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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts (Read 54855 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #75 - Jan 4th, 2002 at 3:56am
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J.B.,

Thank you for your holiday wishes; actually, I'm still enjoying an extended holiday. Smiley

I agree with you, as I noted in my post of December 15th, that your hypothesis that an anal sphincter contraction applied as a countermeasure can be detected by a flattening of the respiratory tracings timely with the onset of a response on the electrodermal tracing is testable. But to my knowledge, there is no published research whatsoever (peer-reviewed or otherwise) testing your hypothesis.

This notwithstanding, in your post of January 2nd you assert, "Yes, there is information presented in the tracings that can allow an examiner to practically and reliably distinguish it as a countermeasure." On the basis of what evidence (apart from your say-so) should skeptical readers accept your assertion?
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box J.B. McCloughan
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #76 - Jan 4th, 2002 at 9:00am
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Anonymous,

You wrote:
Quote:
There are polygraphers out there and one in particular that states rather eloquently that he can detect countermeasures by reading of the polygraph charts.  They especially think that they can detect the use of the anal sphincter contraction.  If they truly believe that this is possible, they have been missing thousands of anal sphincter contractions on their charts and have been harming possibly hundreds of people by falsely accusing them of employing countermeasures.


On what basis to you make this statement?

You then wrote:
Quote:
What they fail to realize is: the anal sphincter contraction is a normal reaction of the autonomic nervous system.  When one perceives fear, it is quite normal for the sphincter to contract all by it?s little old self.   This contraction is the body?s way of not shitting on all over you.


This is physiologically incorrect.  The external anal sphincter muscle is voluntarily controlled.  The internal anal sphincter muscle is involuntary.  It is however stimulated by the presence of feces and the voluntary relaxation of the external anal sphincter muscle.  Fear can cause the loss of voluntary muscle control which may result in one defecating.  However, the element that affords you the lack of the defecation process completing is your ability to maintain control over these muscles in a fearful situation. A combination of experience, repetitive training, and physical and mental conditioning play a major role in your ability to productively react in a critical situation. 

I agree with you that people will have different reactions to a perceived perilous situation.  There are however some reactions that are intrinsic in these circumstances.

On a different note.  Stay safe out there and continue to listen to those little hairs on the back of your neck.
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box J.B. McCloughan
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #77 - Jan 4th, 2002 at 9:41am
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George,

I am glad you are still enjoying the well deserved holiday.

You are correct that my hypothesis as it relates to polygraph and the lack of published peer reviewed research for it.  My guess is we will have to wait for a published peer reviewed research study that supports it before some skeptics will accept it.  So I surmise we are at an impasse on this subject until such completion. 

Until then, I will follow the posts on this and other discussion topics and continue to reply when necessary.  I will also continue to check my messages here and at my listed email address to respond to any questions you or anyone else may have.

Take care and stay safe,

J.B.
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2002 at 7:11am by J.B. McCloughan »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #78 - Jan 9th, 2002 at 3:12am
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J.B.,

If we assume for the sake of argument that you are indeed correct about a flattening of the respiratory tracing timely with an electrodermal response being a reliable indication of an anal sphincter contraction employed as a countermeasure, then would not this counter-countermeasure technique of yours be foiled if the examinee were to apply a respiratory countermeasure (artificially producing any of the breathing responses recognized by DoDPI) at the same time as he employs the anal sphincter countermeasure?

Again, assuming for the sake of argument that your counter-countermeasure technique had some merit (I'm not conceding that it does), haven't you told us (from your point of view) how to make the anal sphincter contraction countermeasure failsafe, that is, undetectable from the examination of polygraph charts?
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box J.B. McCloughan
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #79 - Jan 9th, 2002 at 8:38am
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George,

The flattened mark within the respiratory tracing will appear where the anal sphincter muscle contraction is initiated and is not effected by the respiration pattern.  The countermeasure of controlled breathing has no concealing effects on the production of this flattened tracing.  I assume the DoDPI scoreable respiratory reaction you are referring to is holding or blocking?  This respiratory pattern too has no effect on the flattened tracing production or lack there of.

