I recently joined this website to tell everyone about my experience when i was polygraphed and the amount of hate i have towards this screening proccess. I dont know about other people but about seven months ago i applied to become a police officer in an L.A county department but was refused acceptance when i failed to pass my polygraph when i told the truth.
   I was wondering if anyone could tell me why this department did what they did to me after i did everything that was asked about me. As a police officer recruite i took my first polygraph at intercept inc. After i took my polygraph the poligrapher interigated me for about two hours trying to get me to admit to something i had not done...He was accusing me of lying on the question,"have you commited a serious undisclosed crime?" my answer was no.... like anything other applicant im not perfect... but i never did anything in my past that was past stealing chewing gum which i told them about... unfurtunatley since i didnt pass and since i didnt have anything to tell the polygrapher my test was deemed inconclusive even after he tried to make me admit to something.
   After two weeks of waiting my background investigater called me in and conducted his own interrigation, and he then asked me at the end to take a second polygraph since my first was inconclusive. After i took this polygraph i was certain that this method of testing a persons credibility was complete bull. I told the truth but came out a "deceiver".... actually i came out to be 97% deceiving after my second polygraph which i was then disqualified. After another two weeks i received a letter in the mail that formally anounced that i was no longer in the highering process becuase of background issues. I then appealed this disqualification and was granted one more polygraph which i then came out to be inconclusive agian.
   I seriously dont know what to say anymore but im really upset. I scored the highest on the written test, PAT, and the Oral to be first on the hiring list until this stupid polygraph. I was wondering if someone could tell me what an inconclusive test result actually means, and if they disqualify me becuase of that, and also can they overlook a polygraph result if they really wanted to. If someone could answer my question and tell me what my experience really met i would appreciate it becuase i have another polygraph test with a different agency next month and i dont want to fail it when im telling the truth.

An "inconclusive" result means that your reactions to relevant questions were about as strong as your reactions to the so-called "control" questions. The key to passing is to show stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis, and the erroneous results do not mean that there is anything wrong with you. It is polygraphy that is flawed. For more on polygraph procedure, and how to reduce the risk of a false positive on your upcoming polygraph examination, see Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

To address your other question, yes, agencies sometimes do play fast and loose with polygraph results. For example, Roy Ortiz, the head of the LAPD's polygraph unit, was credibly accused of altering polygraph results. This scandal was successfully swept under the rug by the LAPD.

Note also that Ed Gelb, who operates Intercept Inc. and has a contract to provide polygraph services to the Long Beach Police Department, is fraudulently passing himself off as a Ph.D. in marketing his firm's services. However, the American Polygraph Association doesn't consider this to be an ethics violation.

Ed Gelb was the guy i had my last polygraph with. Although i don't like any of those polygraphers he was the most professional out of all them. There was this one polygrapher from L.A.P.D that was privately contracted with the agency that i was applying for who gave me a really hard time. One thing that i must say is that these polygraphers are very persistent and some can be even hard to talk to..... the first polygrapher that i went to accused me of using countermeasures..... To be honest I had no clue what the word counter measure meant until my background investigator informed of the accusation... which ultimatley made me go and research to see what i had done from that lead me to this point. I have one other question.... If your baseline for the control questions and the relevant questions are about the same, then shouldn't they pass you since there's no difference... i would have thought that if your lying you would show a bigger more obvious reaction to a question? Also if it wouldn't be of any trouble i would like to know why i would be declared 97% deceiving once and then inconclusive two other times.

gorgikla22 wrote on Apr 8^th, 2007 at 9:56am:

...the first polygrapher that i went to accused me of using countermeasures..... To be honest I had no clue what the word counter measure meant until my background investigator informed of the accusation... which ultimatley made me go and research to see what i had done from that lead me to this point.

I, too, was falsely accused of using countermeasures by a polygraph operator (Ervin Youngblood, LAPD). Like you, at the time, I didn't even know what polygraph countermeasures are. You can read more about my polygraph experience here.


