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Topic Summary - Displaying 21 post(s).
Posted by: RCMPPEPRemoved
Posted on: Aug 21st, 2022 at 7:16am
  Mark & Quote
"The day of the glorious red serge and everybody wants to be a Mountie; everybody does not want to be a police officer today or an RCMP member."

Known as Depot Division, the RCMP academy in Regina consolidated and rescheduled training this spring to deal with fewer recruits. Once a pre-employment requirement, polygraph tests are also being dropped.

"The RCMP is in for a reckoning," Michael Boudreau, a criminologist at St. Thomas University in Fredericton told CTV National News. "I think the RCMP needs to overhaul its entire organization and to rethink what it does as policing."

"They need to be out of policing provinces and out of policing municipalities," Robert Gordon, a criminologist at Simon Fraser University added.

Manitoba's justice minister told CTV News Winnipeg he is very concerned with the province's high RCMP vacancy rate, and plans to continue raising the issue with the federal government to secure more officers.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/rcmp-vacancy-rate-highest-in-manitoba-nunavut-and-...

Posted by: RCMPPolygraphRemoved
Posted on: Aug 21st, 2022 at 6:59am
  Mark & Quote
The polygraph and PEP has now been removed from the RCMP recruitment process as of summer 2022.

"Regina’s RCMP Academy, known as the Depot Department, has integrated and rescheduled training this spring to reduce the number of new hires. When it comes to pre-employment requirements, the polygraph test is also removed.


“We are actively adopting RCMP,” RCMP spokeswoman Robin Percival told CTV National News. “Work is underway to modernize the applicant’s evaluation process while maintaining rigor.”

Source: https://canadiantrends.ca/rcmp-vacancy-rate-highest-in-manitoba-nunavut-and-b-c/

Polygraph PEP is not longer listed in application and selection process:
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/how-to-apply

...
Application process
Once you have successfully completed your vision and hearing exams and you have the forms confirming that you meet the minimum requirements, you are ready to apply! Please keep your completed forms until they are requested from you. In order to help you along the way, we have created the following checklist to help you understand the recruiting process and to help you keep organized.

Step One: Get the ball rolling: Submit an online application
All applicants must apply online.

You will need to create a GC jobs account to complete your online application.

The RCMP job posting for police officers is on the Government of Canada's Jobs website. To find the posting:

Search "police officer" under "Job title"
Look under the "Jobs open to the public" tab in the search results
You may be screened out of the recruitment process:

if you do not have your vision and hearing assessments and vision and hearing forms completed
as a result of the responses provided in your online application
If your application is screened out at this step, you must wait six months before re-applying.

If you have questions about the application process, you are encouraged to attend a recruiting event or to contact a recruiter before submitting your online application.

Step Two: Learn more about a career in policing: Attend a career presentation and complete the RCMP online entrance assessment
Once you have been screened into the process, you will be invited to attend a career presentation and complete the RCMP Online Entrance Assessment.

During the career presentation, you will learn more about a career in policing and you will be able to discuss any questions or concerns you may have with a proactive recruiter.

You will receive an email from a recruiter that will include the link to the RCMP Online Entrance Assessment. You will have 14 days to complete the online assessment from the date you receive the link.

Step Three: All that paperwork: Submit the required forms and documents
If the RCMP selects you to continue in the process, you will be asked to submit all forms and documents within 2 business days. Do not attempt to submit these forms and documents until they are requested from you.
Step Four: Tell us about yourself: Complete a suitability assessment and undergo a Right Fit Interview
This stage assesses whether you possess the core competencies, core values, and traits required of an RCMP police officer. This stage consists of two interviews:

the RMAQ (Regular Member Applicant Questionnaire) Interview and;
the RFI (Right Fit Interview).
The RMAQ Interview lets us know if there are actions or behaviours, from your past, that could prevent you from becoming an RCMP police officer. Following a review of your RMAQ, an interview will assess the severity, recency and repetitive nature of your actions. A heavy focus is placed on honesty. It is strongly recommended that you disclose all actions and behaviors in your RMAQ.

The RFI is an interview designed to evaluate your ability to meet standards in eight core competencies. You will be required to respond to both behavioural and situational questions using the STAR and ARC articulation methods.

Step Five: Honesty is the best policy: Complete various background checks
Your employers (previous and current) and references will be contacted as part of the background check. It will contribute to verifying your honesty.

Step Six: Make sure you are healthy: Undergo medical and psychological assessments
You will need to see RCMP-designated physicians and psychologists for a health assessment, including full medical and psychological exams. The RCMP will cover the cost of these exams. If successful at this stage, you will receive your medical clearance.

Step Seven: You're almost at the finish line: Undergo a field investigation and security assessment
The final step in the application process is a field investigation and security assessment. The RCMP will conduct a thorough investigation into your background to help assess your suitability. If successful, you will receive your security clearance.

Once you have passed all the application and assessment steps you will be contacted to attend the RCMP Cadet Training Program.

Returning applicants
If you applied to become a police officer of the RCMP in the past and would like to resume your application process, please review the process for returning applicants.

To speak with a recruiter before submitting your application, you can attend one of the many recruiting events held across the country.

Questions about your application?
Contact your local recruiting office.
Posted by: TENET
Posted on: Aug 20th, 2022 at 3:18am
  Mark & Quote
Most RCMP PEP polygraphs are now done by contractors. The pre-test interview procedure (going over the RMAQ questionnaire) varies. Sometimes you are left alone with question categories under the different form sections to think about what else you might want to add and then write it down after some initial prompting; other times they go through all the questions one by one with you. I suspect they will phase out the polygraph over the next few years. Mention of it has already been removed from the "How to apply to become an RCMP officer" page at:
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/how-to-apply

The recruiter will just quote what is in the applicant PEP booklet or information sheet (which incidentally was initially developed by a US polygraph company word for word).

