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Topic Summary - Displaying 19 post(s).
Posted by: anotherguest
Posted on: Jan 12th, 2020 at 6:20am
  Mark & Quote
Byron Johns wrote on Jan 12th, 2020 at 2:01am:
I do not have any personal experience with the CBP.  However, when it comes to the U.S. Intelligence Community, if you "fail" the pre-employment polygraph, which they consider part of the background investigation (BI), they keep the records FOREVER and you are BANNED FOR LIFE.  I was told this by both the FBI (in writing) and by the CIA (over the phone) when I tried to reapply in 2017 after being rejected by both agencies some seven years prior.   You can re-apply, sure, but when you get to the stage when they run your name and SSN in their own system, it is game over.   Here is my story regarding reapplying after a failed poly or BI in 2017.


Yea, the record will become permanent. By how they word it, it seems like they won't use it anymore after a minimum of two years for any future investigations. There are a few posters on the Delphi BP forum who posted about failing 5 to 10 years ago; They reapplied after that amount of time and passed the poly the second go around.  By going off their experience, it seems like they don't use the failed poly against you.


Byron Johns wrote on Jan 12th, 2020 at 2:01am:
Unfortunately, polygraphers love these "minor admissions".  It gives them something to dig into.  Check out this thread from 2017 where the OP, fbx2, made a "minor admission" to spanking his cat, and was subsequently rejected for the job.  He may have had bad luck and his polygrapher was a member of PETA!  Next time, omit minor admissions, do not give the polygraphers ANY admissions.


Yea, the polygrapher ended up trying to dig into it, and making it seem like it was bigger than it was.... I held my ground and kept telling the polygrapher for almost two hours, that nothing else occused other than what I mentioned. Hopefully when I get the official email, I will have a chance to appeal it. If I do go through it again in a few years, I will definitely not add anything or repeat what I've already admitted to....
Posted by: Byron Johns
Posted on: Jan 12th, 2020 at 2:01am
  Mark & Quote
Quote:
Would you happen to know if they'll refer back to the previous poly for any admissions if I take a new one. Seeing as they say, they'll keep it for that long for future background investigations; I'm leaning towards no, but I'm sure they could always access it.


I do not have any personal experience with the CBP.  However, when it comes to the U.S. Intelligence Community, if you "fail" the pre-employment polygraph, which they consider part of the background investigation (BI), they keep the records FOREVER and you are BANNED FOR LIFE.  I was told this by both the FBI (in writing) and by the CIA (over the phone) when I tried to reapply in 2017 after being rejected by both agencies some seven years prior.   You can re-apply, sure, but when you get to the stage when they run your name and SSN in their own system, it is game over.   Here is my story regarding reapplying after a failed poly or BI in 2017.

Quote:
   My admissions were so minor and had no significance to me, that it wouldn't have even bothered me if I didn't say it.  I feel like I failed because I gave them something to write.

Unfortunately, polygraphers love these "minor admissions".  It gives them something to dig into.  Check out this thread from 2017 where the OP, fbx2, made a "minor admission" to spanking his cat, and was subsequently rejected for the job.  He may have had bad luck and his polygrapher was a member of PETA!  Next time, omit minor admissions, do not give the polygraphers ANY admissions.

Quote:
If I do go through it again in two years, I really don't want to give the same admissions again, but I'm not sure if they refer back to it, and might just come back to me and say, "Well you said this over two years ago.". 

This is exactly what they will do in the Intelligence Community.  Actually, they will not let you get that far.  After you reapply, and if they even consider your application again, they will run your name and info through their system, see that you were rejected before because of the poly/BI, and just reject you again.  I was lucky to get another info session and interview with the CIA in 2017, seven years after my 2010 polygraph snafu that screwed up my whole security clearance career something rotten.  Even with seven years passing, and having obtained TS/SCI from the Department of State, even though a DS&T office in the CIA wanted to hire me, the CIA Office of Security ran my info and saw my 2010 polygraph failures and had me rejected.  The CIA recruitment office told me this over the phone, too bad I didn't get it in writing.  See the same link I posted above.
Posted by: anotherguest
Posted on: Jan 11th, 2020 at 9:07am
  Mark & Quote
Thank you, George!
I may or may not give it another shot in two years. I pulled this off their website.

"The suitability information provided by and collected on applicants, including CBP polygraph exam results, will be kept for a minimum of two (2) years for use in future background investigations."

