To my knowledge, CBP polygraph operators use their real names when polygraphing applicants. I found a LinkedIn profile for Larry Gordon as well as an American Polygraph Association directory entry (he has been a member since 2002). The New York State Polygraph Examiners Association also lists Larry Gordon as a member.

---

11x-RANGER wrote on May 14^th, 2013 at 2:37am:

What he did to me is ILLEGAL and I want to press charges but I don’t know where to begin. -CHRIS TSINTAVIS, U.S ARMY VET -347-6965731 ZEPHYR9989@VERIZON.NET

The CBP Polygraph operators are out of control (as are all of these con men).  I suggest you contact this attorney:

http://pilotlawcorp.com/staff/brian-j-lawler-founder-and-shareholder/


He is assisting Vets who are filing a class action lawsuit against the CBP polygraph unit.

thank you all for the most generous information!!

I dont understand why spend 3-4000 on processing. i went to through the same process and did not spend any penny. i went through polygraph. I never did anything wrong and i passed it. You can nod  your head while polygraph testing. any movement will fail you. I see that you said you never did anything wrong but smoked pot???? come on dude.....

jasonnyc,

Congratulations on passing your polygraph. In 2012, U.S. Customs and Border Protection had a polygraph pass rate of only about one in three. There can be no doubt but that many qualified, truthful applicants are falsely branded as liars as a result of erroneous polygraph results and as a result are wrongly blacklisted from employment. It's unfair to individuals and deprives the U.S. government of the services of well-qualified applicants.

Making matters worse, spies, saboteurs, terrorists, or narcotraffickers can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraph operators cannot detect. U.S. Customs and Border Protection's outlandish criminal investigation of Chad Dixon and Doug Williams for teaching people how to pass the polygraph is testimony to the polygraph community's frustration over its inability to detect countermeasures.

Your snarky comments to 11x-RANGER are completely out of line. He explained why he incurred costs in connection with his CBP application. The head nodding he mentioned would have been in connection with the "Silent Answer Test," a polygraph technique that you'll find explained in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. And 11x-RANGER didn't say he "never did anything wrong but smoked pot." Rather, he wrote that he "never did anything bad in [his] life to exclude [him] from law enforcement."

Your lack of empathy for others (and limited reading and critical thinking skills) might make you a good candidate for polygraph school.

George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 18^th, 2013 at 5:35pm:

jasonnyc, Congratulations on passing your polygraph. In 2012, U.S. Customs and Border Protection had a polygraph pass rate of only about one in three. There can be no doubt but that many qualified, truthful applicants are falsely branded as liars as a result of erroneous polygraph results and as a result are wrongly blacklisted from employment. It's unfair to individuals and deprives the U.S. government of the services of well-qualified applicants. Making matters worse, spies, saboteurs, terrorists, or narcotraffickers can pass the polygraph using simple countermeasures that polygraph operators cannot detect. U.S. Customs and Border Protection's outlandish criminal investigation of Chad Dixon and Doug Williams for teaching people how to pass the polygraph is testimony to the polygraph community's frustration over its inability to detect countermeasures. Your snarky comments to 11x-RANGER are completely out of line. He explained why he incurred costs in connection with his CBP application. The head nodding he mentioned would have been in connection with the "Silent Answer Test," a polygraph technique that you'll find explained in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. And 11x-RANGER didn't say he "never did anything wrong but smoked pot." Rather, he wrote that he "never did anything bad in [his] life to exclude [him] from law enforcement." Your lack of empathy for others (and limited reading and critical thinking skills) might make you a good candidate for polygraph school.

   
I agree with you George, but with one slight exception, I think this guy is already a polygraph operator. Just another troll wasting tax payers money. Probably from the CBP office of credibility assessment.  :P

I had a very similar experience to 11xranger.  I too am in the military and hold a TS/SCI. 

To 11x, were you ever able to get an answer regarding if you can take legal action to clear your name? I have the same fear that this may hurt my chances of finding other LEO employment.

It's a shame and it extremely saddens that so many veterans have been rejected from CBP supposedly for lying during the polygraph examination. I am also a US Army veteran; ever since I was about 12 years old I made my career goal to become a US Border Patrol agent. Once I turned 18 I thought that it would be a great idea to get a BA in criminal justice and join the military in order to get some experience in that field as well. So I joined as a Military Policeman and eventually became a Military Police Investigator after attending a couple of schools. I obtained a BA in criminal justice, a top secret clearance and deployed to Afghanistan twice for a year on each occasion. I served 8 years in the military and after getting out applied for BP. A few weeks ago I went to my polygraph examination for Border Patrol after having passed absolutely everything and had been waiting on them for 3 years. My experience was very similar to 11xranger, the special agent pretended to act like my buddy and was very friendly at first. I have never been involved in any type of criminal activities nor used any type of drugs in my whole life. Ever since I was a kid I have been extremely responsible and wanted to follow a right path by being a law abiding citizen 100%. I've always had in the back of my mind that I wanted to work in the law enforcement field and that I had to hold myself to those standards.

The questions that were asked to me were very broad and on several occasions I had problems and was told that I was lying. For example I was asked if I had ever stolen anything. Right away I knew that I had never done such a thing but once I got hooked up to the machine I would start second guessing myself and getting nervous. I would then dig deep inside the back of my mind to try to remember if I had done such a thing in the past. After that portion of the test was completed I was told that I had failed that question. I proceeded to tell the examiner that that was kind of a broad question and told him that I may have possibly stolen a few things in the past. Things like an apple from a co-worker that may have been sitting in a fridge at work, a pen from a hotel, lotion from a hotel and so on. The examiner told me that he wasn't referring to those kind of things; he said that he meant valuable objects such of $500 dollars and over. He then later asked me the question again and I passed it. I had trouble with about 3 other questions the same way and each time that he told me that I was lying and I explained to him what might have caused that, he would ask me the questions again and I would pass them. Around 3pm I was told that I was going to be asked 5 more questions about National Security concern and I would be done with the examination. I became very excited and happy knowing that everything was going well so far, I was about to be done and that the topic that we were about to discuss would absolutely not make me second guess myself whatsoever during the questioning. As we commenced with the last portion of the test I was asked questions such as are you a terrorist?, do you have foreign contacts with whom you are involved in criminal activities? and things of that sort. After we were done the examiner told me that the machine had gone crazy when he asked one question in particular and he then said that I had failed. I was EXTREMELY HONEST during the whole process and even disclosed things that weren't even asked nor even possibly mattered just to get of my chest since I felt guilty for doing. Such as lying to a girlfriend once and having gone to a strip club while dating her. I believe that if any... that might be the biggest sin which I could be accused of.

