OK - here's the long story....

Monday morning a meeting was held at work stating that all of us that had access to money that was stolen would be taking a polygraph either Tuesday or Wednesday, except for one person who was out for medical reasons and would be tested at a later date.  We were also told that the polygrapher is the company that did David Vitter's prostitutes exam.  So being the curious George I am I looked it up and found that to be Edward Gelb of Intercept, Inc. (who appears to work alone).  Along with my search I also found that the EPPA laws were not being followed - AT ALL!  

So I go to take my first of a three segment exam (each lasting less than 3-5 minutes).  And I'm handed a two-page form turned to the 2nd page and asked to sign.  When asked for time to read it I was told that it was just the standard release form.  I informed the examiner that I was not comfortable signing the release form since the correct procedures had not been followed, and that I had stumbled upon the EPPA guidelines on the internet (since they aren't posted anywhere in the building where I work) and was aware that I was not given any written notice prior to the exam.  She stated that if I was going to take the exam then I needed to sign the release.  I asked for a copy that I have not yet been given.

So I take the three series of short questioning (no written questions were ever presented - no pre or post interview).  I'm asked is my name **, do I live in ***, have I ever stolen from a previous employer (to which I honestly answered YES) a couple of questions regarding my involvement in the crime (I had none!!) and had I lied to anyone in authority that trusted me (again I honestly answered YES).

I report to work and the owner calls me to the office where the examiner was waiting and they explained to me that I had the highest rate of deception on the crime questions.  I found out later that the examiner had also disclosed the results to other employees and stated that I was combative before the exam started.   So I asked for  copy of the results or to at least look at them because I felt that there was only one question that I replied dishonestly to (have you ever stolen anything from employer) - my first reaction was "NO" but then all the free drinks I've poured myself an condiment cups I took for mouthwash at home came rushing back so I'm sure I bombed that one and I wanted to see what the answer to that question looked like compared to the questions that just made me nervous.  Anyway - I was told that I wouldn't be able to tell anything from the charts and a written report by the examiner would eventually be made available to me.  I then asked what company they were with because neither one of them looked much like Ed Gelb (saw pic on the net) they didn't know who that was and I said "you never worked for interecept, inc?"  She'd never heard of that either.  So I asked my employer "didn't you tell us this company was so reputable that Larry Flint hired them to do David Vitter's prostitute?"  My employer then started back tracking, saying that she never said that - she said it 10 times in front of dozens of people.  So now I'm thinking that she got some yahoo's that would do it the cheapest ($500 for first exam and $75 for each additional sounds extremely cheap) and I pissed the examiner off when I stated that I wanted read what I was signing since I already knew the laws weren't being followed.  

Also - after we all took our test we (wrongly) compared questions and the others were asked all sorts of stuff about things very pointed towards that person - the pot head was asked if they every bought or sold drugs while at work, etc. and I was only asked questions directly relating to the incident.  I feel like I was set-up some how.  I live and work in a very small, close-knit neighborhood and this is defaming my character.  I am being given the opportunity to take another test with a company that I find, but am on suspension pending that exam.  My permanent employement status will be discussed after that test.

I have not read about any of the counter-measures because I didn't need or want to try to 'cheat' but I'm freaking out!  

I am pretty sure I have a case to sue my employer because of all the EPPA rules that have been broken, and I don't want to do that, but she's put my job and my reputation in jeopardy by lying to us about who she hired and going with an unreputable company.  I would think that a 'reputable' polygrapher would have made sure the rules were followed, but they broke the rules themselves.

Comments, Advice anyone?

Indeed, based on your account, it would indeed appear that your employer has committed a multiple-count violation of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act and could be liable for substantial damages. I think at this point, rather than finding another polygrapher for a second opinion, you should be looking for a lawyer with experience in labor law. If you don't know one, Martindale's free "Lawyer Locator" service may be helpful:

http://www.martindale.com

Now regarding your polygraph "test," you should be aware that some of the questions were probable-lie "control" questions, your answers to which were secretly expected to be less than truthful. For example, the question about stealing from a previous employer was a control question. It is secretly expected that everyone is guilty of at least some minor pilferage. When you admitted to taking drinks and cups from a past employer, the polygrapher should have modified the question to something like, "Other than what you told me, have you ever stolen from a previous employer?" When you answer "no" to this modified question, your answer is still presumed to be less than truthful, and your reactions to this question would have been compared to your reactions to a corresponding relevant question about the stolen money. The question about having ever lied to a person in a position of authority who trusted you is also a probable-lie control question.

