiny and cross examination. 

Yup, I agreed with members of both the APA and NPA leadership.  If the APA won't or can't deal with this situation, lets handle it in court.  Being sued gives me exactly what I wanted in 2008, my day in court, where I would be given an opportunity, on public record, to show just how awful these people are, and how this industry in Texas needs to be reeled in and fixed. 

Sounds like a plan to me.  Again, My response to their lawyer was, "I look forward to seeing you in court. I'll bring the coffee and donuts."

Fast forward from October 13, 2014 to today, 2016. 

I'm still waiting. 

Why haven't I been sued?  Because I am telling the truth, and the best defense to a libel and slander lawsuit, is the truth. They just won't do it, because they can't prove that the things I'm saying are lies.  They also know, that I can prove that what I am saying is the truth.

If I was lying, I have no doubt in my mind, that lawyer along with Wood's lawyer would have sued me, and taken my ass to the cleaners.  They have the resources. 

But you can't sue someone for libel and slander, if they are telling the truth.  Well..... Ya can..... It's just a really bad idea. 

There is no ambiguity, I have told the truth about what is happening in Texas, as well as about TAPE, Maria, and the rest of the round up gang. 

The leaders on the national and world wise stage, feel the Texas issue should be handled in court.  I agree, TAPE's lawyer clearly agreed this should go to court to.  TAPE and the people involved promised to sue me if I kept going, yet here we are.  Two years later, and I am still waiting.  What's holding them back, the truth?  Ya, I can see where that is an inconvenient snag. 

Basically, they said that they would meet me at the flag pole after school, and they didn't show. 

Besides, they like a kangaroo court over a court of law.  Isn't that right Maria, Stuart Ervin, Jack St. John, Andy Shepherd, and the rest of the round up gang? 

And you all can be as mad at me as you want, because you're looking in the wrong direction.  Want to be angry at someone, slap Maria with a news paper, put a leash on her, and put her in her crate. 

If you people don't get her under control, eventually she is going to screw up where you people will be expected to answer for her.  As an officer of TAPE, her actions are a direct reflection of TAPE and it's membership.  Like it or not, that is how it is.

TAPE's leadership is either unable or unwilling to enforce its bylaws or restrain a member when necessary.  I suspect, given TAPE's current leadership makeup, Maria's behavior is not only condoned, but encouraged.  I have yet to see evidence otherwise.



« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2016 at 11:19am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #301 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 1:37pm
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The most important way I won though. 

I have offered, clear and convincing evidence, that the leadership and establishment of The Texas Polygraph Industry, including the current President and Vice President of TAPE, Maria Hubbard and Clayton Wood, are afraid of the very product that they sell and promote.

They either know they will be caught in their lies, or they don't believe in the accuracy and reliability of polygraph enough to trust their own lives to the result of a polygraph.

To think, they expect others to pay them top dollar, and trust their lives to them and the test is repugnant to my sensibilities.  Talk about misplaced trust. Wow, anyone who takes a test with these examiners are fools. 

The Texas consumer has won too.  Because they now know about the biggest embarrassment, or what should be the biggest embarrassment of the Texas Polygraph Industry and Establishment. 

I speak here of the *45% inconclusive rate of Richard Wood and Associates. A firm that the current President of TAPE has worked for since he has been licensed. He is also partial owner of the above mentioned, 45% inconclusive rate. 

Think about that for a minute.  That means almost half the time, the examiners at Richard Wood and Associates  couldn't tell if someone was deceptive or non deceptive. 

What did you say at that one TAPE meeting in Fort Worth Richard?  "I did nothing worng."  Wasn't that what you said?  Well, you got 90% of the business, almost half the time you and your people couldn't tell the truth from a lie, and to put icing on the cake, a sex offender was beating more than one your tests.  I know this, because I caught what you missed. 

In any other industry, you'd be out of business with piss poor results like that.

To think you people are the preferred polygraph examiner in Tarrant County?  Wow, Tarrant County could do better.  They did once, but they ran their best examiner in the county off because you couldn't handle the competition.

I would say that, if you put my product up against the product of Richard Wood and Associates, I am clearly the better choice; but the fact that I have never had an inconclusive rate of 45%, makes my case kinda obvious. 

Am I lying? Sue me.  I saved all the discovery, and can prove that 45% number. 

