1  Employment Forums (Non-polygraph related) / Police, Sheriffs', and Corrections Departments Applications, Hiring, and Employment / Re: MMPI 2 First 75 Questions out of 567 Psych Exam
 on: Nov 7th, 2019 at 11:55pm 
Dear Thug,
Please send me the rest of the test's questions. It would be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance

Ireine
ireineroosdy@yahoo.com

2  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 5th, 2019 at 11:45am 
Doug Williams wrote on Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:24pm:
Doug Williams wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
Dan Mangan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 3:51pm:
Here are a few tidbits from the APA magazine piece in which Ray Nelson walks back the use of computerized algorithms for scoring a polygraph "test"...

"...there is no form of physiological activity that is unique to deception, meaning that the polygraph test does not so much detect deception..."

ďOne APA member summed up the [algorithm] difficulty nicely...'I donít use algorithms because I donít know how they work.' "


"...APA accredited polygraph training programs have provided little or no information on algorithms because there is no requirement to use computer algorithms, and because people donít know enough about them."


"...it makes little sense to use a method, technology or tool that is not reasonably well understood, and for which accountable answers cannot be provided as to how a decision was made."

"From [an] ethical perspective there may be serious problems with transferring responsibility for human decision-making to a black-box machine process.


I find it amazing that this kind of sober introspection regarding the use of polygraph "test" scoring algorithms is only now making its way to APA members.

One has to wonder how many lives have been ruined over the past quarter-century by the exuberant and reckless use of such statistical alchemy.


Well said Dan and to that point I think there should be some way to hold the thugs and charlatans in the US government polygraph industry who have been perpetrating this fraud accountable.† Iím working on two things at present - one is an idea I have to try to get some attorneys interested in class action and individual lawsuits to sue the polygraph examiners for fraud by claiming to be able to detect deception with a polygraph while knowing all along that this is not possible and further that by their prosecution of me they have admitted that the polygraph is worthless as a lie detector if the charts can be eaten so easily manipulated by anyone taking the test to come up with the desired results Ė pass or fail - pick whichever one you like. Check this out when you get a chance and see if you can help me fine tune it also if you know any attorneys that might be interested in working on this please ask them to chime in. http://www.polygraph.com/sue-the-bastards.html

Iím also working on a motion to ask the judge to at the very least safe guard all the records of the discovery in my case and forward them to the DOJ/IG and the DHS/IG for further review. I really believe thereís an issue with national security here if the government continues to rely on a polygraph instrument after having prosecuted me for proving how easily it can be beaten by anyone with a modicum of intelligence and preparation. I would welcome any comments you have on either of these ideas I have here. http://www.polygraph.com/the-motion.html


How about it? Does anyone else out there in the anti-polygraph community or even the havenít-quite-made-up-my-mind-yet community care to help me out with my proposal for a lawsuit and a motion to safeguard the records of my case in the interests of national security? Am I onto something here or am I once again charging at windmills as I have done so often in the past four decades?


I often wonder what Drew Richardson would have to say about all this. I remember after I was convicted on that set-up called OPERATION LIE BUSTERS, Drew† had some very strong words about the restrictions that were placed on me for the period of my supervised release. I think Dr. Drew even said something to the effect that if I chose to give a public demonstration of the STING TECHNIQUE in violation of the restrictions placed on me, then he would gladly act as my subject for this demonstration. I miss Drew!

3  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:24pm 
Doug Williams wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 5:21pm:
Dan Mangan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 3:51pm:
Here are a few tidbits from the APA magazine piece in which Ray Nelson walks back the use of computerized algorithms for scoring a polygraph "test"...

"...there is no form of physiological activity that is unique to deception, meaning that the polygraph test does not so much detect deception..."

ďOne APA member summed up the [algorithm] difficulty nicely...'I donít use algorithms because I donít know how they work.' "


"...APA accredited polygraph training programs have provided little or no information on algorithms because there is no requirement to use computer algorithms, and because people donít know enough about them."


"...it makes little sense to use a method, technology or tool that is not reasonably well understood, and for which accountable answers cannot be provided as to how a decision was made."

"From [an] ethical perspective there may be serious problems with transferring responsibility for human decision-making to a black-box machine process.


I find it amazing that this kind of sober introspection regarding the use of polygraph "test" scoring algorithms is only now making its way to APA members.