I am extremely angry and disappointed with the fact that so many good candidates have been rejected from CBP after falsely being called liars after their polygraph examinations. I was myself called a liar, a terrorist and a traitor to my country. A country which I love and after having served for 8 years wanted to continue to serve as a Border Patrol agent. I am a patriot and would do absolutely anything for my country and would volunteer in a heartbeat to serve in the frontline no matter how many times are necessary in order to defend it. But now I am called a traior to my beloved country, a terrorist and a liar by an incompetent special agent and a stupid machine? Being a Border Patrol Agent has been one of my goals and dreams in life. Just yesterday I received an email stating that in a few weeks I will receive an official letter withdrawing my application from CBP with no chance to appeal and that if I wish to reapply I will have to wait 3 years. I will apply in 3 years ago since I am not going to quit on my dream of becoming a Border Patrol agent; in the meantime I will pursue another of my dreams which is to be an Army Ranger and serve in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I cant see myself doing anything in life but serving my country by protecting it and fighting for it.

I feel extremely disappointed and cheated by CBP and would like to file a lawsuit. Could anyone let me know if doing such a thing is possible and if so how should I go about doing it. This needs to stop; US citizens can just sit back and let the government falsely accuse them of criminals and liars and manipulate them in anyway that they want.

Thank you very much!

Ranger, thanks for sharing. Your words are very touching. I can only offer my thoughts on what a lawsuit or other action(s) would accomplish. As the Marines say, "is this the hill you want to die on?" A clever, carefully orchestrated attack on the powers to be will definately give you a moral victory. I've known others who did this on a local government scale and when their power was challenged, they behaved like rabid animals caught in a cage. They will threaten, bite back and attempt to spin your side of it. Since they have deep pockets (our tax money) and lawyers at their disposal, you could expect a lot of push back. In short, you would have the consequence of never being able to work with them, or any other similar agency again. What you would gain would be the respect of true patriots, and your dignity and character would fall into that 1%.

All these stories are unfortunate including the douche that thinks you are a life long criminal because you smoked pot.

Here is a story for you.... I am a US Navy veteran that served 14 honorable years. I was recently Illegally separated by the Navy under the ERB program. My contract was cut short even though I still had 13 months left on my contract. I got out of the service and  passed all the Ventura County Sheriffs tests and evaluations, including a polygraph by a person who has been doing them for over 30+ yrs. Unfortunately during the Academy I injured my shoulder and had to leave because of the medical treatment I had undergo. One day I received an e-mail stating that I had a polygraph for a CBP Officer position that I had been processing for over a year and a half (prior to my discharge). I figured this was a second chance. When I arrived to the the office that the polygraphs were being performed in I noticed that it was not well set up for a polygraph. The administrator was really nice and spoke very politely. It was all good until he asked me about secret documents. I had never handled secret documents so i don't even remember answering the question in the first place. He started drilling me, and telling me every other question was fine but the question about handling secret documents. I explained to him that I had never handled secret documents, but he insisted I did. He told me that If I didn't tell him about the secret documents he was going to fail me. I finally told him that I would be lying if I told him I have ever seen secret documents. Needless to say he said I failed, let me out his office, and that was the last I heard from the CBP. I don't know what kind of people they are using to administer these polygraphs but  They need a hell of a lot more training. >:(

wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 7:00pm:

Needless to say he said I failed, let me out his office, and that was the last I heard from the CBP. I don't know what kind of people they are using to administer these polygraphs but  They need a hell of a lot more training. >:(

It is not a question of training - no amount of training will enable a polygraph operator to detect deception or verify truthfulness with a polygraph.  It is a sick joke!  All the scientific evidence proves it is no more accurate than the toss of a coin. 

After much thought, I have come to what I consider to be the only logical conclusion that can be drawn as to why government agencies, (federal, state, & local) continue to use the polygraph even though all the scientific evidence proves it is worthless as a "lie detector".  I believe they are using the polygraph as a subterfuge to avoid complying with federal employment regulations!  What else explains the 65% "failure" rate for applicants who have already passed a very thorough background investigation?  These agencies can circumvent federal laws and discriminate against people, ask illegal questions, interrogate/terrorize them for hours, and use the polygraph as an excuse to deny employment to anyone they don't want to hire.  They can be totally subjective in their hiring and firing practices when they use the polygraph, because all they have to do is to say the applicant "failed" a polygraph test.  By simply saying the person has "failed" a polygraph test, government agencies can hire and fire people at will and then just blame it on the "failed" polygraph test.  There is no way anyone can appeal a hiring or firing decision that is based on a "failed" polygraph - and those who are denied employment or terminated have no recourse - they can't bring a lawsuit for discrimination or wrongful termination!  Do I believe the government agencies who utilize the polygraph are this nefarious?  YES!  And it is tantamount to criminal negligence on the part of those charged with oversight of these government agencies to allow them to continue to use this so-called "lie detector testing"!

Doug,

There is legal recourse against polygraphers and no lawyer seems to consider this approach. They can be charged with "DELIBERATLY SLANDERING BY FALSE ACCUSATION". A thesaurus offers many alternate terms under this subject. In a court of law, a polygraph operator would have to prove his accusation that his subject was a liar. I would think any jury would favor the testee if the polygrapher could not prove his accusation because it destroyed the testee's chosen employment opportunities and his integrity was compromised. I will not get into the federal statute under which the lawsuit can be brought because they are extensive. This has to be done in federal court and any federal lawyer "should" know them. Forget a judge's decision because they will rule for the government most of the time regardless of the evidence or lack of.