Would you happen to know if they'll refer back to the previous poly for any admissions if I take a new one. Seeing as they say, they'll keep it for that long for future background investigations; I'm leaning towards no, but I'm sure they could always access it.

I wish I would of read  the book on here before my exam. I would of made no admissions. My admissions were so minor and had no significance to me, that it wouldn't have even bothered me if I didn't say it.  I feel like I failed because I gave them something to write. If I do go through it again in two years, I really don't want to give the same admissions again, but I'm not sure if they refer back to it, and might just come back to me and say, "Well you said this over two years ago.". 

Thanks!

George W. Maschke wrote on Dec 26th, 2019 at 8:01am:
anotherguest,

As you'll note at page 128 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, we advise everyone against applying for any federal position that requires a pre-employment polygraph "test."

I think one is better off having just one failed polygraph on one's record than two.

For those who choose to ignore this advice, while I think applicants for positions of public trust have an ethical duty to answer relevant questions truthfully, they are under no obligation to volunteer irrelevant information, and are wise not to do so.

Bear in mind, however, that anything you've previously told your CBP polygraph operator is now a matter of record.

Posted by: anotherguest
Posted on: Dec 26th, 2019 at 8:24pm
  Mark & Quote
Wow. I just read parts of TLBTLD and now I regret not doing so before going to take my poly a few months ago.  Make no admissions however minor they are.  That was the mistake I made. I made a few insignificant minor, as as the book said; they spun it out of proportions.  I really feel like I would of passed if I didn't say anything. Now I'm doubting if I should go back for another try in a couple of years.

George W. Maschke wrote on Dec 26th, 2019 at 8:01am:
anotherguest,

As you'll note at page 128 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, we advise everyone against applying for any federal position that requires a pre-employment polygraph "test."

I think one is better off having just one failed polygraph on one's record than two.

For those who choose to ignore this advice, while I think applicants for positions of public trust have an ethical duty to answer relevant questions truthfully, they are under no obligation to volunteer irrelevant information, and are wise not to do so.

Bear in mind, however, that anything you've previously told your CBP polygraph operator is now a matter of record.

Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Dec 26th, 2019 at 8:01am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
anotherguest,

As you'll note at page 128 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, we advise everyone against applying for any federal position that requires a pre-employment polygraph "test."

I think one is better off having just one failed polygraph on one's record than two.

For those who choose to ignore this advice, while I think applicants for positions of public trust have an ethical duty to answer relevant questions truthfully, they are under no obligation to volunteer irrelevant information, and are wise not to do so.

Bear in mind, however, that anything you've previously told your CBP polygraph operator is now a matter of record.
Posted by: anotherguest
Posted on: Dec 26th, 2019 at 7:27am
  Mark & Quote
I also failed a few months ago. I just read in a different thread from another poster, that he made no admission, regardless of how small they were.  I made a few insignificant admissions and it seemed like, that was the reason why failed me. I kept getting questioned about it afterwards.  If you all know what it was, you'd laugh. It was minor and was irrelevant, but being the honest person I am, I just threw it out there.  I didn't know.

If I go and take it again, do you suggest I make those admissions again, or simply don't mention anything at all? Gracias!

George W. Maschke wrote on Dec 24th, 2019 at 10:28am:
justhere,

I have seen nothing in CBP's polygraph policy documentation that suggests prior results and files are ever discarded.

I don't know whether it's standard for polygraph operators to ask the subject if (s)he is willing to come back for another one after telling him/her that he/she has failed, but it seems to be a common practice.

For reference, you'll find documentation of CBP's current polygraph practices here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#TES-C

You'll also find a copy of the 2010 CBP polygraph unit's handbook, which predates the adoption of the TES-C screening format, as well as other CBP polygraph policy documentation, here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#cbp

Posted by: justhere
Posted on: Dec 26th, 2019 at 12:12am
  Mark & Quote
Thank you for the reply. I asked that because I'm trying to figure out how to go about it in a few years if I do decide to go through the process again.

George W. Maschke wrote on Dec 24th, 2019 at 10:28am:
justhere,

I have seen nothing in CBP's polygraph policy documentation that suggests prior results and files are ever discarded.

I don't know whether it's standard for polygraph operators to ask the subject if (s)he is willing to come back for another one after telling him/her that he/she has failed, but it seems to be a common practice.

For reference, you'll find documentation of CBP's current polygraph practices here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#TES-C

You'll also find a copy of the 2010 CBP polygraph unit's handbook, which predates the adoption of the TES-C screening format, as well as other CBP polygraph policy documentation, here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#cbp

Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Dec 24th, 2019 at 10:28am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
justhere,

I have seen nothing in CBP's polygraph policy documentation that suggests prior results and files are ever discarded.