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I have one other question.... If your baseline for the control questions and the relevant questions are about the same, then shouldn't they pass you since there's no difference... i would have thought that if your lying you would show a bigger more obvious reaction to a question?

Well, that's not the way it works. If the reactions are about the same, it's deemed "inconclusive."


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Also if it wouldn't be of any trouble i would like to know why i would be declared 97% deceiving once and then inconclusive two other times.

Note that while there are computerized scoring algorithms that purport to represent with mathematical precision the likelihood that an examinee is truthful or deceptive, such claims are unfounded, and were recognized as such by the National Academy of Sciences in its comprensive research review, The Polygraph and Lie Detection (see Appendix F).

As for how you could fail once and come up inconclusive twice, ask yourself: would you be surprised if you shook a Magic 8-Ball and the answers returned were not all the same? Or if you flipped a coin three times and the outcome was not each time the same? One should not be surprised when an invalid test yields inaccurate results.

Im not sure but i think that we had the same polygrapher.....Ervin Youngblood.... Was he a black male? if it was, he gave me the hardest time in the world. From the beginning of my test he was telling me that i was lying, using different types of counter measures to manipulate the polygraph....he too interrigated me trying to get me to admit to something when there was nothing to tell him.

gorgikla22 wrote on Apr 8^th, 2007 at 7:08pm:

Im not sure but i think that we had the same polygrapher.....Ervin Youngblood.... Was he a black male? if it was, he gave me the hardest time in the world. From the beginning of my test he was telling me that i was lying, using different types of counter measures to manipulate the polygraph....he too interrigated me trying to get me to admit to something when there was nothing to tell him.

That is indeed the very same Ervin Youngblood who angrily (but falsely) accused me of using countermeasures when I took my polygraph for the Anti-Terrorist Division.

Wow i cant believe he did that to you too. You know for me it was really hard to understand that i would fail something that the government heavily relies on. When i first applied with my agency the only problem i thought i would have ever had was passing the oral test since i heard that over 75% of the applicants fail that test, but when i scored the highest among all the applicants i thought it would be a breeze until the academy since i had nothing in my background that was bad nor did i have to lie about something. I have wanted to ask you something, have you worked with another agency since you applied with L.A.P.D or will anyother department hire you since they know your opinion about the polygraph and knowledge to beat it.

I have not applied for any law enforcement positions since that time, though I continued to serve as a reserve military intelligence officer for some time afterwards. As you'll see toward the end of my statement, in 2001, the 902nd Military Intelligence Group's polygraph unit did not want to polygraph me because of my opinion regarding polygraphy.

I wanted to ask you one more thing, i was wondering if you could give me some advice for my next polygraph.

gorgikla22 wrote on Apr 9^th, 2007 at 12:31am:

I wanted to ask you one more thing, i was wondering if you could give me some advice for my next polygraph.

As I mentioned earlier, I suggest that you read through The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You might consider adopting the "complete honesty" approach described in Chapter 4. Because of your past experience with the polygraph (which you'll be asked about), any polygrapher is going to have a hard time believing that you haven't researched polygraphy. While there is little chance that telling the polygrapher that you've read about polygraph procedure and countermeasures will result in the polygraph requirement being waived, your candor might be received as an indication of your intent to answer relevant questions truthfully.

Hey guys...I have a similar problem. I was accused of having non-consensual relations with a girl based on her consumption of alcohol. I certainly did feel she was coherent enough to consent, although she said she does not recall anything. My school sent me to a counseling center who refereed me to another guy who is a former polygraphist and a MSW. He recommended a polygraph with another man, so with nothing to lose but my higher education, I quickly said yes.

I was given a full disclosure about everything in my sexual history. Then the test was given. Apparently both men thought I was forthright, honest, and had nothing to hide (obviously they are correct because if I lie to them, I could get kicked out of school.