The people of Tarrant County should ask themselves a question.  Was corrective action taken by the county to make sure the poor performance in polygraphing the county's convicted sex offenders 's at Richard Wood and Associates?  To the best of my knowledge, no. 

In fact, no one, including TAPE seemed very disturbed by this number at all.  Is there still a chance that there is still a large inconclusive rate at Richard Wood and Associates, I guess we will never know. 

The State of Texas does not require polygraph examiners to report inconclusive rates.  In fact, while the State of Texas does regulate polygraph, it does not regulate the Sex Offender polygraph Industry.

So anyone who has any issues of tests being run outside of standard, or in a way that is unethical, you have no one to complain to.  This is the way they like it in the State of Texas. 

With no licensing authority looking over their shoulders in the sex offender testing industry, examiners can do as they wish; and they will get way with it. Because the foxes are watching the hen house. 

Consumers also need to know that, no one is checking behind us independently in Texas.  In most, if not all, cases, QC is done by other examiners in TAPE.  Sometimes QC is done by another examiner, in the same office.  Given the documented history of the ,good ole boy system,  what are the chances those reviews will be independent and unbiased?

The Texas Polygraph Establishment is corrupted at its highest levels.  The Texas Sex Offender Polygraph Industry is broken at a fundamental level, and has been since 2008.  It is unregulated, and examiners can frankly do as they please, with no regulatory accountability or consequence. 

My advice to every polygraph consumer paying for his or her own test.  At the end of the test, demand the charts.  You paid for the test, you have a right to those charts, and it only takes a minute to print them.  If you go to Richard Wood and Associates, or are forced to go there, and you fail or come up inconclusive, DON'T LEAVE WITHOUT YOUR CHARTS AND QUESTION LIST. 

Do have your charts reviewed by an independent examiner of your choice.  Do demand the ability to retest with an independent examiner of your choice.  If polygraph is so standardized, an examiner who is properly licensed should be able to handle the test, so long as they follow the standards. 

Do get a lawyer. 

If you are being charged with a crime, do not take the DA's test or the police test, without the advice of an attorney. 

If you think your husband of wife is cheating, take that money and get a family therapist or a divorce attorney.  Polygraph is not going to save your marriage.  Pass or fail, it will only create more distrust. 

Remember, Fenian Polygraph Services is always happy to take a look at charts, at no cost.  Just know, no matter what my issues are with one examiner or the other, if they did it right, I'll defend them. 

If any of the examiners has a problem with anything I said or anything I said was libelous or slanderous, sue me.  I'll bring the donuts and coffee.   

So yea, while they win because they have DA's, some of the CSCD's, and other authorities duped. The Texas Polygraph Industry has leaders of questionable integrity and possibly questionable skills. 

Also the leadership in the Texas Polygraph Industry has a credibility problem, when they talk about accuracy and reliably of the test.  Their credibility should also be in question with the consumer.  Why should someone by a product from someone who refuses to use the product themselves.

But yes, I have lost in regard to revenue.  Having said that, if the Texas market were I level playing field, i would be making a lot more money, and some examiners would be put out to pasture, where as others would just be out. 

Given a choice, I'll take my integrity over money any day of the week, and never look back.  I worry about the integrity of the test, the consumer, and then the integrity of the industry.  I only wish that TAPE and it's leadership did the same.

As God as my witness, I will fix what is wrong in Texas,  because silence and capitulation has not worked.  If I'm going to be continuously attacked, I might as well give them a reason to do it.

Saddle up buckaroos
 
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #302 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 3:03pm
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Dec 4th, 2016 at 1:37pm:
If you think your husband of wife is cheating, take that money and get a family therapist or a divorce attorney.  Polygraph is not going to save your marriage.  Pass or fail, it will only create more distrust.


Joe, if polygraph is as accurate as you think it is -- you continually offer to stake your career on a polygraph challenge to TAPE, after all --then why should the outcome of a so-called fidelity test create more distrust?

You have articulated a double standard.

Do your PCSOT polygraph outcomes create more distrust?

Do your LEPET polygraph outcomes create more distrust?

Do your criminal-case polygraph outcomes create more distrust?

Either the specific-issue CQT polygraph result is trustworthy or it isn't.