I don't know whether it's standard for polygraph operators to ask the subject if (s)he is willing to come back for another one after telling him/her that he/she has failed, but it seems to be a common practice.

For reference, you'll find documentation of CBP's current polygraph practices here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#TES-C

You'll also find a copy of the 2010 CBP polygraph unit's handbook, which predates the adoption of the TES-C screening format, as well as other CBP polygraph policy documentation, here:

https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#cbp
Posted by: justhere
Posted on: Dec 24th, 2019 at 9:38am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I forget to add.  Is it standard for all the examiners to ask if we're willing to come back for another test to everyone when they're told that they failed?
Posted by: justhere
Posted on: Dec 24th, 2019 at 9:35am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
So that's what the nodding is for. I took the poly awhile back and for a few charts, the test administrator had me do the same thing.  I was wondering what the purpose of it was. The thing is, I didn't do any countermeasures.  I answered everything honestly.

After the last few charts, I was told that I'm failing on one of the question. I have a very clean background. I'm hoping for a chance to re-test, but I highly doubt that I'll get it. The examiner just said, that they'll send my file to the OPR and they'll decide.

I have a few questions and hopefully someone could answer.

I know I'll have to wait two years to take it again. After two years, do they discard the prior results and the file? I'm asking that because I told them a few things that are insignificant, but in the end, it was what I kept getting questioned about.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2019 at 6:32am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
CBP's pre-employment polygraph screening technique is called the Test for Espionage, Sabotage, and Corruption (TES-C). You'll find documentation, including the questions asked, here:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2018/06/22/u-s-customs-and-border-protection-poly...
Posted by: Anonymous
Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2019 at 6:28am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Got mine in [redacted] days, can ypu hive me a heads upf of the questions that will be asked?

Thanks

Posted by: el mal arte
Posted on: Nov 29th, 2019 at 7:22am
  Mark & Quote
Quote:
Thank you very, very much. The only "countermeasures" I used was measured breathing to try to allieve my anxiety. I always do that to relax myself to help get through these exams. Screw them. I bet they moved the tubes to illicit a fail response even though I was passing.

The idea of telling you to nod your head while answering could also have nefarious purposes. Even with the "silent answer test," instructing you to make physical movements when answering questions is not supported in any polygraph doctrine that I am familiar with.

But your attitude is correct. With the exception of Baltimore City PD, it's tough to think of a less desirable place to work in law enforcement than CBP. I'd suggest that you focus on improving your CV and apply with agencies that offer more intellectually stimulating work. Preferably, those that do not force applicants to submit to this degrading pseudoscientific ritual.
Posted by: Michelle6788
Posted on: Nov 28th, 2019 at 7:38pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Thank you very, very much. The only "countermeasures" I used was measured breathing to try to allieve my anxiety. I always do that to relax myself to help get through these exams. Screw them. I bet they moved the tubes to illicit a fail response even though I was passing.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Nov 28th, 2019 at 8:47am
  Mark & Quote
Quote:
I've taken seven polygraphs in my life. All of them for LEO positions. I have passed all polygraphs except the two I have taken with CBP (3 years apart). All of the examiners use the same software and technique. They all use the same physical equipment. However, some how, miraculously, I fail CBP and pass all others without even a question of deception? The CBP examiner claims I lied about "serious crimes" and "drug usage". Both times with CBP I was accused of lying about those same questions but never when asked those questions with other departments. What could CBP possibly be doing differently that they show readings there and no one else does?


CBP polygraph operators may be under pressure to produce pass rates that track with the organizational average of about 1:3. A CBP polygraph operator who passed more than this ratio might face unwelcome scrutiny.

In addition, with respect to your second CBP polygraph, the safest thing for your polygraph operator to do was to confirm the result of your prior CBP polygraph.

Note that while CBP does hire contractors to perform polygraph interrogations, who are handsomely paid for conducting this pseudoscientific ritual, not all CBP polygraph operators are contractors. Many are federal employees.

Quote:
Most importantly, can someone knowledgeable explain this strange behavior for me please-

During my recent CBP polygraph the examiner asked me seven series of questions. After each series they released the cuff and then came over to me and completely adjusted the pneumograph tubes to different areas. At one point both tubes were on top of each other very high up by my breasts. Why would they keep moving the tubes after each series of questions then say I failed?