The machine does not and cannot show deception. The machine shows a physiological response which can be deemed a significant response by the examiner. If the examiner really doesn't like you, then he (never saw a she), might conduct a post-test interrogation essentially asking which question you think that you reacted to the most, why do you think you reacted to that question, and asking you, "when was the last time that you...", looking for any admissions. If the examiner likes you then nothing will be said and the Significant Response (SR) will simply be noted in the report. There's a reason why the PEP is done by independent contractors and it's to avoid that first scenario.

In both cases it's not possible to really "fail" the lifestyle scope polygraph step without making significant admissions (the exception being US CI (counterintelligence) scope polygraphs where you can fail by chart point scoring alone). It's just an enhanced lifestyle background interview with props and a flair for the dramatic. The report then goes to recruiting to review. Before, when they had RMs like Sergeants do it in house, that person could literally pick up the phone, call the Recruiting Corporal and influence the file, but now it's probably all contractors submitting a written report reviewed by a civilian analyst. At best it can be inconclusive solely going by the machine so you might not "pass". What would happen is that someone in recruiting would review the report (for new disclosures) and decide if it's a deferral or whether you continue on to the next step.

It used to be something like this in general:
NRPC – Suitability reviews the RMAQ.

NRPC – Processing will save the results to the applicant's folder.
If the applicant is not recommended, then the application is closed.
If the applicant is recommended, then the application will move forward to TVS.
TVS will administer the PEP.

NRPC – Processing will save the results to the applicant's folder and the application will move forward to NRPC - Suitability.
NRPC – Suitability reviews the PEP results.

NRPC – Processing will save the results to the applicant's folder.
If the applicant is not recommended, then the application is closed.
If the applicant is recommended, then the application will move forward to DSB and divisional Health Services, concurrently.


No one can identify true "signs of deception", not the machine, not the examiner, and sometimes not even the applicant. It's a true wilderness of mirrors!

Here is an example of how accurate the RCMP pre-employment polygraph PEP examination is:
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/alleged-voyeur-mountie-is-also-a-suspe...
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/b-c-mountie-accused-of-sex-offences-involving-minors-plead...
https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2020/07/16/suspended-richmond-rcmp-officer-charged...
https://www.nsnews.com/local-news/suspended-richmond-rcmp-officer-charged-with-v...

Seangio began his training at the RCMP Depot in June 2016 and later that year was posted to the Richmond, B.C. detachment, one of the largest in the country.

Indeed, many of the charges against Seangio laid by Ottawa police predate him becoming an RCMP police officer.

Ottawa police allege the offences span from 2011 to 2018.
Seangio joined the Richmond RCMP in 2016 (this means he did the PEP within 12 months of June 2016). Yet, the suspended RCMP officer has been charged with 34 counts of voyeurism and three counts of sexual assault involving six women known to him. According to the Ottawa Police Service (OPS), the alleged offences in Ottawa occurred between 2011 and 2018 while he was living in that city.


The RCMP Member went through the PEP stage AFTER the Ottawa incidents took place. This is probably the best example of how useless the RCMP PEP stage and polygraph truly is. It detected nothing and the guy most likely had zero training about how to defeat it. It's true, you only need to be relaxed and confident to pass. And of course, make no admissions (the only way to really "fail" the RCMP PEP).

P.S.

Here is a great report about the RCMP (Regular Member) RM recruitment process. I think it's worth a read:


https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/integrated-assessment-regular-member-recruitment

The most interesting piece is this "2018: Acceptance of "Significant Reactions" during the PEP". It basically means the polygraph is as useless as everyone knew it was and the only way to "fail" that step is if you make disqualifying admissions, which would disqualify you before the PEP ever happened or shortly thereafter if disclosed later. In other words, it's literally impossible to fail the PEP from the machine results or the polygraph operator's opinion alone. It's not like in the movies at all. I have personally done polygraphs several times with different examiners and I know it can be completely different depending on who does it. Or wait..."2019: Pilot to implement Eye Detect technology as a way to supplement the PEP"; maybe it really is like in Blade Runner and The Recruit! If you want to become an Intelligence Analyst, all of those positions are now civilian and don't even require a polygraph for the Top Secret RCMP clearance.

Appendix A – Major changes to RM recruitment

Changes to the organizational and program structure:

2004: Establishment of the lateral entry program
2006: Establishment of the NRP as a policy centre
2012: Establishment of the NRPC in Regina
2013: Establishment of the Experienced Police Officer Program
2014: Establishment of the Final Application Status Tracking (FAST) team
2014: Establishment of appeals process
2015: Establishment of the Aboriginal Applicant Mentorship Program
2016: Opportunity for applicants from E, K, F and D Divisions to select their home province for their first posting
2016: Decision to increase troops to 40 per year
2017: Establishment of the Business Intelligence Unit
2017: Pilot to centralize medical assessments at NHQ
2017: Transfer of the Aboriginal Applicant Mentorship Program to National Aboriginal Policing Services (in C&IP)
2018: Pilot of the Enhanced Training of Francophone Troop.

Changes to the process:

2013: Granting of conditional troop offers
2016: Electronic intake of applications and forms
2016: Implementation of Cognos
2016: Removal of conditional offers
2018: Implementation of ATS
2018: Decision to start the security clearance stage once medical has been completed
2018: Acceptance of "Significant Reactions" during the PEP
2019: Pilot to send unilingual French applicants for a 13 week intensive English language training prior to going to Depot
2019: Pilot to implement Eye Detect technology as a way to supplement the PEP

Changes to application requirements:

2013: Removal of mandatory requirement for applicants to attend a career presentation
2015: Requirement for applicants to complete hearing and vision exam before applying
2016: Acceptance of applicants who are permanent residents of Canada

Changes to the assessment tools:

2015: Requirement for applicants to pass PARE before applying
2015: Exemption of RPAT for applicants with university degrees
2016: Exemption of RPAT for applicants with a college diploma
2016: Removal of PARE requirement before applying
2016: Removal of RMSI (face-to-face interview)
2018: Establishment of the Right-Fit interview



RCMP police officer recruitment process map diagram, current in 2020 (rarely changes much):
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/wam/media/4461/initial/11270a07120b6376c5555acae6ea7b...
Posted by: AM
Posted on: Apr 17th, 2019 at 1:37am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
If you fail a rcmp polygraph and receive a 4 year ban? Reasoning would be why? 
Also can it affect you in family court ?
Posted by: WonderWomen
Posted on: Apr 5th, 2018 at 5:22am
  Mark & Quote
RCMP Pre-Employment Polygraph (PEP) Details

Training Program: Canadian Police College Polygraph School or an Accredited Polygraph Association.