Please explain why only "some" polygraph outcomes should be considered reliable, and why fidelity-test outcomes are uniquely untrustworthy.
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2016 at 3:21pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #303 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 7:19pm
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Because couples are petty and distrustful.

If the accused passes, they often feel resentful of having to take the test. 

If the accused fails, well, self explanatory, shit hits the fan.

Someone is wrong, and someone is right, and neither side will ever let the other forget it.  You been married long enough to know at least that. 

I never said it's not accurate or less accurate. I feel the test was accurate enough to bet my future on; unlike some of my competition in Texas. 

I just feel that a therapist is a more useful tool to resolve those issues than a polygraph.  If it has gone too far for a therapist to help, how does one think a polygraph will be any better?

Clearly something is not good enough for someone, and lets face it, people are, by nature horrible. 

A person is kind, rational and reasonable; but people; are horrible, hateful, vindictive, and mistrustful; and you know it.

Come on Dan, you've been married and have seen enough people get divorce to know this.  It's life 101.

Nice try though bro in putting words in my mouth, better luck next time.   

I'll say it again, in case you missed it.  Polygraph is accurate and reliable enough, that I offered to sit, for my own test, publicly, and bet my license and future on the result.  You don't get more of a product endorsement than that.

I said polygraph wouldn't fix a marriage, when people already hate and are mistrustful of one another.  (I stand by that)  What I didn't say, was that infidelity was inaccurate or unreliable.

Got to brush up on your reading comprehension bro.

If you want someone to join your inaccurate and unreliable bandwagon, go to the next TAPE meeting.  You'll find lots of people there who are petrified of the test.  Start with Maria Hubbard.

Hey, she would know a lot about the infidelity thing too....... Ya know, being a "specialist" in infidelity and all...... I mean she has it all over her website.
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #304 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 8:50pm
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Joe, let's put the tortured dynamics of personality aside.

The APA says a specific-issue polygraph "test" is 90+% accurate. Do you agree?

Is there any reason to believe that said accuracy would be less for fidelity polygraph "tests"?
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #305 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 9:55pm
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Please see previous answer.  While I hate polygraph examiners here in Texas, and hate the corruption that is allowed to occur down here, as people turn a blind eye to some of the  PCSOT examiners down here being no better than pre EPPA examiners, (they know who they are) I do not hate what I do for a living. 

And again the communications process has broken down.  I am not one of those examiners who touts an accuracy rate and then don't follow it up with action.  To this day, I'm the only examiner to have publicly offed to not only sit for the very test I sell, but I also bet my entire career on the results of that polygraph. 

If that makes me an idiot, it makes me an idiot with integrity; and I will wear that as a badge of honor on my sleeve. 

If you are looking to attack the integrity, reliably, and accuracy of the test, lets call on Maria Hubbard, Richard Wood, Clayton Wood, Andy Sheppard, Stuart Ervin, Jack St John, and others involved with the 2008 lawsuit and 2009 TAPE ethics committee and Board of Directors. 

They are the ones who seem to possibly have a problem with the accuracy and reliability of the test.  Either that, or they believe in the test like I do, and they don't want to get caught in their lies.  There really is no third option. 

As for your very interesting and misguided belief that I said or implied that infidelity testing is somehow less accurate and reliable, please look at what I really said.

I was not faulting the test, I was faulting the idiots who think it will somehow fix their marriage.  Polygraph will do more damage than good, because someone will either, not accept the results, or resent the other person for making the test necessary. 

When it comes to infidelity testing, the problem is not the test.  The problem is people want a quick fix to a bigger problem that is better solved with the help of a trained therapist, a priest, or, if it's gone too far, a good divorce attorney. 

You say to take personality out of it, when you deal with this kind of testing, you're going to be dealing with difficult personalities. 

You and I have agreed on many things; but one thing we will not see eye to eye on, is the issue of accuracy and reliability.  And you can't accuse me of being one of the good ole boys, or a part of the establishment.  Because, I'm so on the out side of any "in crowd," you're probably liked by the establishment more than I am.

Hell, if all the sudden the polygraph establishment were to embrace me into the in crowd I would lose the business I have.  One of the reasons some of my lawyers use me, is because I am anti establishment. 

  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #306 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 10:13pm
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Joe, in your professional opinion, how accurate is a specific-issue polygraph "test"?
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #307 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 10:29pm
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I have an idea,

I know some of the people I am talking about is watching this string.  I also have little doubt that people who thought my polygraph solution, was a, and I quote, "stupid idea" and "thats just not the way things are done."