A person who reacts most strongly to the control questions passes the polygraph, while one who reacts more strongly to the relevant questions fails. This procedure is highly simplistic and has no basis in science. Moreover, it's inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly and fully one attempts to answer the control questions, and as a result feels less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to wrongly fail.

For more on polygraphy, see our free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which you can download in PDF format here:

https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

I would be interested to know the name of the polygrapher who conducted your polygraph examination, if you'd be willing to share that information. If you'd prefer not to post it publicly, you can e-mail me directly at maschke@antipolygraph.org.

I'll keep reading the book - I now wish I hadn't been so damn honest.  I truly feel this 'failed' result is because of an unqualified, perhaps even biased polygrapher.

As soon as I have the company name I'll email it to you.  Since we weren't not given anything in writing, the only thing I know is the examiner was a female named Dawn and her 'observer' was named Steve.

wrote on Dec 11^th, 2008 at 7:05am:

I'll keep reading the book - I now wish I hadn't been so damn honest.  I truly feel this 'failed' result is because of an unqualified, perhaps even biased polygrapher. As soon as I have the company name I'll email it to you.  Since we weren't not given anything in writing, the only thing I know is the examiner was a female named Dawn and her 'observer' was named Steve.

When it comes to detecting deception, you cannot single out a particular polygraph operator as being unqualified. You need to keep in mind that the field as a whole is incompetent at this task.

When things go south, the polygraph establishment loves to blame the examiner. Still, the cold hard fact is that NO polygraph examiner has demonstrated the ability to determine truth from deception at better than chance levels in a peer-reviewed study conducted under field conditions.

You failed, not because of examiner error, but because you were judged with an invalid "test."

As George said, you need to get an attorney who specializes in labor law ASAP. As you pointed out, it appears that the EPPA was severely violated in this case.

scenario: took the test and failed but innocent!!! an admitted thief passed and still has their job.  myself now unemployed.  want to know if in the state of nevada is the cvsa is admissable in court.  from what i heard it is admissable in california.  to boot i found out i was unemployed because the stand in manager informed a client in front of an employee before i had heard from hr that was no longer suspended but fired.  and to add insult to injury the big boss had covered 1/2 of the theft by writing a check and covering it.  visual tapes show that no body including me did it but the result of the test was taken over the tape.

SCREWEDINAP,

Your female examiner was Dawn Walsh from Arrow Polygraph out of Southern CA.  She belongs to a group called Polygraph Examiners of America run by a guy named John Grogan out of Los Angeles.  This guy Grogan has been in hot water a whole bunch of times along with several of his folks.  (This guy Grogan created some problems for a couple I know who went to him for a  >:(polygraph.)

George is right.  Never mind a second opinion, your employer did not follow the law and you should find a good attorney.  You may even have the opportunity to go after the examiner.  I don't know what credentials or training you need in CA to be an examiner.  From what I know, the company cannot fire you just based on the polygraph.  

I'm sorry to hear your boss lied to the employees.

To both victims

I don't know either state's laws, but i'll bet neither allows what happened to you both. I would think neither would accept anyone being fired from a job based solely on the polygraph or CVSA.  More good advice get a lawyer and sue.

Update - I still have not been given the results of my test.  Magnus, thank you for the info on the examiners.  

The day after I was suspended, I found a local polygraph examiner who is on my state's board of examiners, so I would assume this examiner would be more reputable.  When my employer contacted the new examiner and explained the situation, the examiner stated that she did not believe in re-testing (keep in mind, I'm being told this by the same employer that lied to me) and that because we weren't given proper notice of the exam that the results needed to be thrown out and we would re-test in 3 months.  I, again, asked for my test results so I could contact an examiner on my own and at least have them look at the graph results and give an opinion, but nothing yet.. So I have my job back, but with a huge cloud of suspicion over me which is causing me a great deal of stress.  Because the results were not kept confidential initially, even our customers know what's going on!  

Since I got my job back, all of the employees were also asked to sign a confidentiality agreement and back-date it to the date the test was given,  so no one is to talk about anything in conjunction with the test, or other aspects of the business for that matter.

I have left messages for two labor law attorneys in my area but neither has called me back yet.  Maybe with more details they would be more interested.  