Twoblock wrote on Dec 29^th, 2013 at 4:19pm:

Doug, There is legal recourse against polygraphers and no lawyer seems to consider this approach. They can be charged with "DELIBERATLY SLANDERING BY FALSE ACCUSATION". A thesaurus offers many alternate terms under this subject. In a court of law, a polygraph operator would have to prove his accusation that his subject was a liar. I would think any jury would favor the testee if the polygrapher could not prove his accusation because it destroyed the testee's chosen employment opportunities and his integrity was compromised. I will not get into the federal statute under which the lawsuit can be brought because they are extensive. This has to be done in federal court and any federal lawyer "should" know them. Forget a judge's decision because they will rule for the government most of the time regardless of the evidence or lack of.

Twoblock - You may be on to something here.  I sure wish some smart attorney would try that approach.  If they could win a case like that, it would go a long way towards putting a stop to the insanity of claiming the polygraph is capable of "lie detection".  I would love to see this insidious industry completely destroyed.  I helped destroy much of it with the passage of the EPPA, but they still continue to ruin the lives of millions of people.  It's way past time to put a stop to this BULLSHIT!   >:(

Doug,

I have posted this, on this type of info, on this site starting years ago. I tried, in vain, to get someone who had failed their poly to file a federal complaint. I even offered to help with their brief if they wanted to file pro se. No takers. However, now that crook Holder is A.G., these cases must be argued before a federal jury. NOT A FEDERAL JUDGE. Not being a BAR lawyer, I cannot argue a case. If I could, I would win one of these. I have won ADA - Sec. 504 Rehab. Act lawsuits (my specialty) before and wasn't able to argue the case. All these things require is: KNOWLEDGE AND GUTS.

I'm surprised that Mark Zaid didn't pick up on my posts. However, lawyers don't think they need advice. He lost.

I might add that I have studied federal law for almost 20 years. This includes every statute from the 1st. through the 14th. amendment.

I need to get this off my chest, so here it goes.

I took the Border Patrol written test in 2010 and passed. I didn't hear anything from them until Nov 2012. I flew to El Paso for the Oral boards, and passed. The next phase was the medical, in which i'm still beating myself up about.  leading up to this, all I heard from people was "you have to be totally honest about everything." so on the medical forms, it asks about medication taken in the past.  I was prescribed Ritalin a few years back after my Father died after I turned down anti-depressants. it was a tough time for me but I stopped taking it because it wasn't doing anything for me.  I was simply thinking of Medicine that was still in my house and I listed the Ritalin. I then received a letter from the Medical devision demanding that I send a letter from my Doctor clearing me for the position which I sent them. The next demand from them, was for me to pay $1,500 to take a special Police Psych exam and submit that to them. This whole thing was starting to get blown out of proportion.   I took the exam and received a "fit for duty" status. After submitting that to the med division, I received a letter stating that they "don't think it would be safe for me to become an agent." I am devastated and I can't seem to get over it. I was so close to getting my dream job and these people think I'm crazy.  I't bothers me that these guy's can play God and ruin your life.  I'm trying to figure out some sort of recourse.  Any advice would be helpful>

OMG It's as if I wrote the original post. This was EXACTLY my experience. the same change in personality, the same question I failed on the same!! So strange to read as if I had written it Odd!!

This also happened to me it's  bullshiit  :-* :P

This post has been edited to delete an apparently unintentionally attached file. -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator

U.S. Customs and Border Protection                                          7-1-2015
FOIA Appeals, Policy and Litigation Branch
90 K Street, NE, 10th Floor
Washington, DC 20229-1177
To: Whom may concern:                                                            This is an appeal for administrative closure of FOIA request CBP-2015-032950
     I have written a two part description for this appeal one is for the way I was treated and this one will be on the final results you guys rated me after I already wrote the first part. I was disqualified from continuing with the process of becoming a Border Patrol Agent because I did not pass your polygraph. If I did not pass your polygraph why did the examiner keep me there longer than it was needed as if I were a criminal and being interrogated?  I told her the truth and the examiner insisted that I, “Tell the truth so we can move with your process. Let me help you, don’t you want to be a Border Patrol Agent?” I then replied “I took the test four times. Doesn’t that show I really want to be a Border Patrol Agent?” She was very manipulative. Is that what you guys stand for a manipulative agency? If I failed then I failed do no waste any more time than it has.  I have told the examiner 100% of the truth and personal stories that I have not shared with anyone else. I have complied with everything you all asked of me so who are you guys to say I am not qualified for your job? I served this country and didn’t need a ridiculous polygraph to allow me to do so. I was a Marine for 9 ½ year and I’m currently in the Air Force.
The results I received advised me that I failed because I revealed that I smoked weed once in high school which was around more than 10 years ago.  I’ve already disclosed that information on the first part of the application process and also on the e-qip. I should also add that I have disclosed that in my military records and every other job that I have worked and applied for in the past. I have improved my life in those 10 years and not touched a single illegal drug because I’ve joined the military, had other jobs and received my Bachelors’ in Criminal Justice. It would be pointless to obtain that kind of degree while living a life of crime. You guys invited me to take your written exam because I was qualified according to the requirements that was stated in the announcement but disqualify me on something that shouldn’t have disqualified me in the first place.  I feel like I’ve been slapped by my own government after risking my life in overseas. The U.S government is discriminating against veterans with this polygraph process. There is no need for me to tell your polygraph examiner about how horrible my life was as a kid. I don’t know what you guys are going to do with my case but I hope it can get fixed soon. Your polygraph system was malfunctioning that day and I was told by three different agents about it. The polygraph is not even accurate and it cannot even be used in court due to not being 100% accurate so it shouldn’t be used for pre-employment especially at the U.S government level. With all my respect I really hope you guys can fix this issue.
Very Respectfully,