They are the ones with problems with accuracy and reliability rates, or they wanted to keep the truth hidden.  Lets ask them to chime in.

Hey Maria, is it you didn't want to get caught in your lies, or is it that you are afraid of the accuracy and reliability of the test?  I'm just wondering, because if you are so convinced that you've been tell the truth, and Ive been lying, the polygraph solution would have achieved what you wanted. 

If I failed and you passed, I would have kept my word and left the industry.  Having said that, when you failed and I passed, I would have expected you and others to your end of the bargain.  I suspect you were more afraid of getting caught in your lies, but only you know for sure.

So which is it?  Were you more afraid of getting caught in a lie, or do you thing the test is not accurate and reliable enough to gamble on?

Dan, they are the ones with a problem with the test.  Why don't you call them out?  You might get the backup you want from them about the lack of accuracy argument.  Just saying. 



  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #308 - Dec 4th, 2016 at 10:33pm
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I gave you the answer to your question.  It is accurate and reliable enough for me to bet my livelihood and income on. 

You feel the same way, if what Ray has stated in the past was true.  Is there I study with your name on it, that had a 100% accuracy rate?
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #309 - Dec 5th, 2016 at 1:24am
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Joe, clearly an experienced polygraph professional of your stature can attribute a rate of accuracy -- or at least a range of  accuracy -- that both TXDOC personnel and the average consumer can understand.

So, in your estimation, how accurate is the "test"?

Please tell us, Joe.

Is the "test" at least 90% accurate?

Is it at least 80% accurate?

Is it at least 70% accurate?

Joe, please state for the record how accurate you think the polygraph "test" is.

As for my study showing 100% accuracy under certain circumstances, it is true -- under certain circumstances..

In my study, those circumstances may have included -- but are not limited to -- the influence of outside information providers, such as case detectives.

In any event, my study is an outlier. The results are not to be generalized.

But you work day to day in the trenches.

Given that, Joe, how accurate is your own polygraph "testing"? What proof do you have that your calls were correct? Confessions and admissions?

Now, let's get real.

For some fifteen (15) years, the American Polygraph Association endorsed -- and peddled (for $25.00) --  a report of a half-assed meta-analysis that claimed polygraph is 98% accurate.

The APA-endorsed report cited multiple studies claiming 100% accuracy.

Has the APA disavowed those studies? No.

In any event, my study came many years later.

The takeaway message is this: Be wary of polygraph studies that are indu$try friendly.

As for Ray Nelson, I suggest you look deeply into his own polygraph indu$try connection$ before putting too much stock into his claims.

« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2016 at 3:14am by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #310 - Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:54am
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Dan Mangan wrote on Dec 5th, 2016 at 1:24am:
Joe, clearly an experienced polygraph professional of your stature can attribute a rate of accuracy -- or at least a range of  accuracy -- that both TXDOC personnel and the average consumer can understand.

So, in your estimation, how accurate is the "test"?

Please tell us, Joe.

Is the "test" at least 90% accurate?

Is it at least 80% accurate?

Is it at least 70% accurate?

Joe, please state for the record how accurate you think the polygraph "test" is.

As for my study showing 100% accuracy under certain circumstances, it is true -- under certain circumstances..

In my study, those circumstances may have included -- but are not limited to -- the influence of outside information providers, such as case detectives.

In any event, my study is an outlier. The results are not to be generalized.

But you work day to day in the trenches.

Given that, Joe, how accurate is your own polygraph "testing"? What proof do you have that your calls were correct? Confessions and admissions?

Now, let's get real.

For some fifteen (15) years, the American Polygraph Association endorsed -- and peddled (for $25.00) --  a report of a half-assed meta-analysis that claimed polygraph is 98% accurate.

The APA-endorsed report cited multiple studies claiming 100% accuracy.

Has the APA disavowed those studies? No.

In any event, my study came many years later.

The takeaway message is this: Be wary of polygraph studies that are industry friendly.

As for Ray Nelson, I suggest you look deeply into his own polygraph industry connection$ before putting too much stock into his claims.




I believe I have already been on the record in my videos about this.  I believe, based on the data out there, coupled with my personal experience, that 90% is a reasonable number.  I always had a problem with the 98% number after a few years.  It just seemed a little too, "pie in the sky." 