My first test was a few months ago, and I told the truth on every question, again because if I lie, I'm screwed. The test came back inconclusive and like gorg, I was interrogated and he kept asking, why are you not being truthful? I said I don't know what to tell you because I've told you everything. He said well you can tell me the truth, and it went on like that for a while.

Needless to say, without another test, I would get decent report to my school but as of now, they feel the case is not yet done until I complete another test which is this Thursday. This is a crime if you ask me.

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Needless to say, without another test, I would get decent report to my school but as of now, they feel the case is not yet done until I complete another test which is this Thursday. This is a crime if you ask me.

I've never heard of a school requiring a polygraph test.  Have you talk to a lawyer?  Is this in the U.S. ?

You have a legal right to refuse to take a polygraph test.  If they ask, tell them i you discovered that the polygraph has no scientific basis and you are no longer willing to participate in such a bogus process..  Your first hand experience with the polygraph should now convince you of that.

As you have discovered, a criminal polygraph test is nothing more than an excuse for law enforcement to interrogate you, under duress, WITHOUT legal representation present.  People volunteer for it because, like most, they believe in the popular myth that the polygraph can detect deception.  I doesn't.  DO NOT MAKE ANY ADMISSIONS!  Insist on legal representation.

The police will probably give you a hard time and accuse you of trying to hide something.  Emphasize that you now know the truth about the polygraph.  Ask if the test in mandatory or VOLUNTARY.  If voluntary, ask him if he is trying to intimidate you, and abridge your rights.

Have you been formally charged with anything?

If your school give you a hard time, refer them to some of the reference materials available at this site.

Incidently, it is EXTREMELY important you do not self incriminate yourself during any future polygraph interrogation if the polygraph operator insists the machine is showing deception.  Again, it can't do that.  They are just trying to force some sort of  confession out of you even though you might be innocent and telling the truth.  We have laws in this country against self incrimination.

 You are under NO OBLIGATION to talk to the police unless you have been  formally charged.  CONSULT AN ATTORNEY BEFORE RETESTING!!!!  Cancel the test if necessary.  Better yet, have your attorney do it!

TC

The reason this is going on is because I was referred by the school to a counseling center who referred me to these people. THIS IS STRICTLY THROUGH THE SCHOOL, no law enforcement. It is a weird way to go about it but either way, the school wanted me to follow through with it. I feel like the school administrators are a bit wary about this, and regardless of the outcome of the test, I'm hoping they will take action based on how I was with the people, not with the test.

If I don't go through with this test, it would further drag out this situation, and possibly look to my guilt, not complying with the schools wishes, and be suspended. But if I do take it and have another inconclusive or a fail, I could still be kept at school with certain sanctions I suppose. I would love to tell the school that this test really means nothing to me but at the same time they ordered me to do something and I feel like if I show I am going through the steps to get everything done, they will see that I am really trying to clear my name.

A counseling center MSW referring you to a polygrapher?  That doesn't sound like "counselling" to me.  So the government and law enforcement is not involved?  I still think taking the test is voluntary.  The counselor may be under the impression that the polygraph is accurate.  Show him/her the NAS report.  I don't think a counselor can force you to take a polygraph.  How old are you?  Are you a legal adult?   If not, are your parents or legal guardian involved?

If you do retest, at least now you know what it is all about.  The machine can not detect whether you are telling the truth or not.  Polygraphers want you to disbelieve your own mind.  It's all about intimidating you with the machine to get you to say what THEY want to hear.  Don't fall for it.  Just tell the truth.  If they continue to accuse you of lying when you aren't, there is not much you can do about it.

If the polygraph operator continues to  accuse you of lying based on the machine, tell them there is really nothing you can do about that.  You don't believe it, and doubt the test is valid.  You are telling the truth, and you are sticking to your story.  If the squiggle marks on their machine says you are lying, so be it.  You're not going to be intimidated by a machine.   But DO NOT MAKE ADMISSIONS because of what the squiggly marks are divining.  It is bogus.