Examiner Certification: Canadian Association of Police Polygraphists’ (CAPP) membership. 

Technique Used and Format: Reverse Control Interviewing Technique as taught during the Polygraph Examiners Course at the Canadian Police College since 1997. It is a special investigative interviewing technique designed to ferret out previously undisclosed information. The Pre-Employment polygraph test utilizes the Directed Lie Screening Test format.

Policy: All Regular Member applicants are polygraph tested in accordance with the RCMP protocol and procedures outlined in the Truth Verification Section (TVS) Standard Operating Guidelines (SOGs), PEP Manual and Directed Lie Screening Test (DLST) Examiner Guidelines.


PEP Quality Assurance Review Checklist

Introduction: Examiners must follow the structured RCMP PEP pre-examination. 

Consent Forms: Examiners must present/explain all PEP consent forms during the appropriate stages of the pre-examination. 

Background: General questions. 

Explanation of Instrument: All examiners should present the Chocolate Crumb Analogy (as outlined in the SOGs) prior to developing the questions in the Examiner’s Question Booklet. 

Development of Applicant Examiner Question Booklet: All examiners must properly develop the questions in the applicant’s question booklet utilizing the Reverse Control Technique

Question Review/Test Procedure: Thoroughly review all relevant questions as outlined in the RCMP PEP manual. Present directed lie control questions as outlined in the RCMP PEP manual. Follow review order as outlined in the RCMP PEP manual. Relevant question formulation/wording for Subtest A, B, and C must follow the guidelines as set out in the RCMP PEP manual. 

Double Verification Test (DVT) (Demonstration Test): Conduct the directed lie acquaintance / demonstration test using numbers on paper as outlined in the RCMP PEP manual. 

In-Test Procedure: Includes total time spent conducting the PEP examination. 

Scoring: Utilize the Empirical Scoring System (ESS) scoring system as outlined in the Directed Lie Screening Test – Examiner Guide 2012-07-05. All examiners must follow the structured Directed Lie Screening Test (DLST) format as outlined in the RCMP PEP manual. 

Post Examination Interview: Post examination interviews should be non-accusatory/non-confrontational. Post examination interviews should serve as a means of flushing out deliberately concealed information. 

Polygraph Report: Examiners must complete an accurate, detailed polygraph report written in narrative format. 


Contractor Procedure:

At time of interview, the [polygraph contractor] shall: 

Determine the suitability of the applicant to undergo a polygraph examination. Medical questions to be provided by the RCMP;
 
Perform a pre-test interview with the applicant. These interviews will include a specific range of pre-established and approved questions and utilize the ‘reverse control technique’; 

Administer the polygraph examination; 

Evaluate the results of the examination and perform a post-test interview if the results are considered uncertain and require clarification; and 

Complete a report on the results of the pre-test and post-test results immediately and thereafter submit to the RCMP Project Authority. Report template to be provided by the RCMP. 

Follow and consistently meet existing RCMP Standard Operating Guidelines for Pre-Employment Polygraph testing - copy to be provided by RCMP Project Authority upon issuance of standing offer. Regular Quality Assurance Reviews will be conducted to verify that work output meets the existing RCMP Standard Operating Guidelines for Pre-Employment Polygraph testing.

Conduct the Pre-Employment polygraph test using the ‘Reverse Control Technique’ and utilize the Directed Lie Screening Test format. Must consistently meet the Standard Operating guideline threshold for Pre-Employment Polygraph Testing as determined through regular Quality Assurance Reviews conducted by the Project authority or his designate.



Can any experts comment on the Reverse Control Technique?

Can any experts also comment on the structured Directed Lie Screening Test (DLST) format for the PEP?
Posted by: xenonman
Posted on: Jul 10th, 2017 at 4:30am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
xenonman wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 10:39am:
In the Canadian government, does one have the choice to be polygraphed in either English or in French? Wink


Yes, if you’re applying from Quebec and only speak French, for example to CSIS at a regional office in Quebec, then they would have to offer testing in your official language of choice (French). CSIS is an offshoot of the RCMP.


La Verite,

Merci pour vos informations.  Et au Quebec, la RCMP
naturellement c'est la GRC! Combien des polygraphes peuvent parler francais?   Grin
Posted by: the truth
Posted on: Jul 9th, 2017 at 6:45pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
xenonman wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 10:39am:
In the Canadian government, does one have the choice to be polygraphed in either English or in French? Wink


Yes, if you’re applying from Quebec and only speak French, for example to CSIS at a regional office in Quebec, then they would have to offer testing in your official language of choice (French). CSIS is an offshoot of the RCMP.
Posted by: xenonman
Posted on: Dec 29th, 2016 at 10:39am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
In the Canadian government, does one have the choice to be polygraphed in either English or in French? Wink
Posted by: GillesBrunet
Posted on: Dec 26th, 2016 at 9:47pm
  Mark & Quote
Something very disturbing has happened recently.
No, it’s not the endless waves of sexual assault and harassment lawsuits by hundreds of RCMP female members against the Force, it’s not the sheer incompetence in many high profile investigations, and it’s not even the many other lawsuits in terms of overtime, harassment, bullying and toxic work environments.

No sir, it’s the polygraph. The polygraph is now the only in-person interview left in the RCMP recruitment process.

As of 2015, applicants with a minimum two-year college diploma from a recognized post-secondary institution will no longer be required to write the RCMP Entrance Exam, which is a general ability test designed to determine an applicant's potential aptitude for police work. University graduates have not had to write this test since June 2015.