Anyway, Karen and I argue about this all the time.  After a while, I get sick of arguing about it, and flip the "Charlie brown Teacher switch" in my head to, "wha wha wha.... wha wha wha wha."  So debating you on accuracy will probably get less attention in the long run.  Sorry man, I have to live with her, not you.  lol

In regard to my DI tests, I have a very respectable confession rate.  In fact, and this is probably one of the many reasons my competition hates me. Some of my examinees come to me after a couple of failures with my competition; and when they get to me, I will often get the confession my competitors couldn't, sometimes, pretest.  I actually credit this to my intern instructor.  I'd be nowhere near as good at what I do, if it wasn't for him, and if I could be 5% the examiner or that man that he is, I'd die a well achieved man. 

It's my understanding that he is retied now; and although I am very happy for him, I think the industry is less one of the best and most ethical examiners I have ever met.  Every day I'm in the polygraph room, it's his standard I try to live up to, in regard to integrity. 

Anyway.

I also have a consistent, under 5% inconclusive rate. This year, I have only had 2 inconclusive tests.  This is something I am particularly proud of.  I guess a guy has an off day once and a while.

  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #311 - Dec 6th, 2016 at 10:03am
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But if we are going to accuracy and reliability.

Again, you should be talking to examiners who refuse to take a polygraph examination to resolve an ongoing dispute.  A test that would have ended this whole issue, once and for all, within two hours, a long time ago.

Instead, they opted to take the long way around and go with a prolonged libel and slander campaign which has lasted for ten years, and has only strengthened my resolve. 

Maria Hubbard claims that, "Correctly administered, a lie detector test utilizing the polygraph examination, can be 87% to 94% accurate when a trained polygraph examiner uses a reliable and validated testing format."  Her actions say different. 

She is also, according to her website

"Full Member of the American Polygraph Association; Currently a Member of the Texas Membership Committee; Awarded Certification of Advanced Training and Specialization/Post-Conviction Sex Offender Testing"

Why would a Committee Member of the APA, with advanced training, run from a polygraph when she knows it to be so accurate and reliable? 

Hmmmmm I don't know. Huh

Call her and ask her.  Don't be shy everyone, I'm sure she would love to talk to and educate people on the accuracy and reliability of the test she sells, but wouldn't dare take herself. 

Talk about a true leader.  Leading by example.  Such an inspiration.   Roll Eyes

Call John Rios, current past president of TAPE, and member of the APA.  Ask him why Maria and other ranking members of TAPE are afraid of polygraph. 

Opppppps I forgot, we already have the good New Braunfels, TX, Detective Rios, on video regarding this matter.  What did he say?  An examiner who's afraid of taking a polygraph, is someone who, "has something to hide." 

So clearly Mr. Rios believes in polygraph,  Having said that,  one can safely assume from his statement, that if he couldnt convince Maria or anyone else to take the test, maybe they have something to hide. 

Who else can we ask?

OOOOOOOOOOO Clayton Wood, the Current President of TAPE and member of the APA.  He is the president of a polygraph association.  Let's see if he will comment on the accuracy and reliability of polygraph.  Surely he will be in defense of the 93% accuracy rate.  Of course, then he will have to explain why he refused to take a test. Yea, I doubt he'd answer questions. 

OOOOOOO Here is a good person to ask.  Andy Sheppard..... Yea, he would be awesome.  I bet you can find his number in the APA Directory.

Anyway, he's an APA polygraph instructor, former Texas DPS polygraph examiner and instructor, former JPCOT Committee Chairman, former Presiding Officer of the Texas Polygraph Examiners Board, former Chairman of the TAPE Ethics Committee, Member of the APA. 

Wow I bet he would be able to tell you anything you want to know about the accuracy and reliability of polygraph Dan. I bet he will defend the accuracy rates; but again, problematic. Given that he too ran and hid from the polygraph challenge. 

Not good Andy, not good.  Doesn't exactly, inspire confidence that even you, are afraid of the test you sell.

Gosh, there are so many examiners, who scream about the accuracy and reliability of polygraph, but yet, recently ran from it like one would run from a train wreck. 

Yet, these people, who would no doubt defend the 93% accuracy rate, you might even find a chucklehead who will defend the 98% number, won't back up their confidence with action.