I don't want to stay at the job because it is now too stressful, but I don't want to leave and look guilty.  I was hesitant to sue at first, but the way I see it, my employer has screwed us both.  For whatever reason she pinpointed me and had the examiner target me when I didn't even have the opportunity to commit this crime, so now she has an unknown thief working for her waiting to steal again and blame it on someone else.

hi.. you are calling the wrong people.. you need to talk to the Department of Labor..they investigate and initiate action.. if they find a violation then you can sue... based upon what you've said I see a number of violations of the EPPA  including the confidentiality agreement

gary davis

Quote:

The day after I was suspended, I found a local polygraph examiner who is on my state's board of examiners, so I would assume this examiner would be more reputable.

What good is that given the fact that polygraphy is a "bogus" science?  Would it make you feel better going to a "psychic" who is a on the your state's "Psychic Board of Examiners"?  Put another way.  If a used car sales person ripped you off, would you go to another, more reputable  :-X used car salesman to help you?

Get REAL!


Quote:

I don't want to stay at the job because it is now too stressful....

If it gets to the point where it (the false accusations levied against youy) is affecting your health, go to a doctor and make sure it is documented (every step of the way) for later use by your attorney.  If your doctor deems the ill health affects (if any) attributed to your situation with this employer, file a WORKERS COMP CLAIM.  That should be a nice scoop of vanilla ice cream on your employer's apple pie.    ;)

I'll bet you a cup of coffee your employer lied to you again.  I bet you could be re-tested, but your employer found out she messed up and is back tracking.  The couple I know who went to the Grogan lie detector, ended up going to a another individual who resolved their issue.  

Sorry to hear your employer is not up front with you.

Since i posted last the company caught the guy that had kept his job red handed stealing from exactly what had been being taken that I was suspended for.  I am still awaiting a decision on my employment but get no response anymore and they owe me for my week vacation and two bonuses i am due.

My Fiance just failed a poly test really badly and I am scared. He is much younger than I am and is from another country. SO I agreed to marry him IF he took a poly test, which I paid $500 for. The administer, Mark, came to my place, ask us why I want the test and some background info, as to why I would ask about infidelity. I was allowed to ask 5 questions (like have you kissed other girls, etc). Mark told me out of 9999, you would "have to get at least 7,000 to be considered an honest person". SADLY my guy got a score of 1,734. So he failed miserably.
My guy CRIED real tears for HOURS telling me he is innocent and this test must be wrong. He swears on his Mothers life he has been loyal etc. Is there a chance he was accused falsely? I would love your opinion

Thanks

Dottie

wrote on Aug 1^st, 2011 at 11:34pm:

My Fiance just failed a poly test really badly and I am scared. He is much younger than I am and is from another country. SO I agreed to marry him IF he took a poly test, which I paid $500 for. The administer, Mark, came to my place, ask us why I want the test and some background info, as to why I would ask about infidelity. I was allowed to ask 5 questions (like have you kissed other girls, etc). Mark told me out of 9999, you would "have to get at least 7,000 to be considered an honest person". SADLY my guy got a score of 1,734. So he failed miserably. My guy CRIED real tears for HOURS telling me he is innocent and this test must be wrong. He swears on his Mothers life he has been loyal etc. Is there a chance he was accused falsely? I would love your opinion Thanks Dottie

Dottie,

Yes, there is every chance that your fiancé was accused falsely. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis. It's a pseudoscientific fraud that actually depends on the polygraph operator lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested" about the nature of the procedure. Worse still, polygraphy has an inherent bias against truthful persons.

For more on why polygraph results are not to be relied upon, see our book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).

Regarding the harm that can be caused by misplaced reliance on polygraphy in personal relationships, see Gary Smith's statement, "How I Failed My Polygraph Exam" (PDF).

Thank you SO much George. What a relief to read your info. x :)

If you talk to a local examiner who is listed in APA or AAPP then I would suspect you would get the truth from that examiner. Polygraph examiners have ego but want the truth. They are continuoisly seeking continued education and argue among themselves for the right way. This is a profession and they are professionals. The "hacks" are everywhere. I would blame this problem on your employer and not the examiner. It's too bad you are going through this. Your employer needs to be upfront and honest with the testing because you are not guilty until proven guilty. I have given many exams and passed the examinee. I have no problem explaining they passed. I make my questions fair and I fully expect to pass each examinee at evry test. When they fail; I make no qualms about their failure. If there are problems with the exam, I dissect them to see where the problem areas are. I belive in these exams and if a polygraph examiner is truly after the truth then they also make sure they are giving the proper exam with the proper questions. You know if you are innocent. Stay strong and make sure your employer followed the EPPA laws. No one should have to go through that and have an employer lie to the employee to get a truth test. Polygraphs are about the truth. Start to finish.