Permanent residents of Canada are now eligible to apply (non-citizens can now get the initial Top Secret clearances after a brief background check).

Effective May 1, 2016, the following changes have been made to the process:
•      The organizational competencies previously assessed in the Regular Member Selection Interview (RMSI) will now be assessed at other interview and evaluation steps of the application process, and at the RCMP Training Academy in Regina. (Other interview and evaluation steps means the polygraph since there is no other interview in the process).
•      The Physical Abilities Requirement Evaluation (PARE) will now only be assessed at the RCMP Training Academy in Regina.

Summary: You no longer have to be a Canadian Citizen to get Top Secret clearance (bet the US will not like that), No more written entrance competency exams for anyone who went to two year colleges, No more physical fitness test during recruiting, and no more job interview at all. The ONLY interview in the whole process will now be the Polygraph. That’s right, the POLYGRAPH is now the only interview that still exists in the whole RCMP recruitment process, and the only one that determines the outcome. 

During the application process, you must not:
•      Cheat on any portion of the RCMP application process, including using counter-measures during the polygraph examination.

Does thinking the polygraph is a joke and not playing along count as using counter-measures during the polygraph examination? What about saying you researched the polygraph when asked about it? Visited antipolygraph.com? They might even tell you that such sites only have lies and post techniques that don't work and can easily be detected by an RCMP examiner. Education and curiosity counts as cheating and dishonesty in the logic of RCMP polygraphers? Must still be the 1960s.

Again, the polygraph is now the ONLY interview in the whole RCMP recruiting process so it 100% determines the hiring decision outcome. Since the polygraph is hard to “beat” by young naïve rural recruits with little to no education (which is most of the recruits) they kept it. On the other hand, trained intelligence operatives would easily defeat the polygraph and fool any examiner regardless of experience (because polygraph is just an intimidation mind game prop similar to the “The Fruit Machine” used by RCMP in years past to detect homosexuals). Combining the over reliance on polygraphs with allowing non-citizens to join and getting rid of pretty much all objective steps that existed before like the BDI interview and entrance exam, it will only be a matter of time before the RCMP is penetrated by Russian/Chinese moles and deep cover foreign agents. Possibly even terrorist sympathizers who don't even need to be citizens.

Old KGB/DGI Techniques and Tips for ALWAYS Beating Polys (99% success rate):
1.      Get good night’s rest.
2.      Know that poly doesn’t work and examiner cannot read your mind. They know far less than they try to suggest they do. Play their biases against them, use misdirection and disinformation.
3.      Relax. Breathe normally and regularly. Maintain conscious control of regular breathing and heart rate levels.
4.      Deny everything from the outset, no hesitation, firm unequivocal denials.
5.      Be nice and friendly to examiner.
6.      Use positive visualization relaxation techniques to every question asked. Relax and give off neutral physiological responses to all issues. Worst outcome would be an inconclusive result which given the context would be the same as a “pass”.
7.      Do not try to outwardly do anything that would give off any obvious odd responses or strong unusual reactions to anything during the test. Don’t do things like hold your breath, breathe too fast, or try to produce any increased reactions to any “control” questions or during breaks. Do not attempt to try to identify question types or polygraph techniques, it will only lead to confusion and it does not change how you should behave during the whole procedure. Just maintain the same baselines level of emotion and minimal reactions from beginning to end. Treat all questions as the same. This requires mental discipline and mental visualization techniques. View the questions as abstract and impersonal robotically answering, while you are away in your place of calm mentally by visualizing a favourite vacation spot or pleasant memory.
8.      Never let you guard down and always stick to your baseline story no matter what. Respond to any accusations with surprise and firm denials, they are just ploys. If the examiner keeps insisting on a specific issue or reaction, if there is a specific reaction come up with an alternative unrelated explanation for what you were thinking or memory flashback that could have caused the reaction. If there was no significant physiological reaction showed to you, then flat out deny the allegation while showing annoyance. If the examiner claims there was a reaction or asks you why you reacted without actually showing you the detailed charts, then it was a bluff and fishing expedition, firmly deny everything without any further explanation needed. Alternative explanations are only required when confronted with specific quantitative data or evidence, not just questioning with no prior specific data shown to you. The rest is just a fishing expedition with no real basis.
9.      The only way to fail is if you make admissions and give any confessions (regardless of the ground truth). Poly only works through techniques of intimidation, interrogation trickery, admissions, and gradual confessions.


Canadian Agencies who do polygraphs as part of regular pre-employment screening:
Almost all municipal police services outside of Ontario (Ontario banned polygraphs)
RCMP
CSIS
CSE
Note: Department of National Defence does not normally use polygraphs for security screening of employees.


References:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/qualifications-and-requirements
“The Fruit Machine”
https://canadianhistorycomesout.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/1962-the-fruit-machine/
http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/rcmp-uses-fruit-machine-to-detect-gays
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/06/when-the-canadian-government-use...
http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/08/13/the-mounties-used-a-fruit-machine-to-target-...
https://www.damninteresting.com/the-gay-detecting-fruit-machine/

Did You Know?
•      The "fruit machine" resembled a dentist's chair, with a small camera on a pulley aimed at the subject's pupils. The suspected gay person was shown various photos, some of which had images that would ostensibly excite a homosexual. If their pupils dilated when looking at certain images, it was seen as an indicator of their homosexuality.
•      The RCMP targeted hundreds of suspected gays throughout the 1950s and '60s, but one of the best known was John Wendell Holmes. He was a respected Canadian diplomat whose work was admired by many, including Prime Minister John Diefenbaker. After being grilled by the RCMP, however, Holmes admitted to his homosexuality and was quietly removed from public service in 1960. He went on to become a successful academic. 
•      The Fruit Machine was not a stand alone test, but many of the other methods used were just as ridiculous. For instance, another test run by the RCMP included monitoring subjects’ physiological responses to specific words such asqueer, gay, drag and even bar.
Posted by: xenonman
Posted on: Jun 28th, 2016 at 8:49am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
If you’ve ever wondered what truly goes on in the inner sanctum of the RCMP polygraphist…

