Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
AntiPolygraph.org
Make a Donation

   

Important: We strongly recommend that you use the free Tor Browser Bundle when browsing AntiPolygraph.org. (Here's why.) For an alternative, system-wide implementation of Tor, try The Amnesiac Incognito Live System. For better anonymity, guest posting is enabled, and you may use a fake e-mail address (e.g., nobody@nowhere.com) when posting as a guest.

Be aware that polygraph operators also read the discussions on this message board. If you wish to remain anonymous, be careful not to post enough personal detail that you could be identified (for example, the exact date of your polygraph examination).

Try the chat room to communicate anonymously with other visitors presently online. (Choose a user name and leave the password field blank.)

  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegister  
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Reply Add Poll Send Topic Print
Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection (Read 26140 times)
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Unbeliever

Posts: 5326
The Hague, The Netherlands
Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:55am
Mark & Quote Quote 
On 17 November 2001, The New York Times published an article by David Rohde titled, "In 2 Abandoned Kabul Houses, Some Hints of Al Qaeda Presence." Rohde notes, among other things, that "Documents in English described 'explosives and demolition techniques' and how to blow up power lines. Others, in Arabic, showed how to put a bomb in a suitcase and pass lie detector tests."

The Arabic information on passing lie detector "tests" may be similar to that included in an Al-Qaeda document titled Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad). A translation of the relevant portion is now available on AntiPolygraph.org here.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2002 at 12:55am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
Bitmessage: BM-GtK3fjwGHLLcdRRsYU9eHRdPGxGabbuL
Twitter: georgemaschke
Tel/SMS: 1-424-835-1225
SIP: georgemaschke@ostel.co
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. -- Saul Bellow
WWW George W. Maschke  
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Gender: male
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #1 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 1:03pm
Mark & Quote Quote 

George W. Maschke wrote on Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:55am:
Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist David Rohde's On 17 November 2001, The New York Times published an article by David Rohde titled, "In 2 Abandoned Kabul Houses, Some Hints of Al Qaeda Presence." Rohde notes, among other things, that "Documents in English described 'explosives and demolition techniques' and how to blow up power lines. Others, in Arabic, showed how to put a bomb in a suitcase and pass lie detector tests."

The Arabic information on passing lie detector "tests" may be similar to that included in an Al-Qaeda document titled Mawsu'at al-jihad (Encyclopedia of Jihad). A translation of the relevant portion is now available on AntiPolygraph.org here.


If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?

I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.

I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at Flying magazine?
Back to top
 

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box An American
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #2 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 6:16pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
I am floored. You Mr. Maschke, have finally shown your true colors for what they really are; and not RWB.  If you are responsible for the "hasty" translation of the terrorists information, then you are a party to treason.  We are at war and you have the gall to provide comfort and support to the enemy who may very well be in our country in various sleeper cells and seeking the very type of information that you give them in a "hasty" translation.  What could your motivation possibly be for that? Even if anything that you or any of your followers say in your postings has ANY value, I ask you how this translation could help anyone in our country. As our military poise to strike at the heart of those who would destroy our country, when this is over, I  hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason. I spit on you!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Gender: male
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #3 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 8:50pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
I am floored. You Mr. Maschke, have finally shown your true colors for what they really are; and not RWB.  If you are responsible for the "hasty" translation of the terrorists information, then you are a party to treason.


Oh my goodness.

Quote:
We are at war and you have the gall to provide comfort and support to the enemy who may very well be in our country in various sleeper cells and seeking the very type of information that you give them in a "hasty" translation.


Erm, excuse me? Presuming for the moment that your flight of fantasy is correct, wouldn't Arabic speaking persons prefer the unabridged, non-translated version that was found?

Quote:
...I ask you how this translation could help anyone in our country.


Have you even taken the time to read the friggin thing? I think if you would do so you will have a change of heart concerning the mortal blow you think George just weilded against our nation's security.

Quote:
As our military poise to strike at the heart of those who would destroy our country, when this is over, I  hope to God that you are brought to be held accountable for this that can only be viewed as treason. I spit on you!


I break wind in your general direction!
Back to top
 

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box Retired Vet
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #4 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 8:53pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
I agree with “An American”.  George you just cannot see the forest through the trees!  You feel that our imperfect process in this imperfect world wronged you.  You had a dream to work with the FBI and found out that it was just that a dream.  Now you feel that inorder to vindicate yourself and others like you, those who feel it is an inherent right to obtain everything that one wishes for, you are justified in letting the enemy know that what his manual outlines is correct.

Grow up and realize that we all can’t have everything we want.  We do not live in a utopian world were all is right and just.  Many times the needs of the many must out way the needs of the few.

Yes other publications are out there that support bomb making and such, but why, as an American citizen (which by the way entitles you to run this self-serving site) do you feel the need to aid the enemy?