Hmmmmm maybe they know something I don't.  You know Dan, maybe the test might not be as accurate and reliable as they say.  I mean wow, some of the names involved are respected people in the field, and if they don't trust polygraph, why should anyone else? 

They can continue to lead by hypocrisy, by telling people, "hey look how accurate and reliable this test is.  Now give me money."  All along thinking "I wouldn't take this test no matter what the cost."

I'll lead by example.  I don't expect any of my examinees to take a test, that I haven't offered to sit for myself; and trusted my life with the results. 

What is wrong with that picture?

Yes Dan, asking me about my belief in the accuracy and reliability of polygraph is like asking if the Holy Father believes in the Trinity.  Its, like asking if Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback ever.  It's like asking if there are any bodies in Boston Harbor, or the Charles River.  Is the sky blue? Is the grass green?  Did Bill Clinton have sexual relations, with that girl, Monica Lewinsky? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, YES. 

(NOTE: It's a common joke in Boston about people wearing cement shoes in the Harbor or in the Charles River.  So anyone who wants to make silly phone calls, tell them I know where Jimmy Hoffa is too..... ugh.... Roll Eyes )

I would never gamble my future on something that I feel won't save me or sustain me.

When you ask me about the accuracy and reliability of polygraph, you become the dog that caught the car; chew on the tires all you want, in the end, all you'll have to show for it is a broken tooth.

Now let's explore the implications of countermeasures with this also. 

One would think, if there is anyone who would be good at countermeasures, it would be a polygraph examiner, right?  Espically polygraph examiners who are soooooooo smaht and educated; like Maria, Andy, Claton, Richard Wood, etc etc.

Solution would be simple, pull countermeasures, everyone passes, then I look like an idiot because there is no final and conclusive outcome. I would be forced to shut up, because they passed. 

If countermeasures work, and work so consistently, why did they not take that route?  Would it not have truly been the path of least resistance? 

Hell, lets look how far back they could have ended this. On April 20th 2008, I posted the first offer to test.

They could have ended this years ago. 

If countermeasures worked so well, why did they not just end it then and there? It would have been over, I wouldn't have lasted a year in this business after that kind of an embarrassment; because that would have dogged me until I gave up and quit. 

If countermeasures work, consistently, both when you want to prevent a false positive, and when you want to outright beat the test, undetected, why wouldn't the very people, who know more about the actual practice and administration of polygraph not use that to their benefit? Thereby shutting up a whistle blower who is rocking the boat and ruining a good scam. 

These people claim to be true experts on polygraph, some of them even wrote the JPCOT and APA guidelines. Yet they wouldn't risk a test performing countermeasures. What does that say about the true effectiveness of countermeasures, and that they can be performed consistently, and without detection?

Wow, I just made the best case on why countermeasures may not work as consistently and without detection as anyone ever has.  EVEN THE POLYGRAPH EXPERTS WON'T TRY IT.  Because believe me, if they knew they could do it and get away with it undetected, with everyone watching, this group would have done it.   
« Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2016 at 10:39am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #312 - Dec 6th, 2016 at 12:04pm
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 10:03am:
Yes Dan, asking me about my belief in the accuracy and reliability of polygraph is like asking if the Holy Father believes in the Trinity.



Anyone contemplating taking a polygraph "test" would be well advised to take such blind faith -- which runs rampant throughout the polygraph indu$try --into consideration before placing themselves in jeopardy.

I have said many times that polygraph is much more of a religion than it is a science.

From what I've observed in the last 13 years, the strongest believers in polygraph are those who profit from the "test."

The scientific, medical and legal communities have largely condemned polygraph since the 1920s -- and for good reason: polygraph is unreliable, prejudicial, and can be manipulated by both the examiner and examinee alike.
  
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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #313 - Dec 6th, 2016 at 3:19pm
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Wow, still don't want to ask the tough questions on accuracy and reliability to the examiners who tout it loudly, but their actions are contrary to their claims. 

One would think this would be important to your claims. 

Having said that, when you claim a 100% accuracy rate, it seems odd coming here and then claiming it does work at all and is "religion."  Claiming a 100% accuracy rate on one hand and claiming it doesn't work on the other and is, religion, is as confusing as someone starting an organization called, Christians Against Christ.