Sex in the polygraph suite...not exactly my idea of romance! Grin
Posted by: Ex Member
Posted on: Jun 1st, 2016 at 3:42am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Sacrebleu!
Posted by: xenonman
Posted on: May 31st, 2016 at 3:58am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
Here is some information pertaining to how RCMP pre-employment polygraph exams are conducted:


For jobs with the RCMP, does an applicant have the right to have an employment polygraph examination administered "en francais" by a French-speaking examiner? Undecided
Posted by: polygraph
Posted on: Apr 21st, 2016 at 3:01am
  Mark & Quote
GMAN70 wrote on Mar 17th, 2015 at 5:11pm:
Hi all,

I did my PEP a week and like anyone I am very anxious. I was as honest and upfront as could be and revealed things to him that only I know, but I'm still nervous. Quick note, after my polygraph the examiner came back in the room and said the Poly charts went off track for a little bit and he asked me to review the cards and see if there was anything else I had to declare/confess. I read each card through and did see one thing I had failed to mention. So, my question is, Is it normal for them to ask you to make one final confession after the poly? Are they just tricking me into confessing something I may have been hiding? I'm so afraid that I failed it. Oh my nerves!

GMAN from NL


This is a super late reply but some things don’t really change.

Depending on the agency and examiner, yes it was probably standard procedure and a classic trick. They may ask you if there was anything else that you wanted to add at the end, especially after making you wait for a bit in uncertainty. They may also be more aggressive at the end and ask leading question such as “So tell me, when was the last time that you…?”. It’s just a mind game and unprofessional. They probably assumed you were holding back and lying about something, that’s usually their basic assumption. Deny everything and they’ll give up shortly when there’s nothing to grasp at.
Posted by: GMAN70
Posted on: Mar 17th, 2015 at 5:11pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Hi all,

I did my PEP a week and like anyone I am very anxious. I was as honest and upfront as could be and revealed things to him that only I know, but I'm still nervous. Quick note, after my polygraph the examiner came back in the room and said the Poly charts went off track for a little bit and he asked me to review the cards and see if there was anything else I had to declare/confess. I read each card through and did see one thing I had failed to mention. So, my question is, Is it normal for them to ask you to make one final confession after the poly? Are they just tricking me into confessing something I may have been hiding? I'm so afraid that I failed it. Oh my nerves!

GMAN from NL
Posted by: thetruth
Posted on: May 24th, 2012 at 1:08am
  Mark & Quote
If you’ve ever wondered what truly goes on in the inner sanctum of the RCMP polygraphist…  Lips Sealed Undecided

RCMP officer's sexual antics with female colleagues not enough to get him fired
 
By Jana G. Pruden and Gary Dimmock, Postmedia News - May 23, 2012
 
A high-ranking Edmonton RCMP officer who exhibited a pattern of inappropriate behaviour over several years — including exposing his thingy to a civilian employee, having sex in a polygraph room, and drinking alcohol at work — has been transferred to B.C.

He will remain on the job as a sergeant.

Donald Ray was suspended for 10 days without pay, given a formal reprimand, and demoted one rank from staff sergeant after an anonymous tip sparked an internal RCMP investigation and disciplinary proceedings. At the time of the tip, Ray was the officer in charge of the polygraph unit at the RCMP's Behavioural Sciences Unit.

Speaking to the media at the RCMP's K Division headquarters in Edmonton on Tuesday, Chief Superintendent Marlin Degrand said Ray is working under supervision in his new post, "to ensure that he doesn't continue on with any sorts of activity like this in the future.

"Should that surface, it will be dealt with and it will be dealt with harshly."

Degrand said the RCMP takes the matters "very seriously."

A decision by the RCMP adjudication board obtained by the Ottawa Citizen says victim-impact statements show the incidents caused personal and institutional "wounds" which "will require some time and attention to heal.

"It will take considerable effort to rebuild the damaged trust in our organization in light of the incidents."

Internal Affairs investigators began looking into Ray in August 2009, reviewing seven reports of misconduct which occurred in Edmonton, St. Albert and Red Deer.

Marlin said Ray was put on supervised, administrative duty as soon as the investigation began.

The decision of the three-officer adjudication board found Ray was hosting after-hours parties in his office at K Division, and kept a bar fridge stocked with Budweiser and Appleton Jamaica Rum.

The incident occurred close to the end of one work day in April 2009, when Ray invited his staff to a private office party, and "encouraged his subordinates to sit and have a drink." One woman consumed four beers over two hours. Once the other employees left, the two kissed. Ray then unzipped his pants, exposed himself and asked her to touch his thingy. The woman, a civilian employee, refused.

The investigation said Ray exhibited a "disturbing pattern of activity" dating to 2006, when he would book a polygraph suite for lunchtime sex with a female subordinate.

Ray would also sign out unmarked police cars for his sexual encounters, and once had sex in a public parking lot with another female subordinate after a colleague's transfer party.

"A reasonable person would find an off-duty police officer engaging in sexual intercourse in a private vehicle in a public place to be disgraceful," the board wrote.

The adjudication board also found Ray made inappropriate comments to another subordinate employee, including calling her a "hottie" and making comments about her sex life in front of other people.

Ray also had "inappropriate and unprofessional" interactions with prospective female employees, including sending them inappropriate emails, and taking them out for drinks during the hiring process. In one case, he falsified security clearance forms for a woman, exaggerating the number of years she'd known one of her character references.

The discipline board said Ray's conduct "compromised the integrity of the RCMP's hiring process."


Ray admitted to all seven allegations of discreditable conduct, and apologized in writing.

The adjudication board found that "the serial, repetitive nature of the acts" was an aggravating factor, as were Ray's experience and rank.