I am assuming you are telling the truth about fully disclosing whatever they wanted you to disclose.  If you are lying, and  actually "date raped" a girl, I have no pity for you!

I still think you should consult an attorney.  You may have a legal case against the school if they give you the boot based on a polygraph test.   Did you sign any of your rights away?  You might consider giving your school authorities a copy of the NAS report  (can be downloaded from the home page of this website).  They may not be aware that this prestigious scientific body has concluded that the polygraph is not a scientifically valid test.


TC

Actually, the NAS report is not available for download from AntiPolygraph.org. However, it may be read on-line here:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309084369

A more succinct refutation of polygraphy is available in the form of William G. Iacono's article, "Forensic 'Lie Detection': Procedures Without Scientific Basis," which may be viewed and printed out here:

https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-018.shtml

TM, thanks for your help, and thanks for your link George. I am telling you what happened, theres a whole background story I will not disclose here, but it was basically did i knowingly take advantage of someone. I absolutley did not. Yes I'm at least 18, my parents know what is going on, and I think when I told the school admins the course of action this MSW wanted to take, they were a little taken a back. I dont think this is the route they wanted to take.  

While knowing she had taken at least 1 drink, I was in violation of the student code of conduct. I did not appear to be totally trashed. It was either take these courses and hope they see I have tried hard to get my good name back, or take it to a school tribunal where the punishment could have been harsher. Thus, I chose to sign a paper of recognition that I had violated the schools policy and take these steps.

I would like to keep attorneys out of this because if it leaves the school grounds, it could result in a criminal complaint. I dont want to go to jail is basically what I am saying. If I am not invited back to the school I will ask them for the underlying reasons and if the polygraph is one of them I may try to take some action.

Reminds me of the movie with Al Pacino "Scent of a Woman".
OO-RAH!  OO-RAH!

Good luck!

TC

Right, so I took the test yesteday and failed. Told the truth through and through. Dont know what to make of this. I was being attacked with ideas that my school was going to start criminal proceedings if I didn't tell the truth (which I was) and I am strongly leaning to civil action against the school if they decide to throw me out. I talked to the councilor and he said he was surprised, and that his report to the school would use the polygraphs but not put all weight on it. He this expulsion would be very extreme. So I have to wait until the tester gets his report to the councilor, and he gets his to the school. I think the school has to decide whether I am a threat or not. And if I am deemed so based on a polygraph, I would like to take action against the school for kicking me out using unsubstantiated evidence. Thoughts?

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I was being attacked with ideas that my school was going to start criminal proceedings if I didn't tell the truth (which I was)

How did you respond?  Did you tell him what you thought about their little contraption?

Sounds like he was determined to fail you no matter what.   You are under no obligation to sit there and take any abuse.  I would answer any given line of questioning once and only once.  As for telling you the school was  going to start criminal proceedings, you could have used that as an excuse to stop cooperating with him by saying anything further since criminal proceedings were pending.  Just ask if he needed to run anymore charts, otherwise just tell him you have nothing else to say.  If the school asked, tell them he said you were going to initiate criminal proceedings, and didn't think it prudent to say anything more.

He was gonna fail you anyway.  Might as well have called him on everything he said or claimed.  Twist his words around for a change.

Good luck with whatever civil action you take.  Maybe you find a good laywer  from this website.

TC

I told him that I didn't care what his machine said because i was telling the truth. He said it wasnt his machine, it was my heart that was beating faster all 3 times during the same question. I said I wasn't going to tell him something that wasn't true and that the school shoudn't take legal action without stricly using methods that are unproven and cannot hold up in court. He said I'll be glad to tell that to the judge when i testify because I have testified about people passing polygraphs and they get acquited.

Needless to say, I know none of you people know me, and know if I am really telling the truth, but I appreciate the help as if I am innocent, which I truly am. But I am absolutley floored that my higher education could be railroaded by a polygraph that has no basis for legal or scientific standing. I also want to ask what impact having anxiety has on these tests, which I suffer from. The first test I was way more anxious but was deemed inconclusive. This one, my heart was pounding, but he said it was pounding more often during a particular question. Regardless of whether polygraphs are reliable, would anxiety throw them off?