---

here it is

---

I had the same experience and I can relate. However I did not spend thousands of dollar but I spent a few hundred for travelling and hotel because I choose to do the VBT in Miamia rather than NY which was my error. I did pass all levels up until the schedule of my polygraph. I must say My exmainer did the exact same thing. I am afican american and I was qualified for GS7 so I already had a disadvantage because of my color. He greeted me and this was a caucasian examiner blue eyes bald head. We got into the room he began to start a regular convo as mentioned that I shouldnt be nervous and all these other bs about he can tell if I was cheating by usind thumb tack under my shoes, or garlic under my tongue etc. He strapped the machine on me then asked me to repeat several questions over and over for about a hour or two. Then he told me I was 98% passed and that there is 2% of information he needs to ask of me without be being connected to the machine. He started asking me was there anything else I did that I never got caught for. Mind you I already told me I was arrested 3 times one for suspended license, other for resisting to show a cop my drivers license and the other for dsorderly conduct. I then responded saying I have nothing else to tell you but I can tell he felt offended. He began to say I think you are lying about something that you did and was never arrested for such as, killing someone and burry them in my back yard, lying about smoking pot 3 times in my entire life, or aiding a family member who had entered the U.S. illegally. I told him none of those are true and he continues to tell me that I am lying about something. He started to say that he can help me If I told him the truth and referred to me as " my brother be real with me" I can help you if you just tell me. I told him again that whatever infomation you have thats everything that I did. He said we gonna sit here until you tell me the truth then he told me take a break. I came back after the 15 min break then he said you thought of soemthign on your break that you never mentioned? I responded by saying no I did not. He continued to plead with me to tell a lie on myself saying you are this close to passing and I want to pass you but I think you are disclosing information. After trying and trying to get me to agree with him he realized that I wasn't going to fall into his trap. He said you have to do this for your kids and tell the truth. I said I am doing this for my daughters by telling you that there is nothing else about me to find out. He then said this concludes the exam and the resulf is not up to me. He will forward my information back to washington and they will reply back in 2 weeks with a decision. I did receive a decision in 2 weeks but it said I failed the polygraph. Now I never felt so cheated in my life for something that I honestly worked so hard for. Because of that I contacted HR and asked if I could appeal then said there was no appeal. I took the exama again 3 year after than and passed but was unable to continue because they have it in the database that I failed the polygraph within the 3 years limit.

Twoblock wrote on Dec 30^th, 2013 at 7:09pm:

Doug, I have posted this, on this type of info, on this site starting years ago. I tried, in vain, to get someone who had failed their poly to file a federal complaint. I even offered to help with their brief if they wanted to file pro se. No takers. However, now that crook Holder is A.G., these cases must be argued before a federal jury. NOT A FEDERAL JUDGE. Not being a BAR lawyer, I cannot argue a case. If I could, I would win one of these. I have won ADA - Sec. 504 Rehab. Act lawsuits (my specialty) before and wasn't able to argue the case. All these things require is: KNOWLEDGE AND GUTS. I'm surprised that Mark Zaid didn't pick up on my posts. However, lawyers don't think they need advice. He lost.

I really do wish that some attorney would come by this website and for once, do the right thing. 
Thank you for your  Due-diligence and to everyone here trying to help. 

I've been reading here for years, and yet, to date, nothing in the U.S. has been done, and lives are literally being ruined due to this outrageous and illegal process being used. 

  It's amazing how many of us share the same experiences.  I am 28 yrs old, served proudly as a Marine and also failed my polygraph exam with Boder Patrol.  I honestly could not sleep for a week maybe a month thinking of how much of a failure I was.  I remember going into the polygraph exam office, greeting the agent who administered the exam, he was so friendly at first but after my first test, he started to get angry, calling me a liar.  The question i failed and till this day i don't know why is if i ever used or abused any type of illegal drugs? I honestly answered NO but somehow I was lying.  It was so hard for me to accept failing for something I did not do.  Before my BPA experience i was the type of person who believed in doing the right thing even when you thought noone was watching you.  Kept a good clean driving record, avoided any type of trouble, and was always making my self competitive and a good candidate for any law enforcement branch.  Got myself some good experiences while in the marines and i was ready and motivated to further my career and commitment to this country.  Like most of you i passed everything with no problem at all but the polygraph.  Made everything i worked for useless. 