It is not normal to have to adjust the pneumograph tubes after each chart collection, and I don't know what could account for this. You'll find the federal polygraph school's instructions for placement of pneumograph tubes at pages 4-6 of the document, Attachment and Placement of Polygraph Instrument Recording Sensors.

Quote:
They also told me to not answer the questions verbally at one point and to only "nod my head yes or no". They said they would be watching me and could see the subtle movements but in me peripheral vision I could see every time that they were only looking at the monitor and not me. What's up with that?


This is the so-called "Silent Answer Test" that is sometimes employed when the polygraph operator suspects that the subject is employing polygraph countermeasures. We address it at p. 165 of the 5th edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:

Quote:
Silent Answer Test

In  this  technique  (Matte, 1996),  which  is  apparently  intended  to catch  examinees  off  guard,  the  examinee  is  told  to  remain  silent during the “in test” phase and to answer the questions in his/her head. Just as in normal polygraph examinations in which one answers out loud, the way to pass the Silent Answer Test is produce stronger  reactions  to  the  “control”  questions  than  to  the  “relevant” questions. Don’t do anything differently.


You also ask:

Quote:
Then finally, at one point the lead of one of the pneumograph tubes "broke" and I was told to sit outside while they fixed it. This happened on both of my CBP polys only. Both times they moved the tubes constantly and something "broke" at some point. What the heck?


It is unusual for a pneumograph tube (most likely the bead chain) to break during any particular polygraph session. It is even more strange that this occurred during both of your CBP polygraph interrogations.
Posted by: Michelle6788
Posted on: Nov 28th, 2019 at 4:55am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Thank you for the responses. I get the money factor Doug but why would they fail me twice? Clearly they see my commitment if I came back to endure more of this a second time. Wouldn't that prove to them I have nothing to hide even more? What are your thoughts on the constant movement of the breathing tubes after every set of questions? How could the results be usable if the equipment was always moved.
Posted by: Dan Mangan
Posted on: Nov 28th, 2019 at 1:07am
  Mark & Quote
Michelle,

Allow me to interject some perspective...

Polygraph "testing," at its very best, is a crapshoot.

The result is nothing more than the examiner's semi-educated guess.

As for the examiner's antics and accusations that occur in the polygraph suite, it's all theater -- in my opinion.

I've been a member of the American Polygraph Association since 2004, and have tried repeatedly to bring enlightenment and reason to the APA's political machine. All to little avail.

As Doug Williams has so succinctly pointed out, polygraph "testing" can be largely about money. I agree.

But that's just my opinion, based on 15+ years of experience and observation.

As an aside, it's very interesting... Whenever I post on this site I soon get a flurry of inquiries requesting special "help."

I find the timing to be most queer.

Thus far, not one such needy individual has been able to pass my authenticity test.

Strange, no?

Posted by: Doug Williams
Posted on: Nov 28th, 2019 at 12:07am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
The company that administers polygraph exams for the CBP charges $2200 per test so they have a vested interest in failing as many people as they possibly can simply because the more people they fail, the more tests they run to fill the openings. It’s simple math.
Posted by: Michelle6788
Posted on: Nov 27th, 2019 at 6:36pm
  Mark & Quote
I've taken seven polygraphs in my life. All of them for LEO positions. I have passed all polygraphs except the two I have taken with CBP (3 years apart). All of the examiners use the same software and technique. They all use the same physical equipment. However, some how, miraculously, I fail CBP and pass all others without even a question of deception? The CBP examiner claims I lied about "serious crimes" and "drug usage". Both times with CBP I was accused of lying about those same questions but never when asked those questions with other departments. What could CBP possibly be doing differently that they show readings there and no one else does?

Most importantly, can someone knowledgeable explain this strange behavior for me please-

During my recent CBP polygraph the examiner asked me seven series of questions. After each series they released the cuff and then came over to me and completely adjusted the pneumograph tubes to different areas. At one point both tubes were on top of each other very high up by my breasts. Why would they keep moving the tubes after each series of questions then say I failed? They also told me to not answer the questions verbally at one point and to only "nod my head yes or no". They said they would be watching me and could see the subtle movements but in me peripheral vision I could see every time that they were only looking at the monitor and not me. What's up with that?

Then finally, at one point the lead of one of the pneumograph tubes "broke" and I was told to sit outside while they fixed it. This happened on both of my CBP polys only. Both times they moved the tubes constantly and something "broke" at some point. What the heck?

 
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