But the board also noted numerous mitigating factors in Ray's favour, including his previous work record, several letters of support from coworkers, and the officer's "sincere expressions of regret and remorse."

Degrand said RCMP management "in no way, shape or form" condones Ray's behaviour, and that the decision about whether to fire the experienced officer was up to the adjudication board.

"Dismissal was one of the options that the board considered," Degrand said. "I'm not here to substitute my personal beliefs or thoughts or just speculate as to their thought process on that, but the adjudication board considered all of the aggravating as well as mitigating circumstances and in this case, they deemed that this member would receive the highest form of sanction short of dismissal."

Degrand would not say where exactly in B.C. Ray is now stationed. He said the officer is not in a position to deal with cases such as sexual assaults.

Ray's behaviour is the latest in a series of complaints of sexual harassment and discrimination levelled against the RCMP across the country.

A high-profile RCMP veteran, Cpl. Catherine Galliford, ignited the controversy last fall by speaking publicly about her internal allegations of sexual harassment and abuse by former male colleagues.

The complaints prompted an investigation by the RCMP Public Complaints Commission, which has asked for public input into how the Mounties dealt with the allegations. The commission is also considering whether existing force guidelines for dealing with such allegations are adequate.


© Copyright (c) Postmedia News
Posted by: CQT
Posted on: Jan 21st, 2012 at 10:36pm
  Mark & Quote
I heard from a close friend that the poly shook him up pretty badly as well. And he is a solid, straight forward guy.

I think the poly is an absolutely ridiculous way to screen potential officers. I was reading an old report on polygraph usage in CSIS (formerly the RCMP Security Service), and I believe it was the Security Intelligence Review Committee that had recommended that CSIS stop using the poly annually.

The poly is a lot more effective if you 'think' it’s going to work. They play some trick on you in the beginning, like making you pick a card or a similar simple ‘magic’ trick, in order to convince you of the mind-reading abilities of the machine. That being said, there is certainly no reason to lie, but even the polygraph's strongest supporters admit there are false positives.

Here is an excerpt from the report, SIRC Annual Report 1990-1991:
“Since our 1985-86 Annual Report, we have inveighed against the use of the polygraph by CSIS to screen potential employees and test the loyalty of serving employees. We have noted the absence of generally accepted scientific studies establishing the validity of polygraph examinations in mass employment and security screening programs. We have pointed out that many defenders of the device admit an error rate of ten per cent or more. We observed the lack of confidence in the use of the polygraph in security screening of the British Psychological Association and the American Psychological Association. Most courts in Canada have ruled against admitting polygraph evidence. The United Kingdom decided not to introduce the polygraph due to problems of inaccuracy and unreliability. The Government of Ontario prohibits such tests in personnel screening.”


Ginton et al., (1982) evaluated the CQT in a field study in which 21 POLICE OFFICERS attending a police course served as participants (unknown to them until the study was completed). Given the opportunity to cheat on an aptitude test, 7 officers cheated while scoring their tests. After a few days, all were told that some of them were suspected of cheating. ALL were asked to take a poly. 2 Guilty Officers and 1 Innocent Officer refused, while 3 more confessed to cheating before the poly. Of the remaining 15, 2 had cheated and 13 had not. Only 1 guilty officer was correctly identified, while 7 out of the 13 innocent officers were correctly identified.


The poly is inconclusive, which is why it isn't admissible in court. However, it is still a good tool for pre-employment screening and criminal investigations, not as means in and of itself, but as a way of eliciting admissions/confessions. The machine is only part of the test, as most poly operators have advanced training in interview techniques and usually have 10-15 years of experience under their belts. Being able to read the machine's output data is one thing...being able to read the PERSON answering the questions that lead up to the hook-up to the machine is quite another.
Posted by: stefano - Ex Member
Posted on: Jul 22nd, 2011 at 9:32pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Quote:
Sadly, on other forums, where a lot of the members are active law-enforcement personnel, any basic questions about the polygraph by genuinely curious applicants are usually met with intentionally ignorant and derogatory replies.

Did you expect enlightened insight from that bunch? Don't cast your pearls among swine.
Posted by: PEP
Posted on: Jul 21st, 2011 at 9:09pm
  Mark & Quote
I’ve been an avid follower of this forum for some time now, and before I posted anything, I wanted to thank you all for such an open, and educational forum environment!

With regards to this thread:

RCMP Polygraph Test (pre-employment exam) Official Presentation:

http://www.acb.gov.jm/html/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/RCMP-Polygraph-Presentatio...

Contrast this official PowerPoint presentation to the information in this thread. It will become apparent how some of the marketing disinformation purported in the presentation helps to maintain and re-enforce the practical effectiveness and marketing image of the polygraph. If you read the presentation closely, with a critical thinking lens, then you should see that quite a few of the things discussed in the first post of this thread are hinted at and can be surmised and/or deduced.

Sadly, on other forums, where a lot of the members are active law-enforcement personnel, any basic questions about the polygraph by genuinely curious applicants are usually met with intentionally ignorant and derogatory replies.

Below are such examples of how some of the disinformation (whether intentional or not) works when a naive applicant asks a genuine basic question:

Prototypical Question/Response Series 1: “Applying to the RCMP Polygraph testing…Just opening this up for input or experiences (good or bad) with the selection process. Don't bash me on this, i am just curious. Thanks.”

Typical Replies from active law-enforcement forum members:

“Just be honest. It will be worse if you lie, or skirt the subject.”

“Are you retarded? It's a polygraph. It'll catch you lying. What the hell do you think you should do? Lie anyway?”

“Whats the risk? If you did any of the bad things they say you will be charged for, then you should not do it. There is no risk aside from that.
Unless you lie, then your risk is failure...but then you already knew you would fail before going in.”

Prototypical Question/Response Series 2: “I understand, and its all about being truthful. Polygraphs are based on breathing pattern and perspiration, so It's all about in the moment how you respond to the question and how you are mentally thinking about the answer. Therefore it may be difficult for those who feel pressure in that situation more than others, which may result in the polygraph detecting something unusual. In some cases this can even happen while telling the truth.”