No doubt you will respond with a self-serving diatribe of scientific and liberalism spunk that those cut from the same cloth that you are will agree with.  I served 21 plus years in this nation’s military to insure that the far left, the middle of the road, and the far right all have the right to be whom they wish.  I sickens me to see you take those rights, which men and women have died for, and disregard them as you over look the responsibility to our country that those rights require.

And  “Beech Trees” ranks right up there with you on this as well.  

     
   “If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame   shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?
I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.
I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at Flying magazine?”


Faceless Visitors?  Come now, Beech you are as Faceless on this site as I am.  At least GM stepped out of the shadows and provided his true name.  I have not, for I really have no desire to have the obliviously Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades from this sight know who I am.   Hey BT, why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your “shame shame shame” mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?  

Just be glad that there are people like my self who still are willing to fight and die for folks like you.  George, it is obliviously the time you spent in the Army was for all the wrong reasons.  You may want to look at seeing if Jane Fonda is interested in becoming part of your family.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box Anonymous
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #5 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 9:45pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Retired Vet,

I am sorry to see a retired vet (I'll assume you are) demonstrate such foolishness in such a pompous manner.  As has been previously pointed out, (1) Should Al-Qaeda have any further interest in their own document, they would much prefer it to be in their native tongue, not an abbreviated English version, and (2) apparently those who prepared this original/untranslated document were enlightened enough to realize (as did the National Academy of Sciences panel) how utterly flawed and simple-minded polygraphy is.  Although I don't expect you to have the reasoning power of the NAS panel, I do expect you to have the common sense of a third world terrorist author.  If you are genuine in your concern for your country, you should do everything you can to make sure that that which has been described by the NAS panel as a danger to national security and a blunt instrument not to be trusted should never be used again.  If you are nothing but a polygrapher hiding behind another name tag, e.g., retired vet, and pretending, albeit irrationally, to be a patriot while questioning other's patriotism, then shame on you...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box beech trees
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 593
Gender: male
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #6 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 10:36pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
I agree with “An American”.  George you just cannot see the forest through the trees!  You feel that our imperfect process in this imperfect world wronged you.  You had a dream to work with the FBI and found out that it was just that a dream.  Now you feel that inorder to vindicate yourself and others like you, those who feel it is an inherent right to obtain everything that one wishes for, you are justified in letting the enemy know that what his manual outlines is correct.


So even uneducated third world mujahideen are correct when they tell their compatriots that the polygraph is useless, and not to fear it? Thank you for publicly admitting the polygraph is useless and that the original Arabic document that was loosely translated into English is correct on that count.

Quote:
Grow up and realize that we all can’t have everything we want.  We do not live in a utopian world were all is right and just.  Many times the needs of the many must out way the needs of the few.


It sounded better when Spock said it.

Even so, if you can somehow manage to string a sentence together that proves how that assertion applies to the pseudo-scientific travesty of polygraphy, I'd be happy to read it.

Quote:
Yes other publications are out there that support bomb making and such, but why, as an American citizen (which by the way entitles you to run this self-serving site) do you feel the need to aid the enemy?


How is translating an Arabic language document that was ALREADY IN THE HANDS OF THE 'ENEMY' into a foreign language aiding that 'enemy'?

Quote:
No doubt you will respond with a self-serving diatribe of scientific and liberalism spunk that those cut from the same cloth that you are will agree with.


Gentle Readers, note how the pro-polygraph side's argument is nothing more than an amorphous blob of plasma which is shaped according to the whimsy of the author. When it suits them, we who object to the use of polygraphy are painted as rank amateurs, hacks who know nothing of science and law enforcement, are uneducated about polygraphy, etc. Now in a stunning turnaround suddenly we are pencil-necked geeks, liberal academicians living in our ivory towers with our heads so full of science and theory we can't think cleary. Utter tripe. Hypocritical nonsense.

Quote:
I served 21 plus years in this nation’s military to insure that the far left, the middle of the road, and the far right all have the right to be whom they wish.  I sickens me to see you take those rights, which men and women have died for, and disregard them as you over look the responsibility to our country that those rights require.


I can't fathom this jingoistic bs, but I will say thank you for your service to our country. If I have as you say the right to be who I wish, then what's the problem here?

Quote:
And  “Beech Trees” ranks right up there with you on this as well.  

     
   “If memory serves, wasn't there a recent spate of 'shame   shame shame' type posts here by anonymous visitors, seeking to blame antipolygraph.org as the source of these Arabic language documents?
I wonder if these faceless visitors publicly condemned the sources for the ENGLISH TEXT manuals on 'explosives and demolition techniques and how to blow up power lines'.
I'm sure they jotted off their letters of protest against French MILAN antitank misssile manufacturers as well. How about the editors at Flying magazine?”