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The first test I was way more anxious but was deemed inconclusive. This one, my heart was pounding, but he said it was pounding more often during a particular question. Regardless of whether polygraphs are reliable, would anxiety throw them off?

Read the quote at the bottom of my posts by Dr. Phil Zimbardo who was Chairman of the Psychology Dept. at Standford University.

Increased "Fight, flight, freeze" reactions as measure by the polygraph do NOT equate unequivocally to 'deception'.   So you could have told him that.  If he is focusing on one question and falsely accusing you of lying, then your mind could easily label that question as a "bogey" question and your subconscious will produce a defensive or "fight" response.  Has nothing directly to do with lying or holding back information.   Just that your brain is being "defensive" about that question, because it is THAT question he is calling you a liar on, when you are being truthful.  Don't you think that is enough to make a truthfull person react?

You actually have three brains.  The "cortex" (seat of concsious thought), which influences  the "lymbic system" (seat of emotions) which sends signals to the "brain stem", which unconsciously controls your heart rate, sweat glands, adrenal gland...etc.

Anyway, sounds like you got the hang of it.  Sometimes it's best to just call a polygrapher "out" .  After all, he was lying to you.  Don't just take what he say's as gospel.   Make him back up his claims and hopefully catch him in a lie!  They you have grounds for just saying, "hey, you're bull shitting me here.  I am trying to be honest, but I'm starting to see this for the sham it is!".

Of course that will piss off most polygraph operators, but like I said, looked like he was going to fail you anyway.

Mark johnson

Did you unknowingly take advantage of another student?

I did not knowingly do it, no. I had seen her take drinks in front of me by serveral things that happened over the course of that night that led me to believe that she was very coherent and knew what was going on. I contacted her the next day and she said she did not know what happened. That is what i have been saying from day one. I signed a paper that said I violated the sexual assault policy at school because I wanted to get things behind me, and if I didnt, I didnt know if worse consequences would come. I was a little hamstrung but I wanted to avoid going to a 'trial' type phase through the schools judiciary board, where worse stipulations could have been imposed.

Mark johnson

So you failed a polygraph about a sexual assault that you had already admitted to?

The one question I failed was whether or not I had knowingly touched a woman inappropiately when they were incappacitated or passed out. That I have never done! I did have sex with this woman, she was apparently too drunk to remember anything...I now have no way to prove my innocence about that because these people are dead set on polygraphs. The therapist did say tho that he thinks I need a limited amount of counceling compared to the felons he works with, which is what the school wanted in the first place. But he doesnt think I should be interrupted from school. Now, the school admins have to choose which course of action to take.

Mark johnson

Just once more to be sure I understand.  You took a polygraph to prove you didnt really commit a sexual assault, ever though you had already signed a "paper" (sometimes called a confession) in which you admitted you did.  So you want the poly to prove you lied when you confessed?  Dude, really?

Mark Johnson

I don't think anyone has told you that you can't legally be judged guilty or innocent solely by a ploygraph. If your education is interupted by the polygrapher and his machine and the school,  then my strong suggestion is that you sue both.

I will defiantly heed your advice and take action if something is done against me based on these polygraphs.

pailryder, I understand your confusion so I REWRITE what I have already said earlier. I signed an admittence to violation of the sexual assault policy. It offered me a way to stay in school without going to a board which could have expelled me (deffered suspension). As per the admittence, I would stay in school as long as I completed some educational processes, i.e. couciling with a sex ed. teacher, meeting with a group in the city. The group that I was reffered to did not have the resources to deal with my case and reffered me to another man, who wanted to give me a polygraph to confirm his suspicions that this incident was not malicious or preconcieved and that I did not need follow up counciling. If I did not take it, I would need counciling which would last longer and cost more. This was the quickest way to deal with the issue, although it has come back to blow up in my face.