One has to wonder how many lives have been ruined over the past quarter-century by the exuberant and reckless use of such statistical alchemy.


Well said Dan and to that point I think there should be some way to hold the thugs and charlatans in the US government polygraph industry who have been perpetrating this fraud accountable.† Iím working on two things at present - one is an idea I have to try to get some attorneys interested in class action and individual lawsuits to sue the polygraph examiners for fraud by claiming to be able to detect deception with a polygraph while knowing all along that this is not possible and further that by their prosecution of me they have admitted that the polygraph is worthless as a lie detector if the charts can be eaten so easily manipulated by anyone taking the test to come up with the desired results Ė pass or fail - pick whichever one you like. Check this out when you get a chance and see if you can help me fine tune it also if you know any attorneys that might be interested in working on this please ask them to chime in. http://www.polygraph.com/sue-the-bastards.html

Iím also working on a motion to ask the judge to at the very least safe guard all the records of the discovery in my case and forward them to the DOJ/IG and the DHS/IG for further review. I really believe thereís an issue with national security here if the government continues to rely on a polygraph instrument after having prosecuted me for proving how easily it can be beaten by anyone with a modicum of intelligence and preparation. I would welcome any comments you have on either of these ideas I have here. http://www.polygraph.com/the-motion.html


How about it? Does anyone else out there in the anti-polygraph community or even the havenít-quite-made-up-my-mind-yet community care to help me out with my proposal for a lawsuit and a motion to safeguard the records of my case in the interests of national security? Am I onto something here or am I once again charging at windmills as I have done so often in the past four decades?

4  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:47am 
Dan Mangan wrote on Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:35am:
Doug, I feel your pain. I really do.

I hesitate to get more involved. Here's why...

Whenever I get too chatty on AP or elsewhere on the 'net, wherein I voice my concerns about the bogus elements of polygraph "testing," I routinely get mysterious inquiries from would-be test-takers who claim they need special *help* with particular questions.

So far, not a single one of the "mysterious" curious birds has been able to pass my "sincerity" test . Naturally, I take a pass.

But it gets scary.

Having worked behind prison walls for over five years, and given what you endured, I'm most cautious to say the very least.

Not-so-fun fact: A couple of years ago, George made a trip to Massachusetts, which is my home state.† I was hoping to meet up with him, have a beer, compare notes, and have a few laughs along the way.

Turns out that I was sternly advised by a couple of sympathetic feds -- who know of my polygraph-realist stances -- that such contact could be detrimental.

In short, at this stage of the game, I don't need the aggravation.

I'm essentially retired and living comfortably.

Bottom line: Sometimes the bastards win.





I understand completely Dan and I really do appreciate your honesty. But please know that I will never stop fighting and the more they try to do to stop me, the more intense my desire to utterly destroy that evil industry and hold the thugs and charlatans who perpetrate that evil fraud up to the contempt and ridicule they so richly deserve becomes.

5  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 4th, 2019 at 12:35am 
Doug, I feel your pain. I really do.

I hesitate to get more involved. Here's why...

Whenever I get too chatty on AP or elsewhere on the 'net, wherein I voice my concerns about the bogus elements of polygraph "testing," I routinely get mysterious inquiries from would-be test-takers who claim they need special *help* with particular questions.

So far, not a single one of those curious birds has been able to pass my "sincerity" test . Naturally, I take a pass.

But it gets scary nonetheless.

Having worked behind prison walls for over five years, and given what you endured, I'm most cautious to say the very least.

Not-so-fun fact: A couple of years ago, George made a trip to Massachusetts, which is my home state.† I was hoping to meet up with him, have a beer, compare notes, and have a few laughs along the way.

Turns out that I was sternly advised by a couple of sympathetic feds -- who know of my polygraph-realist stances -- that such contact could be detrimental.

In short, at this stage of the game, I don't need the aggravation.

I'm essentially retired and living comfortably. (Polygraph was my second career.)

Bottom line: Sometimes the bastards win.




I will continue to speak the truth about the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph "testing."

6  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 5:21pm 
Dan Mangan wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 3:51pm:
Here are a few tidbits from the APA magazine piece in which Ray Nelson walks back the use of computerized algorithms for scoring a polygraph "test"...

"...there is no form of physiological activity that is unique to deception, meaning that the polygraph test does not so much detect deception..."