Typical Replies from active law-enforcement forum members:

“Polygraph is about more than breathing pattern and perspiration. It picks up on reactions that you don't even realize are going on. Quit reading websites on how to beat the polygraph. It's screwing with your head.”

“And don't they ask you before your RCMP issued polygraph, if you have read up on anyway to alter or deceive the polygraph? List it and deal with whatever the results. They will know if you are being deceptive.”

“Trained professionals.
Do not read Ani-polygraph website.”

“If you were 100% honest when you filled out your RM questionnaire, which you should have been, then you have nothing to worry about. They go over the whole thing with you and then at the end (before the poly) ask if there is anything else that might make you nervous or stressed that you haven't disclosed yet. You have plenty of opportunity to clear up anything you think might show up on the polygraph but if you're not honest - YES they will catch you and YES you will fail!”

“The polygraph operators are highly trained investigators will years of experience under their belts. The polygraph machine itself is merely one tool in their arsenal. They can tell when you're being truthful or deceptive.”
Posted by: Drew Richardson
Posted on: Jul 18th, 2011 at 12:36am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Thank you for an excellent post.

Polygraph screening (applicant, employee reinvestigation, and sexual offender) in the United States is equally offensive and useless.

It is time for some brave soul currently involved or recently involved in the process to stand up and say so.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Jul 17th, 2011 at 8:04am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Thanks for taking the time to prepare and share this detailed review. It's worth noting that Charles Momy, a former head of the RCMP polygraph unit, has publicly come out against polygraph screening:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=533
Posted by: RCMP Polygraph
Posted on: Jul 17th, 2011 at 6:41am
  Mark & Quote
RCMP Pre Employment Polygraph (PEP) Experiences

A friend of mine did a pre-employment polygraph with the RCMP in the past several weeks and he/she was outraged by the whole experience. For those wondering, my friend did “Pass”, but the experience has left my friend shaken and demoralized. This not some bitter or biased story; it is factual and real.  It is also detailed. The following is a composite of experiences, and key details have also been provided by one or two other applicants, all who had direct experience with the polygraph and recruiting process; therefore the information below is not from just a single source.

Here is some information pertaining to how RCMP pre-employment polygraph exams are conducted:

During the instrumentation phase the subject is instructed to close his/her eyes and only think about the question or issue at hand, focusing on it, and nothing else. The subject is sitting 90 degrees to the polygrapher. The subject is also told about the sensor underneath the seat pillow (and how it detects any movements or attempts at trying to cheat the device) and instructed not to move while the questions are being asked and the instrument is running. If the topic of countermeasures is brought up then the examiner briefly states that they are very obvious on the charts, that they don’t work, and that he/she has seen them in the past and can very easily recognize them right away since he/she conducted many tests.

Myth 1: There are no surprise questions asked.

Reality: This is one a total myth. Each question on the booklet that one fills out beforehand (which is publicly accessible as a pdf document on the recruiting website) is actually followed up during the test by several other previously unknown sub-questions (e.g., Have you ever…., How about…, Sometimes people in these situations…). These sub-questions also involve plausible scenarios that are pushed on the applicant in such a sly away as to suggest casualness and even an attitude that such activities are common, normal, and encouraged. In such an environment of questioning (especially when it comes to all sorts of implied scenarios totally out of the blue) someone who may get confused or more easily influenced could easily start to believe that some of these, up to now totally foreign possibilities, might in fact be possible, and maybe somewhere, sometime, might have even happened. Then at the slightest admission of possibility, the interrogator will start to insinuate and probe what previously did not seem to be a big deal at all.  Pretty soon the minor detail is turned over its head, and something previously simple and innocent is turned around and framed as a major activity with menacing intent. Some of the  extra questions asked can also be quite personally offensive and unjustly insinuating.

Myth 2: There are no tricks employed.

Reality: There are many tricks employed. There is no such thing as a “truth verifying question”, “baseline question”, nor is there such a thing as questions used to calibrate the instrument, or any other such made up mumbo-jumbo. The only questions that do not appear in the polygraph booklet that are asked when hooked up to the machine (about 20 minutes towards the end), are either asked as meaningless buffers between real questions, or as additional specific real probes to the real main questions. If the polygrapher suspects that the applicant might be familiar with polygraphy, then all questions (aside from the neutral buffers) will be real questions, and there will be simply an overall comparison made as to which showed the greatest response. The card trick is rigged (as can be inferred by the fact that the cards are special large cards specifically made for the test by the manufacturer of the instrument, and are not in a typical full deck).

Myth3 : There are no trick questions.

Reality: There might be dirty trick questions, especially at the end. For example, if a subject were to repeatedly answer “No” to a drug question, but the polygrapher think that the subject is lying, then questions such as “So when did you really do x drugs…”, or “So when was the last time that you did x drugs…”, “How often did you actually …” might surface at the end when the test is supposedly “over”. Of course, this is a bluff and the examiner will have a smirk on his face hinting that he/she has “figured things out”, that he/she has “caught you” and that you better stop playing games and finally come clean.

The examiner’s sheer silliness will be showcased by the fact that he/she will claim that the polygraph works almost flawlessly each and every time, and that it detects lying with practically close to 100% accuracy (especially when he/she so proudly “detects” the mystery card, which supposedly only the subject is aware of); but his tomfoolery is easily revealed by the fact that he/she will NEVER show you the computer charts, even when stating that “Yes, the charts show very clearly that the card you were holding is….”.  The reason why the test subject is never shown the charts is because the charts don’t show anything, other than random patterns and “supposed reactions”.

Further proof usually comes at the “end” of the interview when the polygrapher might ask such questions as “How come you were so nervous when” (even when at the very beginning it was stipulated that nervousness is normal and expected in many people), “Which questions do you feel that you reacted the most to…the strongest to…(of course after initially claiming that the charts revealed all and were very clear during the card guessing phase), etc.