George W. Maschke,
I had a similar experience with CBP. I applied for the CBPO position on both the 2012 and 2013 job announcements. I am a disabled veteran as well. I passed every portion including the Polygraph in 2012 and tripled the standard during their fitness test but my process was stalled due to an erroneous entry in my VA Medical Records and a request for my full Military Discharge records with Reason for Decision. I requested the my full record which at the time was in another state and was brought to the Newark VA Regional Office. CBP gave me 10 business days but the records took over 8 weeks. So even with an extension the records were received out of time and my offer was retracted which I accepted. I reapplied within less than a month for the 2013 Announcement so the items that I previously passed were still valid. The Medical records were brought up again but this time I had my full record available. I went to the VA for a referral for a Family Counselor for me and my wife for the loss of two children (Grief Counseling). During this application process I was asked to undergo multiple evaluations at my own expense one of which was an Orthopedic evaluation for something in my Service Connected record. That Doctor reviewed my medical records during the evaluation, saw the referral request for a Family Counselor and in his evaluation report he stated "Patient has a History of PTSD"! I have never had PTSD, was never Hospitalized nor Medicated for that or any Mental Health issue in my entire life. I was then subjected to 5 or 6 Mental Health evaluations even though the referring Mental Health practitioner stated that the Patient has never had PTSD, the Orthopedic Doctor (who is not a mental health practitioner and in no place to make that determination) officially corrected my VA Medical record to reflect the same, wrote a letter of apology for the grievous error and his Section Chief personally gave me an updated Orthopedic evaluation to no avail. CBP continued to insist I had PTSD even though they had my Full Ser4vice Record and evidence to the contrary. I filed and EEOC complaint Pro Se for Violations of both USSERA and the Vietnam Era Veteran's Act (Discrimination Against a Disabled Veteran and Discrimination for a "Perceived Disability") which is presently before an Administrative Federal Judge. I applied for the 2014 Job Announcement and was asked for an outside evaluation again but this time along with the Referring VA Doctor's records I paid $600 for a Psychological Evaluation by an Agency that does Psych-Evals for all levels of Law Enforcement. I received a PASS on that evaluation and the Medical was no longer an issue. At the same time I applied for a job with Immigration and Customs Enforcement and received a tentative offer. During this process I was subjected to 4 Polygraph examinations at the Newark Office and was told that there was something wrong with each exam. next I was asked to go up to JFK Airport for a Final Exam with John Gordon and received a FAIL on the same Polygraph that I passed a little over a year before so they retracted their offer. Now at the Pre-Trial Conference with the Administrative Judge CBP's Attorney tried to introduce the information of the failed 2014 Polygraph (even though I previously passed the same exam Administered by Mr. Gordon). The Judge denied their request stating that 2014 application process has no bearing on the case and or complaint of Discrimination. I have shared both similar and different circumstances as did Username "11x-RANGER". The Attorney requested Formal Mediation to settle the complaint. I went to Mediation in an effort to settle this matter. All I wanted originally was to get past this obstacle and be placed in the next academy class but since I have a final Offer from DHS/ICE the job was no longer an issue. At Mediation made an insulting offer for their multiple counts of Discrimination which the Attorney stated was for my "INCONVENIENCE"! I rejected their offer and they spent the rest of the day sabotaging the Mediation. Now I have no choice but to go before the Administrative Judge for a fair remedy. CBP is banking on the fact that due to my ignorance of EEOC Law and Procedure they may be able to win the case. I won't drop the case because if the Judge rules in my favor, it will set Legal Precedence and will help other Veterans that become victims of discrimination. The whole point is even if I had PTSD, which I do not, it is not a disqualifying condition of employment. I personally know several Law Enforcement Officers that work for ICE (which is a sister Agency of CBP and both under DHS) that are service connected for PTSD, Operation Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom War Veterans and it does not affect their job. I, on the other hand, do not have the condition, was erroneously labeled as having PTSD and denied employment due to Discrimination of my Service Connected Disability.      

wrote on May 16^th, 2016 at 4:50pm:

I had a similar experience with CBP. I applied for the CBPO position on both the 2012 and 2013 job announcements... I have never had PTSD, was never Hospitalized nor Medicated for that or any Mental Health issue in my entire life... CBP continued to insist I had PTSD even though they had my Full Service Record and evidence to the contrary... I... was erroneously labeled as having PTSD and denied employment due to Discrimination of my Service Connected Disability.

Whew! It sounds like DHS is trying to give you PTSD.

I received notification a few days ago regarding a failed polygraph from CPB too.  My experience is very similar to many of yours.  I'm a Veteran in my early 30's, I've held a TS/SCI since 2007, I have 10 years of HUMINT experience, I currently serve in a reserve component, and I previously worked as a Police Officer.  The military no longer uses a polygraph as part of the TS/SCI process, probably because there is no reason to do so.  I was administered a polygraph test during pre-employment screening when I was a police officer and passed that test with no issues. 
I have never been comfortable with the polygraph process.  I am familiar with the test due to my HUMINT and law enforcement backgrounds.  I feel like I’m being treated like a terrorist or criminal when if I’m being given the test.  I was given the test by a polygrapher in west Texas named Keith Kyle.  I was immediately uncomfortable talking to him.  He is an older, white male, with a bald head, and serial killer blue eyes.  To do not feel at ease when people like him try to act buddy-buddy with me, I do not know him, he is not my friend, and is not there to help me; he is there to earn a nice day of GS-14 pay which he will get no matter how my day goes.  I do not appreciate when people run approaches on me.  His personal stories he told to try to relate to me to try to illicit information were not believable, and I was in interested in hearing them.
Many of his questions he asked before hooking me up to the machine were not appropriate, and caused a lot of anxiety during test.  None of these involved anything that would make me unsuitable.  He asked if I had been raped or sexually assaulted.  I have been on two occasions, but I said no because both were situations that were “grey areas” and I did not want to discuss this with the creepy looking middle, aged male polygrapher.  It’s not the age or gender, it’s the polygrapher part, it’s not his job to try to get female applicants to discuss being victims of sexual assault.  These awkward questions caused me to think about the incident sporadically throughout the test.   He also discussed my family life, my parents disowned me about 10 years ago, which was hurtful, and not something I should have got questioned about in depth since this is not his job.  He also had no place digging when I said I don’t have children, my e-quip says I don’t have children, he does not need to dig on why, I’m unmarried and over 30, that ship has sailed and it’s not by choice.  I was upset prior to being hooked up due to being forced to discuss irrelevant personal and relationship issues. 
During the actual test, I was truthful and not hiding anything.  I had trouble sitting still for a few reasons; I use mentholated foot powder due to athlete’s foot so my feet were tingling, the padded office chair forced me to sit in an unnatural leaning back position, and the polygrapher used a large blood pressure cuff on my forearm causing lot of discomfort.  The large blood pressure cuff was probably not meant for my forearm, I am fairly petit and it is meant for the upper arm of someone larger.  My hand and wrist were tomato red and swollen the whole time, and the next day my whole forearm was covered in small bruises.  I found that due to the discomfort of the devices my body would not allow me to breath in a natural rhythm when I was hooked up.  This is a fairly common response to pain or discomfort.  He continuously harped on me to breathe normally during the test, but I couldn’t, telling someone to breath naturally seems like an oxymoron.  Later in the test he decided use “silent answers,” this concerned me because I worried that he could not tell how I was answering the questions.  The process took almost 8 hours, which was the worst 8 hours I’ve experienced in a very long time. 
The polygrapher determined that I had committed some sort of serious crime and was lying about it.  I have never committed any serious crime and could not recall any non-serious crimes I had committed either.  During the test I answered honestly, but found myself scraping my mind for any occurrence that would relate to the scenario I was asked about.  I’m the type of person who when asked the control question “are the lights on” I looked up to see if there were one or two bulbs illuminated since lights was plural in the question.  He also accused me of “using something to help myself with the test, but it didn’t work.”  I assume he was referring to countermeasures, I was not familiar with any prior to the test, I did not research any because I did not think I needed to since I have not issues with the poly in the past.  I was very anxious leading up to the test because CBP was really my “plan C.”  It is not an ideal position for me, but I did not pass the FBI’s PT test and have to wait at least a year to retake it, and I passed up the hiring process for my local police department since I was going through the FBI’s process.  I’m not sure if I should even retake the FBI PT test and continue with that process since it will also include a polygraph.  I’m looking into going back to school since my criminology B.A. is worthless if I can’t pass polygraphs. 