ďOne APA member summed up the [algorithm] difficulty nicely...'I donít use algorithms because I donít know how they work.' "


"...APA accredited polygraph training programs have provided little or no information on algorithms because there is no requirement to use computer algorithms, and because people donít know enough about them."


"...it makes little sense to use a method, technology or tool that is not reasonably well understood, and for which accountable answers cannot be provided as to how a decision was made."

"From [an] ethical perspective there may be serious problems with transferring responsibility for human decision-making to a black-box machine process.


I find it amazing that this kind of sober introspection regarding the use of polygraph "test" scoring algorithms is only now making its way to APA members.

One has to wonder how many lives have been ruined over the past quarter-century by the exuberant and reckless use of such statistical alchemy.


Well said Dan and to that point I think there should be some way to hold the thugs and charlatans in the US government polygraph industry who have been perpetrating this fraud accountable.† Iím working on two things at present - one is an idea I have to try to get some attorneys interested in class action and individual lawsuits to sue the polygraph examiners for fraud by claiming to be able to detect deception with a polygraph while knowing all along that this is not possible and further that by their prosecution of me they have admitted that the polygraph is worthless as a lie detector if the charts can be eaten so easily manipulated by anyone taking the test to come up with the desired results Ė pass or fail - pick whichever one you like. Check this out when you get a chance and see if you can help me fine tune it also if you know any attorneys that might be interested in working on this please ask them to chime in. http://www.polygraph.com/sue-the-bastards.html

Iím also working on a motion to ask the judge to at the very least safe guard all the records of the discovery in my case and forward them to the DOJ/IG and the DHS/IG for further review. I really believe thereís an issue with national security here if the government continues to rely on a polygraph instrument after having prosecuted me for proving how easily it can be beaten by anyone with a modicum of intelligence and preparation. I would welcome any comments you have on either of these ideas I have here. http://www.polygraph.com/the-motion.html

7  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 3:51pm 
Here are a few tidbits from the APA magazine piece in which Ray Nelson walks back the use of computerized algorithms for scoring a polygraph "test"...

"...there is no form of physiological activity that is unique to deception, meaning that the polygraph test does not so much detect deception..."

ďOne APA member summed up the [algorithm] difficulty nicely...'I donít use algorithms because I donít know how they work.' "


"...APA accredited polygraph training programs have provided little or no information on algorithms because there is no requirement to use computer algorithms, and because people donít know enough about them."


"...it makes little sense to use a method, technology or tool that is not reasonably well understood, and for which accountable answers cannot be provided as to how a decision was made."

"From [an] ethical perspective there may be serious problems with transferring responsibility for human decision-making to a black-box machine process.


I find it amazing that this kind of sober introspection regarding the use of polygraph "test" scoring algorithms is only now making its way to APA members.

One has to wonder how many lives have been ruined over the past quarter-century by the exuberant and reckless use of such statistical alchemy.

8  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 2:48pm 
Poor old Raymond - heís finally beginning to wrestle with the very stubborn fact that itís damn difficult to use the polygraph to detect deception when there is no reaction that ALWAYS, (or even most of the time), indicates deception. Now thatís a real problem when youíre trying to figure out a scoring algorithm. Another problem is the problem of ďcountermeasuresď- a problem that I am responsible for and Iím proud of it Ė I think it was Webb himself who once said that a primary indicator of the use of countermeasures was a ďperfectď polygraph chart. So, in other words, you have a person who does a good job and produces too perfect a chart, thatís evidence, (in the eyes of the polygraph examiner), that they have manipulated the chart tracings and were attempting to ďbeatď test.

9  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 2:20pm 
Doug, this most intriguing exercise in apologetics -- authored by none other than OSS3 co-creator Ray Nelson himself -- starts with the third paragraph of Ray's column, which can be found on page 30 of the APA magazine (page 38 of the pdf) and continues throughout his piece.

Please tell us what you think about Ray's cautionary tale.

Perhaps Ray will chime in.   (cue crickets)

10  Polygraph and CVSA Forums / Polygraph Policy / Re: FROM THE LATEST APA MAGAZINE: "For now, the APA Board has decided to stand down on any Standard of Practice regarding computer algorithms."
 on: Nov 3rd, 2019 at 1:34pm 
Hey Dan, itís good to see you posting again but I canít seem to find the passage
you were citing about their movement away from scoring algorithms. Could you give us a quick synopsis of it please? Thanks, Doug Williams

 
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