Myth 4: The examiner is fair and neutral.

Reality: The examiner might use psychologically coercive interrogation methods such as stating that there is a clear lack of information on the initial forms and that he/she expects a lot more to be revealed by the end of the test, as many others have done before.  Other psychologically coercive tactics might be to explicitly state that there are a very limited number of training spots and that the process is very competitive (implying that if he/she doesn’t like that he/she hears, or what he/she doesn’t hear, then it only takes a small negative nudge to make sure one doesn’t make it through the process successfully). Periods of silence will also be used to maximum effect, as well as positive inducers such as “What else…”, “Go on…”, “And…”, followed by more induced silence. 

The examiner will also play games by saying such things as “This test is voluntary but so it your job application”, “You don’t have to be here if you don’t want to, do you want to leave?,  “It doesn’t look to me like you are really in the right mood (attitude) for this, would you prefer that we end it now?”, “It’s a long way until lunch, looks like we’re gonna be here for a while”, “Yup, this is going to take a lot longer than I thought”, “Uh huh, it definitely looks like we’re going to be here for a while, etc.” Some of these statements are made almost as quiet statements to himself/herself, which the subject is meant to only casually overhear.

Myth 5: The polygraph is not decisive but only one of many tools in the overall recruiting process.

Reality: This is a misleading half-truth. The polygraph examination does not use any quantitative or automatic scoring criteria. The examiner makes a report based on his/her holistic impression and the interview video is then viewed by a lower ranking recruiter, at recruiting headquarters at a later time, after which, based on the complete applicant file, a recommendation to continue with the process is either made, or a deferral is issued. Note that the Recruiting NCO is of much lower rank than the active duty polygrapher; therefore, it can be obvious how a biased personal opinion from the polygrapher can strongly influence the lower-ranking Recruiting NCO’s further decisions. And the final review and hiring decision is essentially made by the lower-ranking Recruiting NCO (and not by a final review committee as is the case in modern organizations).

Otherwise, the polygraph is used to generate leads for the background investigation and to formulate future schemas for handling the application. The polygrapher will claim that he/she only submits a report and then never hears about an applicant again. In reality, the polygrapher can also personally make a call or send an email to recruiting in order to subjectively express any concerns or opinions about the candidate that he/she may have; information which has nothing to do with the specific questionnaire items that the polygraph was intended for.

In other words, if the polygrapher likes the applicant (in terms of personality and personal background) and no significant admissions are made, then most likely that applicant will go on forward and be successful. If on the other hand the polygrapher takes offence personally with the applicant for whatsoever reason, then the applicant may still go on (assuming no damaging admissions were made); however, the polygrapher will now ensure that the applicant will not be successful during the background or later stages. All the polygrapher has to do in order to make sure an applicant does not make it through successfully to the hiring stage is to personally express his/her concerns about someone in terms of subjective qualities such as personality or cultural fit. This is because all future investigative steps and suitability evaluations are very strongly influenced and coloured by the polygrapher’s initial report/opinions. Therefore, the RCMP pre-employment polygraph is the most biased and subjective phase of the RCMP recruiting process, more akin to a popularity contest, as opposed to any strictly objective method.

Myth 6: The RCMP polygraph interview is very sophisticated and has been perfected over many decades.

Reality: The RCMP only started conducting pre-employment polygraph interviews in 2005 and the polygraph examiner did not have to undergo one as part of his/her initial job application process. The methods used are directly adapted from private American pre-employment polygraph companies, as are most of the guidelines and general procedures. The interviewer is an interrogator by trade, and will be fairly experienced, but he/she relies on surprise, subject inexperience, gullibility, and outright naiveté. Part of the scientific rhetoric spewed by the polygrapher (standard phrases directly from the polygraph instrument manufacturer) actually reminds the critical listener that the instrument was designed with the uneducated hill-billy deep-south criminals in mind; being that what is explained biologically/physiologically is both simplistic and scientifically inaccurate. Some of the things that polygrapher says initially are outright lies, while other preliminary things are in direct contradiction to what is later said or done. Any astute observer who critically listens to what is being said the whole time, will pick up on the contradictions and inconsistencies between the early rhetoric and the later actual procedure. The overall polygraph procedure is fairly crude, and the approaches are rather overt, as opposed to subtle. Some of the interviewer’s line of questioning can be somewhat more skilled and subtle, but only because he/she has done many suspect interviews over many years.

Myth 7: Everything that happens at the polygraph is “classified” and “confidential” and should never be talked to anyone about (this is the prevailing view between applicants).

Reality: The only confidential parts in the recruiting processing cycle from an applicant’s perspective are the RPAT test items and the RMSI interview content; the first two steps in the recruiting cycle.  All the waivers and forms signed during the polygraph interrogation are one sided; they are designed so that the applicant waves away all rights to confidentiality and privacy in all possible contexts, both present and future. The waivers ensure that the RCMP can do whatever it wants with the contents of the polygraph interview (including the audiovideo recording), and also allows it to share any information with any other agency or department that it wishes at any time, while leaving the applicant powerless to do anything about it.  Ironically, it is the applicant who signs away all of his/her rights and privacy during the polygraph exam interrogation.  There are no documents signed that prohibit the applicant from talking about his/her polygraph experience.

The reason for posting this information here is because law-enforcement forums (supported by law enforcement specific advertising and related partnerships) will almost always censor and delete such information, and will supress any public debate about the realities of the RCMP recruiting process (specifically when it comes to the polygraph). And once again, the closed-in mentality of law enforcement applicants (who simply do not know better), prohibits any real public discourse from taking place, and therefore enables non-transparent, nonsensical, non-objective, and discriminatory hiring practices to continue.

Endnote: If this is the organizational culture exhibited during the recruiting process, then one can only guess what the working culture is really like within the organization.  Suffice it to say, my friend was not impressed, and is hoping that other applicants might think twice before jumping so blindly into the proverbial deep end of the recruiting pool. My friend is now considering becoming a teacher and putting her creative skills to better use.
 
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