One more thing twoblock...the counselor and polygrapher have told me I can be judged accordingly. They said it usually doesnt happen because the defense and the DA have to agree to do it on both sides. However, the defense usually doesnt agree to it and thus it is not allowable because both dont agree to it. I told him that makes me feel wary of the justice system because polygraphs arent 100%. It doesnt make sense. That sounds like BS to me. If the defense doesnt want a bloody knife in evidence can they not agree to it??? If courts truly recognized polygraphs there would be no need for lawyers to argue innocence of guilt. Are they blatantly lying to me??? The counselor said.."I am not making this up."

If this is true, and i brought up a civil suit, could the polygraph then be entered into evidence of a criminal suit against me because that evidence has already been enetered into a court of law??

Mark Johnson

You will have study the laws in your state for the correct answer.  They are correct that the polygraph results would have to be agreed to bt both sides in order for it to be intered as evidence. Even then some judges will not allow it because they know the polygraph does not detect lies. Defense lawyers are stupid to want to agree to do this and should be replaced.  I am not a lawyer, but my advice is to hold your ground and let them know that there will be legal action if your education is interrupted by this malarky. They are illinformed if they think they can make it stick. Have them research this website.

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If I did not take it, I would need counciling which would last longer and cost more. This was the quickest way to deal with the issue, although it has come back to blow up in my face.

Never, EVER sign something without showing it to a lawyer FIRST and learning ALL potential legal ramifications.  For all you know, the fact that you signed what you did may now make it difficult to sue the school.  IOW, it may hold them harmless since you signed ADMITTING you needed help!  

If you had REFUSED to sign, steadfastly maintaining that you were innocent of any wrongdoing, and they kicked you out WITHOUT ANY PROOF of wrongdoing (and a failed poly without admissions is not proof), then you might have a better legal case.

Was the girl found guilty of anything?  Example, passed out drunk on school grounds...etc.?  Did you or she have any bruises or scratch marks?  Was there ANY evidence at all that the sex was NOT CONSENSUAL?  Is the female taking any responsibility in this, or just trying to protect her reputation and not wanting to be known as a drunken tramp whore on campus by playing the "date rape" card?

Lastly, was the girl given alcohol abuse counselling over the incident?

These are questions any lawyer will probably ask you.  When in doubt, seek legal advice!

So can someone please inform me... I recently applied and got interviewed for a deputy position in a county jail. That being said I of course had to take a polygraph test. My test came out "Inconclusive" because of the fact I moved my neck a little.... Is this a possible reason for the test to result inconclusive... Is this a possible reason for them to deny me completely even though I passed my physical exam, written exam etc.

Someone please let me know something!!!

Adam,
An "Inconclusive" should only be the call if the scoring results do not numerically fit into DI or NDI.

It appears that many are now calling results "Inconclusive" if they see what they deem attempts at purposeful non-cooperation. Unfortunately, these calls are subjective and often wrong.

Often times inconclusive is often a cop out for piss poor test. 

Don't get me wrong, they do happen; but some examiners actions, and huge inconclusive rates here in texas often make me wonder if inconclusive really mean, "just another test fee." 


Everyone knows why I feel that way; and it is important to note, I can only speak as to my experience as an examiner in Texas.

Whenever I hear the word "inconclusive" I become very suspicious 

I paid $400 for a polygraph to prove DCS and court officials are litereally illegally charging me with me ex boyfriends crimes who is in prison for those crimes. This has been pending for almost 3 yrs now they officially stole my 2 BABYS 2yrs old and 4yrs old 3 months ago claiming I failed for meth but refuse to double confirm the drug test. I am prescribed ritilan and BronKaid the day they gave me a mouthswab over a false accusation. I took 2 polygraphs now and was told both time inconclusive which is bull shit never got the charts only the paper that's typed saying its was both inconclusive. I'm so confused and don't understand it.