I have only provided a portion of the anal sphincter muscle contraction detection process.  I do not think or see where any of the information I have provided even remotely implies or provides a undetectable anal sphincter muscle contraction employment method.
  

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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #80 - Jan 9th, 2002 at 4:12pm
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J.B. McCloughan wrote on Jan 9th, 2002 at 8:38am:
The flattened mark within the respiratory tracing will appear where the anal sphincter muscle contraction is initiated and is not effected by the respiration pattern.


JB,

The above quoted sentence is a classic example of your nonspeak. It's gibberish. Grammatically, it's a train wreck and neither supports nor condemns your position. It is, however, a continuing illustration of what one respondent so eloquently described as your 'if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit' modus operandi.

I'm sorry if the tone of my writing is disrespectful, but you really need to come to the table armed with facts if you are going to debate the issue at hand.

BT
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #81 - Jan 9th, 2002 at 8:15pm
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J.B. McCloughan wrote on Jan 9th, 2002 at 8:38am:
George,

The flattened mark within the respiratory tracing will appear where the anal sphincter muscle contraction is initiated and is not effected by the respiration pattern.  The countermeasure of controlled breathing has no concealing effects on the production of this flattened tracing.  I assume the DoDPI scoreable respiratory reaction you are referring to is holding or blocking?  This respiratory pattern too has no effect on the flattened tracing production or lack there of.

I have only provided a portion of the anal sphincter muscle contraction detection process.  I do not think or see where any of the information I have provided even remotely implies or provides a undetectable anal sphincter muscle contraction employment method.



J.B.,

What I was suggesting is that any "flattening" of the respiratory tracing that might be associated with contraction of the anal sphincter muscle applied as a polygraph countermeasure could be eliminated by keeping the pneumo tubes moving as one produces one of the breathing reactions recognized by DoDPI chart scoring doctrine. (In this regard, it bears repeating that the "flattening" of which you speak is indistinguishable from blocking or holding, both of which DoDPI holds to be scorable reactions.)

But if I understand you correctly, your claim is that this tell-tale "flattening" will appear (suddenly, as if by magic) in the respiratory tracing(s) when one constricts one's anal sphincter muscle and without regard to one's respiration. This is indeed an amazing claim, and one which, like your claim to be able to divine countermeasures attempts from the contemplation of polygraph charts, you have utterly failed to support with credible evidence (or even a rational argument).
  

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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #82 - Jan 9th, 2002 at 10:47pm
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George,

The flattened mark within the respiratory tracing will appear where the anal sphincter muscle contraction is initiated because of the reflective contraction of the either or both the diaphragm and intercostal muscles.  This would make any other respiratory augmentation irrelevant to the flattened mark seen.  In other words, the respiration continues but the momentary movement or contraction still places its mark.  

Holding or blocking is not the same or relevant to the flattened mark created by an anal sphincter muscle contraction.  There are discernable differences in both the physiological responses and the appearance of the tracings as provided with my explination of the differences in apnea as related to other physiological responses.

Credible evidence is in the eyes of the beholder or finder of fact.  I have provided physiological reasons of why this flattened mark occurs in the tracings and why it is different from other responses or produced responses. Lack of published research on this specific instance dose not null and void those physiological known reasons.  Medical Doctors’ often make life or death decisions based on known or presumably known causes or symptoms of certain medical problems.  Psychologists’ often base their diagnostic opinion on ones psychological health or lack there of on that person’s verbal responses to questions.  Jurors’ base their decision on weather or not a reasonable person could believe without a reasonable doubt what is presented is true.  A juror who is found to have a prejudice toward one of the areas to be examined for decision purposes is usually removed without exemption.  
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2002 at 11:53pm by J.B. McCloughan »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #83 - Jan 10th, 2002 at 4:12am
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J.B.,

While the absence of evidence in support of a claim is no proof of its falsity, absent any evidence to support a claim, there is no compelling reason to accept it as true. This being the case, I think it would be irresponsible for any polygrapher to maintain that a person had contracted his anal sphincter as a polygraph countermeasure based on your unproven methodology. (Likewise, it is irresponsible for a polygrapher to maintain that a person has answered a question truthfully or deceptively on the basis of polygraph chart readings).
  