Is there anything I can do about this?

dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

Is there anything I can do about this?

Let's see:  you blamed your failure on:

the examiner because he's bald, has killer eyes, and was trying to establish rapport with you.
You blamed the big bad uncomfortable chair.
You blamed your stinky smelly feet.
You blamed the blood pressure cuff.

Yeah, you can stop whining like a sniveling toad. 

Of course no one except your doctor has any right to dig into seriously personal issues like being the victim of sexual assault, being disowned by your parents, missing out on having children, and so forth. The examiner asked those questions solely to establish his right to do so. The same thing goes for his forcing you to endure his lame war stories, using the most painful pressure cuff he could find, putting you in a stress position in the chair, and all the other dominant macho bullshit.

The idea is to drive you into a mental state where you understand that there no civilized limits on the examiner's behavior, but you nevertheless must gain his good opinion of you. When a polygraph examination pretest interview works as planned, you end up believing you must placate a madman. It sounds like your interviewer was successful.

The effect of this is that when he pretended to determine "that I had committed some sort of serious crime and was lying about it", you


dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

found myself scraping my mind for any occurrence that would relate to the scenario I was asked about.

NEVER NEVER DO THIS DURING A POLY EXAM. This is one of the things that causes the traces to appear different from the rest of the chart during relevant questions. If I asked you the same question, say, over lunch, would you scrape your mind? Of course not; you'd tell me to bugger off. But you let Keith Kyle (If that is his name) occupy your head.


dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

Is there anything I can do about this?

It's too late for the test you just took, but if you need to take a poly exam in the future, you should study the subject thoroughly. Read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf and train yourself to ignore the attitude and desires of the examiner.

Remember: the polygraph machine does not know whether you are honest. The examiner does not know whether you are honest. The idiot hiring managers who are relying on the test do not know whether you are honest. Other agencies who may get hold of the test results do not know whether you are honest. There is only one person in the entire world who knows whether you are honest during a poly exam, and that is you. Never let anybody tell you different.

-Aunty.

Aunty Agony wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 8:22pm:

When a polygraph examination pretest interview works as planned, you end up believing you must placate a madman.

Words of wisdom, Aunty.

To the best of my knowledge, CBP polygraph operators do not use assumed names. An Internet search for Keith+Kyle+CBP+polygraph turned up this profile on LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith-r-kyle-2277a894

I've attached his portrait.

---

Aunty Agony wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 8:22pm:

Keith Kyle (If that is his name)

I know I shouldn't have said this, as Mr. Kyle is not present to defend himself, and in any case is not responsible for the name his parents gave him. But the poor man sounds so much like a villain from a DC comic book that I couldn't help myself.

I'm afraid his portrait only reinforces my impression. I can imagine being interrogated by him and sitting there thinking, "Things look scary at present but surely Batman will rescue me any minute now."

-Aunty.

dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:07pm:

I do not know him, he is not my friend, and is not there to help me; he is there to earn a nice day of GS-14 pay which he will get no matter how my day goes.

So if a polygrapher at CBP is GS-14, then are polygraphers at Langley in the GS-16 range?

In my experience, Agency pay tends to start at TWO FULL "GS" GRADES above work at more "open" federal agencies, for individuals with similar levels of education and performing similar types of work :-?.

Hello everyone, I’m just trying to find some information. What could about this (We have been notified by the Office of Internal Affairs that you did not complete a favorable polygraph examination; therefore, your tentative offer of employment is being withdrawn.) Can I reply and if so, when? Could I appeal this...

Franki41 wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

Hello everyone, I’m just trying to find some information. What could about this (We have been notified by the Office of Internal Affairs that you did not complete a favorable polygraph examination; therefore, your tentative offer of employment is being withdrawn.) Can I reply and if so, when? Could I appeal this...

There is no meaningful appeal process for those who fail the CBP polygraph. However, you can and should write a reply to the person who sent the rejection letter contesting the polygrapher's accusation of deception (assuming that is, that you were truthful and were falsely accused). This letter should be added to your file and will document the fact that you disputed the outcome of the polygraph.

With respect to reapplying with CBP, I don't know the answer to that. If you can find out, could you post the answer here? I don't know whether CBP will in practice hire anyone who in the past has failed a CBP pre-employment polygraph "test."

Franki41 wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

Hello everyone, I’m just trying to find some information. What could about this (We have been notified by the Office of Internal Affairs that you did not complete a favorable polygraph examination; therefore, your tentative offer of employment is being withdrawn.) Can I reply and if so, when? Could I appeal this...

Frankly, I'm surprised that they would even provide the fact of an "unsatisfactory" polygraph as the specific reason for not hiring you.   Many agencies simply don't/won't provide an applicant that level of detail about the reasons behind their decision.  :-/

Is there any active class action lawsuits going on??? My husband just "failed" poly over total BS so we're doing everything the DQ letter says we "may" do such as FOIA and re-apply and all that but, it stuns me how his description of his experience is identical to so many of the failed poly posts here, it's like Vets are being targeted and it's a shame.