Hia my name is donna im 17 years old, last year there was money taken from my nans house , there wer a few people in the house that could have done it. i was never in my nanas room where she kept her money . eventually they paid for a lie detector test to be taken of all of the familly. everyone passed and i failed ?????? i dont know why i fail maybye i was nervous but that shouldnt count?? my mam and dad 100 percent know i didnt do it . i cant stop crying at the fact my own family think i roobed my nan and granda. my dad swore to them he would provbe me innocent and hes trying to save up money so i can get another one taken but we dont have the money right now. it could take upto a year before we can get the money together . im totally in despair and i dont know what to do please help me understand when i failed. its not fair on me or my nan and granda. im really close to all my familly i feel like ann outcast. its my birthday next week and i dont even think im allowed over there . i feel so lost please help me :(:(:(:(:(

Donna,

It is not at all unusual for truthful people to wrongly fail the polygraph. You'll find statements from others who were falsely accused of deception (myself included) here:

https://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml

Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis, and the results should not be relied on for any purpose. Your family wasted its money on the lie detector, and it would be a mistake to throw good money after bad by taking yet another lie detector test.

Instead, I suggest that you educate your family about the unreliability of lie detector testing. You'll find a thorough debunking of it in our free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which you can download here:

https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

You may also wish to show them this CBS 60 Minutes investigative report on lie detector:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=110

George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 21^st, 2011 at 7:44pm:

Donna, It is not at all unusual for truthful people to wrongly fail the polygraph. You'll find statements from others who were falsely accused of deception (myself included) here: https://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis, and the results should not be relied on for any purpose. Your family wasted its money on the lie detector, and it would be a mistake to throw good money after bad by taking yet another lie detector test. Instead, I suggest that you educate your family about the unreliability of lie detector testing. You'll find a thorough debunking of it in our free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which you can download here: https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf You may also wish to show them this CBS 60 Minutes investigative report on lie detector: https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=110

Thanks for the reply i told my nan what you said and they still dont believe me ! i tryed to educate them and some familly members are open to this and others are not. is there any way that you could possibly speak to my nan and give her your perspective? i understand if you cant but i really need to get through to her mabye she might listen to you

Donna,

If your nan were to call me, I'd be happy to speak with her about polygraph matters. She can best reach me at +1 424 835 1225. If she has a computer, she can call this number free via the "call me" button on this page of my personal website. Alternatively, I can be reached via Skype or Google Talk (links in my signature block below).

george thank you so much!! ill tell her to ring you!

Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

i have failed 2x polygraph test in a jewellery compnay relating to theft and im 100% innocent

i have nevwr stolen a cent in my life

please help ..... how is this possible

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

i have failed 2x polygraph test in a jewellery compnay relating to theft and im 100% innocent i have nevwr stolen a cent in my life please help ..... how is this possible

Unfortunately this happens all too often.  Thirty years ago, I proved the polygraph, when used as a "lie detector", is a sick joke.  On this episode of CBS 60 MINUTES, three different polygraph operators called 3 different innocent, truthful people liars on a crime that never even happened!  Check it out: https://youtu.be/ziMAoHhxiYQ

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

i have failed 2x polygraph test in a jewellery compnay relating to theft and im 100% innocent i have nevwr stolen a cent in my life please help ..... how is this possible

Wesley,

As Doug pointed out, what happened to you happens to many people. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you. The problem is that polygraphy is a pseudoscientific fraud. The main polygraph techniques in use today were developed by interrogators, not scientists. In fact, the most widely used technique is the brainchild of a crackpot who thought plants can read human minds. It is quite common for truthful people to "fail" the "test," especially when they are wrongly suspected of a crime.

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2017 at 5:46pm:

i have failed 2x polygraph test in a jewellery compnay relating to theft and im 100% innocent i have nevwr stolen a cent in my life please help ..... how is this possible

Why was an employee in the private sector being polygraphed at all?

wrote on Oct 15^th, 2017 at 4:57pm:

wrote on Oct 13th, 2017 at 5:46pm: i have failed 2x polygraph test in a jewellery compnay relating to theft and im 100% innocent i have nevwr stolen a cent in my life please help ..... how is this possible Why was an employee in the private sector being polygraphed at all?

Good point.  I don't think a jewelry store can require employee to submit to polygraph.   I can tell you, however, that private sector employees can be polygraphed any time if they are required to possess a government security clearance while working on a government contract.