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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #84 - Jan 10th, 2002 at 6:53am
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George,

Although my hypothesis lacks published peer reviewed research documentation in its application, I believe it does provide sound evidence in its physiological explanation of what will or will not be produced and why.  These elements, defecation reflex being one, are supported by numerous physiology and medical texts and studies.    I have never purported the use of this countermeasure detection method as a thoroughly researched and accepted methodology in polygraph.  However, its use would not be reckless if one could provide compelling and irrefutable physiological evidence to support it.

The last issue you bring up:

"Likewise, it is irresponsible for a polygrapher to maintain that a person has answered a question truthfully or deceptively on the basis of polygraph chart readings)."

I do not agree with this statement and believe it to be a different issue then the one at hand.  I would however be willing to discuss or debate this issue in a different discussion area.
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #85 - Jan 10th, 2002 at 7:39pm
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J.B.,

I would be happy to debate the validity of polygraphy in a separate message thread. This is a debate that the poobahs of the polygraph community (including American Polygraph Association president Skib Webb) seemingly lack the self-confidence to enter.

Feel free to start a new thread on this topic if you wish. You might care to take the arguments against the validity of polygraphy found in Chapter 1 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (and the sources cited there) as a starting point for this debate.
  

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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #86 - Jan 15th, 2002 at 4:44am
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    To the polygraphers,
   Does the trade you are in ever bother you?  I only ask because I have read quite a bit on the subject, and it would seem that there are a lot of "ex" polygraphers who left because of moral convictions of some kind.  Why would this be so?  Also, do you consider it a science?  Genuinely interested...
  
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #87 - Jan 16th, 2002 at 1:55am
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Friendtoall,

Far from bothering me, I find it absolutely fascinating.  I know literally hundreds of examiners in the government, police, and in private practice.  The only examiner I'm aware who claims to have quit for moral reasons is Doug Williams.  And, yes, there is a firm scientific basis to lie detection.  It has been studied for over seven decades with numerous research results reported in peer reviewed scientific journals.

George,

What is the basis for your claim that no field study finding that the polygraph technique works better than chance has ever been published in a peer reviewed journal?  How do you define "peer reviewed" journal?

Peace.

Gordon
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #88 - Jan 16th, 2002 at 9:29am
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Gordon,

My claim is that polygraphy has not been proven to work better than chance by peer-reviewed research conducted under field conditions, not that no field study finding that the polygraph technique works better than chance has ever been published in a peer reviewed journal. For documentation, see David T. Lykken's discussion of polygraph field studies at pp. 133-35 of A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector (2nd ed.). Lykken notes that as of 1998, only four polygraph field studies had been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. (I believe that number remains unchanged today; please correct me if I'm mistaken.) One of those four peer-reviewed field studies was conducted by Charles R. Honts ("Criterion development and validity of the CQT in field application," Journal of General Psychology, 1996, 123, 309-324) and purported to show a 100% accuracy rate, though as Lykken aptly demonstrates, that study was fundamentally flawed in its design and "no sensible reader can imagine that these alleged 'findings' of the Honts study add anything at all to the sum of human knowledge about the true accuracy of the [Control Question Test]."

My definition of a "peer reviewed journal" is the same used by Lykken in his discussion of "Science and the Lie Detector" at pp. 49-51 of A Tremor in the Blood.

Moreover, as discussed in Chapter 1 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, CQT polygraphy can have no validity because it is not a standardized (or standardizable) "test" at all and lacks scientific control. But you would have us believe otherwise. I would be happy to debate the scientific status of polygraphy in a new message thread. Would you care to begin the discussion by explaining the theoretical basis of polygraphy?
« Last Edit: Jan 16th, 2002 at 10:29am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: How Countermeasures are Detected on the Charts
Reply #89 - Jan 16th, 2002 at 11:15pm
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George,

Sorry I have not been able to start the validity discussion topic yet.  I have been quite busy and plan to start it this coming weekend.
  

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