Try contacting Senator Jeff Flake (R-AZ); he has expressed concern over the pre-employment polygraph for the CBP, and the unusually high number of failures for vets.

https://www.flake.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact-jeff

wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 6:14pm:

Is there any active class action lawsuits going on??? My husband just "failed" poly over total BS so we're doing everything the DQ letter says we "may" do such as FOIA and re-apply and all that but, it stuns me how his description of his experience is identical to so many of the failed poly posts here, it's like Vets are being targeted and it's a shame.

Was he also at CBP ? :-/

quickfix wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 7:00pm:

dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21st, 2016 at 8:07pm: Is there anything I can do about this? Let's see:  you blamed your failure on: the examiner because he's bald, has killer eyes, and was trying to establish rapport with you. You blamed the big bad uncomfortable chair. You blamed your stinky smelly feet. You blamed the blood pressure cuff. Yeah, you can stop whining like a sniveling toad.

With quick fixes like you in Langley, no wonder we have so many Aldrich Ames's, Ed Howard's, and all the other "upstanding" Agency employees who were able to trade their access to classified information for a little extra "spending cash" ! ;D

quickfix wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 7:00pm:

dysFUNCTIONALvet wrote on May 21st, 2016 at 8:07pm: Is there anything I can do about this? Let's see:  you blamed your failure on: the examiner because he's bald, has killer eyes, and was trying to establish rapport with you. You blamed the big bad uncomfortable chair. You blamed your stinky smelly feet. You blamed the blood pressure cuff. Yeah, you can stop whining like a sniveling toad.

With quick fixes like you in Langley, no wonder we have so many Aldrich Ames's, Ed Howard's, and all the other "upstanding" Agency employees who were able to trade their access to classified information for a little extra "spending cash" ! ;D
George W. Maschke wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 9:07pm:

Aunty Agony wrote on May 22nd, 2016 at 8:22pm: When a polygraph examination pretest interview works as planned, you end up believing you must placate a madman. Words of wisdom, Aunty. To the best of my knowledge, CBP polygraph operators do not use assumed names. An Internet search for Keith+Kyle+CBP+polygraph turned up this profile on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith-r-kyle-2277a894 I've attached his portrait.

u
Thanks for your efforts, George!

Naming names and posting photos is our only hope for embarrassing polygraph operators and exposing the truth about their vile brand of alchemy! :o

First I am a Border Patrol Supervisor, Civil Servant for 30 years.  Now here is my story.  My son, 22 years old, who is so squeaking clean, raised on a military base, altar boy, CCD teacher, Imperial Beach Junior life guard for 5 years, never in trouble.  Never did drugs.  Not because he is my son but because it is true.  We live in the country so it isn't something he was even tempted to do.  Currently holds #1 plate in 250cc desert racing.  Racing since he was 3 years old.  Poor kid.  Anyway, he passed everything with flying color, interview, everything.  Failed his polygraph.   Everyone in the desert racing community, college, in total shock.  If "T" couldn't pass it, who could?"   During the interview, the interviewer after being strapped into the chair, the interviewer started verbally attacking him after he said he had never did drugs.  Never tempted.  Got into his face and accused him of lying.  The constant "I don't believe you".  "Someone your age did drugs".  "What did you do when they offered it to you".  Almost spitting when he spoke, anger.  Accusatory.  On an on for almost 2 hours, one 15 minute break in the middle.  At the end it was, "you failed, I don't believe you".  My son called me from the parking lot, almost in tears because this guy ripped him a new butt hole.  I have never heard tears in my sons voice not even when he ate shit on the bike.  Here he was so proud to get where he was and so ready for the polygraph only to be ripped to shreds.  In fact, he said when the lady was looking for his paper work for him to sign out.  All he saw on all the papers for the others that were there that day was "fail".  It isn't right and there should be a class action because the guys doing the polygraph are verbal abusers.  If the polygraph cannot be used in court and a pass or fail, it shouldn't be used as the pass or fail in hiring.  It should be used as back up to the background investigation.  Not all or nothing.  I asked how we could fight it.  I was told by my chain, you could ask under a FOIA for the transcript and video but they will not change the decision.  Best for him to reapply and go through the process all over again.  No wonder we cannot recruit.  The polygraph is so subjective based only on an opinion of someone who I swear gets paid by the number of people he/she fails.   Sad but true. >:(

DJH,

Thank you for sharing this. I very much regret your son's experience. It's an all-too-common one: CBP has a pre-employment polygraph failure rate on the order of 70%, and it's clear that many truthful, well-qualified applicants like your son are being falsely branded as liars and blacklisted from CBP employment.

Your son will want to contest the polygrapher's false accusation of deception in writing. His letter will confirm that he didn't, through silence, tacitly accept the outcome.

I don't agree with you that the polygraph should be used as a backup to the background investigation. It's junk science and it shouldn't be used at all.

You and your son will find our free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, of interest. It exposes the trickery (not science) on which polygraphy depends and documents the sorts of harm that misplaced reliance on this pseudoscience is causing to national security, public safety, and individuals. It also provides tips for mitigating the risk of a false positive outcome.

If you'd like to discuss your son's situation or polygraph matters more generally, please feel free to contact me.

DJH, speaking as a full member of the American Polygraph Association, I think it's safe to say that your kid was fatally unprepared.

I wish I was at back my old TDY hooch on the strand so we could meet at the Tin Fish, or maybe McP's.

As a father (and grandfather) myself, I'd be happy to give you and your son the full brief on pre-employment polygraph "testing."

Franki41 wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

Hello everyone, I’m just trying to find some information. What could about this (We have been notified by the Office of Internal Affairs that you did not complete a favorable polygraph examination; therefore, your tentative offer of employment is being withdrawn.) Can I reply and if so, when? Could I appeal this...

I'm sure that you could appeal.  I'm equally certain that it would be wasted time and effort on your part. ::)

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

he said when the lady was looking for his paper work for him to sign out.  All he saw on all the papers for the others that were there that day was "fail".

Obviously the CBP had reached its hiring quota for the period and was rejecting all further applicants for its own administrative convenience.

The Constitution of the United States of America does not protect its citizens against this particular form of abuse, although obviously it should. A new Bill of Rights would require ratification by 2/3 of the states but maybe it's time to start thinking about it.