Faceless Visitors?  Come now, Beech you are as Faceless on this site as I am.  At least GM stepped out of the shadows and provided his true name.  I have not, for I really have no desire to have the obliviously Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades from this sight know who I am.


Ditto that, except substitute "black clad, kevlar armored, helmet wearing thugs" for "Anti American, Sunshine Patriot, So Called Civil Liberty Crusades"

Quote:
Hey BT, why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your “shame shame shame” mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?


Hey dillweed, it wasn't me who uttered the 'shame shame shame' mantra. If you stopped blowing steam off you'd see just how utterly wrong you are on this subject.

Chill out!

Back to top
 

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." ~ Thomas Paine
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box An American
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #7 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:01pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Please answer ther question Mr. Maschke.  Was it you who provided the "hasty" translation?  If you did, please attempt to justify your actions.  What possible value could this have other than to provide those who speak that language who CHOOSE to read the "hasty" translation provided by a traitor, or to those in your midst who support you and who also must assume responsibility for any benefit this "hasty" translation provides to the enemies of this country. There is NO reasonable or unreasonable explanation. You have turned your back on those who would want to support you (i.e. Libertarian, Two block).  It would appear that the only support you have maintained would be BT, and God only knows what motivates this person.  Perhaps the two of you can collaborate in your cell together on Mein Kampf II
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box obewankannobe
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #8 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:15pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
After reading many of the posts about this subject I believe that the polygraph is the best technolgy for forced interrogation NOT truth  finding.  The next best method of interrogation (not necessarily TRUTH) Instead  would be the rubber hose and the electrical generator to the genitals trick instead. Polygraphs are only an extension of deceiving the one receiving the probing nothing else.  Any one of us can be found guilty of anything under these conditions.  Remember our great country has the greatest number of individuals in prison in the WORLD.  With such a liberal tool open to interpretation WE are all at risk of becoming GUILTY to such meaningless efforts.

Hell even plain copiers and physical abuse have been used to convince and convict ignorant persons of the abilities of the device to determine truth. 

Maybe this is could the fallback base technology as it were like it is in the 3rd world where we teach it to foreign police and military.

Sadly, there is no REAL science in polygraphs unless thinking makes it so!  hahahahh 

Its all academic untill it happens to YOU!  Then its personal.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box obewankannobe
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
mission statement of the APA (hahahahah)
Reply #9 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:19pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
GOALS OF THE APA (the spanish inquisition lives TODAY) Cry

http://www.polygraph.org/apa1rev.htm

Note: your full-text citation has been replaced with a link to the referenced material -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2002 at 4:49am by Administrator »  
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box Retired Vet
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #10 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:21pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
Anonymous, you stated as follows:

“I am sorry to see a retired vet (I'll assume you are) demonstrate such foolishness in such a pompous manner.”

Assume as you wish, and rest assured that I am a retired Vet.  Foolish and Pompous am I?  I think not.  Wise in the reality of the REAL world I am.  The point of my post you missed in its entirety

I care not that Al-Qaeda can, or for that matter, would read George’s post or the translation it references.  What I care about is the fact that those who live in this nation and are afforded the same rights and liberties that the victims of 9/11 lost, feel that is permissible to further their cause at the cost of others.

Yes the NAS did find that the polygraph lacked validity; but it failed to address the utility of the polygraph.  Yes I am a polygraph examiner currently working for a federal agency.  No I am not hiding behind another nametag.  Should we depend on it whole-heartedly?  No, but it is a valuable tool to be used.  Should we stop using it altogether because some have been denied a security clearance or position because of it?  No.  Life is not fair and we all can not have everything we desire.

You Anonymous are both Foolish and Pompous.  You say I should be ashamed to say I am a patriot because I question the patriotism of others.  You don’t expect me to have the reasoning power of the NAS?  I may not have a PHD (Piled Higher and Deeper, in some cases) but I posses the wisdom gained through time and experience as well as education, something that many of those who are in the world of academia seem to lack.  

Your innuendos towards me hiding behind Patriotism are both incorrect and repugnant.  I offer up the same suggestion to you as I did to Beech Trees: Why not go to Washington DC and stand by the Vietnam War Memorial and spout your “shame shame shame” mantra to the Vets, families, and friends of those who paid the supreme sacrifice for you, George, Mark, and all the other whiners on this site?    

I get the sense that my post hit close to home with you Anonymous.  To quote Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, scene 2, “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”.








Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box obewankannobe
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 3
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #11 - Nov 17th, 2002 at 11:33pm
Mark & Quote Quote 
SmileyOUR government contributes to this TERRORISM by training and equiping other FOREIGN nations FRIEND and FOE.  Saddam got his WMD from us and used them on his people when he was an ally of ours.  Did we say anything about lack of respect for human life at that time? HELL NO.  We make our money off of war and death abroad and at home if you don't know. 