You're biggest and most documented chink in the armor, is Texas, because of the well documented abuses, restriction of trade, the intimidation and silencing of anyone who dare expose some of your points as true. 

Dan Mangan wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 12:04pm:
From what I've observed in the last 13 years, the strongest believers in polygraph are those who profit from the "test."


Ok and this one just about made me laugh.  Are you fucking kidding me?  Did you read any of what I wrote, or are you so wrapped up in hating the industry in which you make some of your living, that you have to make up facts.  Documented facts.

The most prominent polygraph examiners, in the State of Texas, some of the examiners which are partly  responsible, or the claim to be, for CSOT testing as a whole, are the examiners who are running from the test.  I promise you, they are making all the money.  The one guy, in the entire country, who is so confident in polygraph, that he literally bet his life on it, and I can say this with 200% certainty; IS MORE BROKE THAN GARRY COLEMAN AFTER HE BECOME AN ADULT. 

So, unless you know something I don't know, there is no way, that Dan Mangan wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 12:04pm:
the strongest believers in polygraph are those who profit from the "test."
.  Sorry, but that is one claim you can't back up.  Even if we go outside the state of Texas, many polygraph examiners called my idea, "foolish" and "thats not how we do things."

Given those two statements, we can only come to one of two conclusions.  Either they think it's a stupid idea, because the results would force them to suddenly acknowledge the elephant in the room, or they don't believe in the accuracy and reliability to let our own examiners be held to the test.  Good luck getting a straight answer on that one, I been trying for a couple years. 

If you were to use actions to gauge who is the biggest supporter of polygraph in the industry, that would be me.  So by your reasoning, I should be damn freaking successful.  NEWS FLASH............ I'm not.

In fact, the biggest believer in polygraph, is the one polygraph examiner, these people want gone.  Wow, talk about some messed up priorities.  The people who either, don't believe in the accuracy, or doesn't want to be exposed for being people you don't want testing anyones integrity, are the examiners making the most money, and making the rules. 

I will reiterate my argument on countermeasures.  Because frankly, the Texas Examiners, and their actions, do make for some interesting though in this area.

If charts can be manipulated, undetected, and consistently enough to render polygraph totally useless, why didn't the polygraph experts do it to get rid of me years ago?  You would think if that could be done, they would have jumped all over that to get rid of me, within a day; never to return. 

Gotta admit, this is food for thought.  I assure you, if maria hubbard thought she could get away with it she would have done it in a NY minute.  She has made it pretty clear, she hates me enough to take some amazing risks to get me kicked out, or to make me leave.  If she could do it in two hours and not risk getting caught, she would have put that blood pressure off on, so fast, you'd swear you smelt something burning.

So yea, your theory that it can be manipulated easily and consistently by the examinee, even the real experts didn't want to chance it. 

This also tosses out the idea of the examiner manipulating the charts, Because, if that could happen undetected, they defiantly would have done that.  How would an examiner manipulate the charts now a days, given the instrumentation we now have?

I would be very entertained to hear this one.
  

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Re: Texas sex offender & mandatory polygraph
Reply #314 - Dec 6th, 2016 at 3:52pm
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Oh and BTW, the letter I posted earlier last week, I finally managed to trace it to its author.  The Board member who seemed to have a problem with the SOTP market, possibly becoming a racket was Lawrence Mann. 

He was a public member of the Board, and held no polygraph examiners license.  From what I understand he got the run around and a lot of double talk from Andy Sheppard and some guy named Noelke, from the Texas Attorney Generals Office. This doesn't shock me, as the OAG's office was pretty protective over the polygraph establishment and it's little monopoly.

My point is, the concerns I was bring up in 2008, were brought up in 2005, probably before I was even licensed that year.  I find it hard to believe that is a coincidence, and I find it hard to believe this problem just went away.  People are just too afraid to say anything about it, and who can blame them.  Look what Andy Sheppard, Maria and the rest of them did to me, and very effectively I might add. 

This also goes to solidify your opinion, and cement it, that it has become a $$ racket and people are protective over it.

I am still going through the minutes of the 2005 Board of Polygraph Examiners meeting.  Got to say, it's interesting reading.  Something in here about TAPE and JPCOT, but want to read more before I talk about it.  But they way t looks, it confirms my suspicion that one is directly connected with the other, if not are the same.
  

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