The polygrapher I dealt with at the CIA had a similar approach.  He kept asking me if I was "serious" about wanting to work there.
Next, an individual identifying himself as a supervisory polygrapher "assured" me that many applicants turn out not to be "serious" about wanting to be employed there, and that there was nothing shameful if that was also the case with me.   >:(

wrote on Apr 18^th, 2016 at 5:14pm:

then he told me take a break. I came back after the 15 min break then he said you thought of soemthign on your break that you

Exactly the same stunt was pulled on me at the CIA.  The examiner kept complaining about my responses, and then sent me on a lunch break.  When I returned, he asked me if I had "remembered" anything new. :-[

How long take for get a answer in your polygraph exam for the CBP?

wrote on Feb 10^th, 2017 at 4:45am:

How long take for get a answer in your polygraph exam for the CBP?

I never applied to the CBP.  My rejection from NSA came about 2 mos. after my "interview" there.

From the CIA, it took under a month from the time of my "interviews". ::)

You are a crappity smacking kiss ass who like when a veteran get screwed. YOUR MOTHER SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ABORTION.....

So i just got a email from CBP saying my tenative selection for employment was withdrawn due to a unfavorible Polygraph examination. I did some research and found out that the poly test is supppse to be used conjuction with the BI for a determination and that in there policies outlined and their manual that it is not the sole determine factor. I sent a email to them saying that i will be contacting congress because their requirements goes against their policies.

wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2017 at 3:19am:

So i just got a email from CBP saying my tenative selection for employment was withdrawn due to a unfavorible Polygraph examination. I did some research and found out that the poly test is supppse to be used conjuction with the BI for a determination and that in there policies outlined and their manual that it is not the sole determine factor. I sent a email to them saying that i will be contacting congress because their requirements goes against their policies.

It is true that in order to be hired, one must pass both the polygraph and background investigation. But one can be rejected over either one, alone.

In federal agencies that impose a pre-employment polygraph screening requirement, it is common for applicants to be rejected based on polygraph results alone.

The best solution would be for Congress to amend the Employee Polygraph Protection Act to close the government loopholes. We have proposed language on how to do that here:

https://antipolygraph.org/ceppa.shtml

George W. Maschke wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2017 at 1:50pm:

It is true that in order to be hired, one must pass both the polygraph and background investigation. But one can be rejected over either one, alone.

Correct.  As I've said numerous times on this site, the BI can be every bit as pernicious as the polygraph.

Certainly that was the case for me.  It was a great lesson for me in just how nasty people can be when they believe that they can hide under the cloak of anonymity.  One alcoholic sociopath who participated in my BI didn't even want anonymity! 

Following any rejection from any federal employment involving the almighty security clearance, always make a FOIA/PA request to the agency that ultimately declined the employment application.  Many applicants will be in for some very ugly surprises, as once was I. :o ::)

I took a CBP polygraph a few weeks ago and walked out on it. All of the research I did predicted exactly what would happen, right down to the "calibration" questions and procedures. After the examiner attempted to get me to go over the same line of questioning a third time (claiming first that i was moving too much, then that my "mind was racing, and must be hiding something from her) while becoming increasingly hostile and accusatory, I ended the exam because I saw exactly where it was going and have no regrets about it.

I recently had a similar experience like most of you all on this page. When I entered the room, the exam proctor acted friendly by asking questions about my family, my college experiences, my hobbies, and my consideration of CBP as a career. When the actual exam started, the proctor switched almost instantly to an annoyed and irritated mood. Once I was called back into the exam room, the proctor began accusing me of using deception during the test since I disclosed at the beginning that I had difficulty with the serious crime question on previous polygraph tests. I told the proctor that I had no intention of causing deception during the exam and that perhaps I was nervous when that question was coming as I had difficulty with it in the past, but apparently that wasn't even a consideration for the proctor. Mind you, I have NEVER committed any serious crime in my life, NEVER done drugs, and NEVER committed alcohol offenses. What tipped me over the edge of reason was when the proctor insulted my honor by bringing up matters personal to me, and I respectfully asked that I withdraw from the employment process as I will NOT give my service to an agency that cares so little for the personal values of those who have given up time and money to serve their country. I am not offended by many things, but the lack of professional mannerism as the proctor interrogated me was appalling and NEVER in my life will I apply for CBP nor will I ever tell anyone to apply for them. All they do is waste your time by thinking that you're doing everything right only to be told you're completely wrong in the end. Spend your resources with an agency that actually cares about those who go out of their way to be a part of something bigger than themselves.

Clybourn wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2017 at 2:36pm:

I ended the exam because I saw exactly where it was going and have no regrets about it.

Congratulations!  What you did took "cajones", and I admire you for it.

wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2017 at 5:20am:

Spend your resources with an agency that actually cares about those who go out of their way to be a part of something bigger than themselves.

Excellent advice!  I would go one step further and suggest that any employer who relies on polygraph results is not worth seeking a career with!

I started this post 5 years ago, here is my 5 year update.

I am now serving as a Police Officer in NYC. Finished my Masters Degree in National Security and Diplomacy from a  top college.

I've been getting calls here and there from people across the country with very similar experiences and i feel really sorry for them but life moves on, as long as you stay persistent and set goals  you will eventually get into a good LE job.
I read my post and it brought back a lot of memories, i don't think ill ever be able to forgive that Polygraph examiner, Larry Gordon, as he stripped away something i wanted very badly for no good reason.
I actually recently re-applied to CBP I will continue to update on the application process. Thank you all for contributing to this post and sharing your stories, i know hearing " you failed " is a tough pill to swallow when you know that you are a good person and candidate. The government sends us off to combat and when we return home they tell us we can't work a mediocre LEO job.

Thanks for sharing with us 11x-RANGER.

Good things happen to good people.

Remember, there's a special place in hell for polygraphers and the officials that support this fraud. Judging someone as untrustworthy based solely on the "results" is an individual rights violation - except for when the government does it.

Wtf?

#stoppolygraphabuse