Sadly our soldiers are used and then discarded by these people (our leaders) that benefit from these victories at the expense of our soldiers lives and health (remember Desert Storm and Gulf War syndrome). 

People are expendable and TRUTH detection a perverted farce.... Why?  Because TRUTH Alice is whatever they want it to be....

WAKE UP become conscious
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Unbeliever

Posts: 5326
The Hague, The Netherlands
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #12 - Nov 18th, 2002 at 4:40am
Mark & Quote Quote 
It has been asked what constructive purpose posting an English-language translation of Arabic-language Al-Qaeda documentation on lie detection could possibly serve. Considering that the polygraph has been used extensively by law enforcement and intelligence officials in the interrogation of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives, I think that it may be useful to document what Al-Qaeda may have taught its members regarding lie detection.

In the translated portion of the Encyclopedia of Jihad, we see that they have been taught that lie detection is a sham: "Lie detectors are nothing more than a myth to trick the accused. To the extent that the accused does not believe in its effectiveness, it will not be effective against him." Those in the law enforcement and intelligence communities who might contemplate the use of polygraphy to judge the veracity of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives may wish to take this into consideration.

With regard to concealed information tests, as opposed to lie detection, it's worth noting that the Al-Qaeda documentation does not cast doubt on the Searching Peak of Tension (SPOT) technique, describing with apparent admiration how Avicenna used it a millenium ago. Any polygrapher administering such a test to a known or suspected Al-Qaeda operative might wish to make reference to the anecdote in the pre-test phase.

As for the suggestion that publishing this information is somehow treasonous, I suggest that concerned individuals consult the U.S. Department of Justice (which has published a much more extensive translation of an Al-Qaeda Training Manual).
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2002 at 7:29am by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
E-mail: maschke@antipolygraph.org
PGP Public Key: 316A947C
Bitmessage: BM-GtK3fjwGHLLcdRRsYU9eHRdPGxGabbuL
Twitter: georgemaschke
Tel/SMS: 1-424-835-1225
SIP: georgemaschke@ostel.co
Encrypted voice and text chat (XMPP via Jitsi): georgemaschke@jit.si
Postal mail: Van Trigtstraat 53, 2597 VX The Hague, The Netherlands
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep. -- Saul Bellow
WWW George W. Maschke  
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box betrayed
Guest


Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #13 - Nov 18th, 2002 at 8:11am
Mark & Quote Quote 

George W. Maschke wrote on Nov 18th, 2002 at 4:40am:
It has been asked what constructive purpose posting an English-language translation of Arabic-language Al-Qaeda documentation on lie detection could possibly serve. Considering that the polygraph has been used extensively by law enforcement and intelligence officials in the interrogation of suspected Al-Qaeda operatives, I think that it may be useful to document what Al-Qaeda may have taught its members regarding lie detection.


You also must think it useful  to provide a translation of your manual for Al Queda in Arabic, since you called for it in a different thread:
Quote:
if anyone has the requisite linguistic skills and is willing to contribute their time and effort, such translations could be made available on AntiPolygraph.org in the future.

Polygraphy is a danger to civil liberties not only in the United States, but around the world. Translations of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector might be especially useful in the languages of other countries where polygraphy has gained a foothold. Some of these countries have less due process guarantees than the United States, and polygraph abuse may be expected:

Afrikaans - One of the official languages of South Africa, where polygraphy is widely relied on, including for private sector pre-employment screening (which is for the most part banned in the U.S.).

Arabic & Hebrew - Official languages of the State of Israel, where the polygraph is entrenched.

Chinese - After the United States, the People's Republic of China has the largest number of polygraph examiners. Taiwan and Singapore also use polygraphy.

French - An official language of Canada, where polygraphy is widely relied on by law enforcement.

Spanish - Spoken by many in the United States.

Anyone who would be interested in translating The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (or perhaps an abridgment of it) into any of the above (or any other language) is invited to send e-mail to info@antipolygraph.org.


Given the recent rise of conservatives in congress, the Patriot Act, and the hysteria surrounding the preservation of national security,  it will be interesting to see just how long this web site lasts.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 550
Re: Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Reply #14 - Nov 18th, 2002 at 9:50am
Mark & Quote Quote 
Quote:
Given the recent rise of conservatives in congress, the Patriot Act, and the hysteria surrounding the preservation of national security,  it will be interesting to see just how long this web site lasts.


Dear betrayed,

Your observation could be quite correct but it is a shame to have national security considerations based on hysteria and not sound facts.

Regards.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2002 at 10:06am by Fair Chance »  
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Reply Add Poll Send Topic Print
Al-Qaeda Documentation on Lie Detection
Open Live Preview Live Preview


You can resize the message area by dragging the right- or bottom border.
                       
Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1: