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Topic Summary - Displaying 7 post(s).
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Jul 1st, 2008 at 5:10pm
  Mark & Quote

First, note that without any means of independently determining ground truth, this experiment is fundamentally flawed from the outset. And as Lethe suggests, there's little reason for confidence that the teaching assistant won't make supposedly confidential status information available to his boss.

Second, note that the list of questions is not a list of relevant and control questions typically used in law enforcement pre-employment polygraph examinations. Rather, the list includes the kinds of questions commonly found in pre-polygraph questionnaires. The polygrapher may use the examinee's answers as an aid in choosing control questions to be used.

Those planning to use countermeasures need to be able to correctly categorize questions as relevant, control, or irrelevant on-the-fly when they are presented during the pre-test phase. A review of Chapters 3 & 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may be in order.

Finally, note that the technique used will not necessarily be a probable-lie control question test. Sometimes, when polygraphers are concerned about the possibility of countermeasures, they'll use the relevant/irrelevant technique (also described in Chapter 3 of TLBTLD) instead.
Posted by: Lethe
Posted on: Jun 30th, 2008 at 6:48am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Actually, I just had an idea.  Tell the teaching assistant that you're not comfortable with the setup of this exercise and that you are going to randomly select on your own what group you will be in (truthful, deceptive, CM-using) by rolling a standard 6-sided die just before your exam.  Mention that as if in passing, saying that it should improve the results.

If the guy (or gal) balks and gets agitated, you can be sure that something is afoot.  If they do this, insist on knowing why.  I'll bet you a dollar they balk.  Do it, even if you're not gonna go through with it, just to ferret out the weasels.
Posted by: Lethe
Posted on: Jun 30th, 2008 at 6:44am
  Mark & Quote
Here are some comments on these questions, though I still think this is a scam.

5.  Have you ever declared bankruptcy?      
6.  Have you ever had unsatisfactory credit?
7.  Do you have any accounts past 30 days due?

These questions are not verifiable under the circumstances.

22.  Have you ever intentionally set fire to anything?

This is an inane question.  What's he gonna do, make you feel guilty for lighting birthday candles?  I'm actually interested in how such a question will be handled and what the purpose for it is.

28.  Have you ever accepted or given any money for the act of prostitution?

Of course, this is legal in most of Nevada and in Rhode Island (under certain circumstances). 

30. Have you ever forced someone to have sex with you, (rape)?

If this is the actual question, verbatim, this is definitely a scam.  Polygraphers don't use the word "rape" in exams, it carries too much of an emotional punch, even for innocent examinees.  They would use less emotional language.
Posted by: Lethe
Posted on: Jun 30th, 2008 at 6:37am
  Mark & Quote
That test looks screwy to me.  Anyway, how are they going to tell if you've filed bankruptcy or have ever had bad credit?  Are you going to give him a copy of your credit report?  Same for your criminal record.  Is he going to pull court records and your driving record?

And what are the people who are told to lie gonna say?  "Yes, I've grown, sold, and smoked dope while looking at child porn and raping people"? 

This sounds like a total gimmick.  From what you've said, would I be correct in thinking that he's simply going to say which of the three groups (truthful, deceptive, and counter measure-using) that you are in?  If so, this is a total scam.

If he's retired from the agency you refer to, he's certainly quaffed the kook aid.  He wants you to think the polygraph is really real since most of your classmates will probably be forced to take one.  He'll have his teaching assistant tell him who is in what group or something like that (maybe the assignment process wasn't really random, could be lots of things) and will simply tell you afterwards what he already knew--what group you were in--without regard to the squiggly lines on his charts.

Fuck the test.  Tell the truth without using CM on the test and $5 says you're still accused of using CM.  $5.  This is a real offer.  I'll send it to you via paypal in the unlikely event that he actually declares you truthful.
Posted by: thebigmainer
Posted on: Jun 27th, 2008 at 7:40pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
First, how is ground truth to be established? That is, how will the truth or falsity of each student's answers be verified independently of the polygraph results? not sure but i think people on the 1st group who plan on telling the truth will just tell the truth.
the students will be randomly tested so he wont be able to figure out whose in what group. the teaching asst will be picking who goes when.
Posted by: George W. Maschke
Posted on: Jun 26th, 2008 at 12:12pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Before addressing your question list, I have a couple questions regarding your professor's challenge.

First, how is ground truth to be established? That is, how will the truth or falsity of each student's answers be verified independently of the polygraph results?

Second, you mention that you and your classmates will be polygraphed in groups. Is it the case that the professor will know which students are in the same group? For example, that Students A, B, and C are in Group 1, Students D, E, and F are in Group 2, and Students G, H, and I are in Group 3 (without his necessarily knowing what status is assigned to each group)?
Posted by: thebigmainer
Posted on: Jun 26th, 2008 at 5:00am
  Mark & Quote
Ok people I need some help. I'm a college student and work in the law enforcement field. I'm taking a college class where the professor is a retired FBI examiner and still does private exams and pre employment exams for law enforcement agencies. H e gave us a challenge in a deviant behavior class he's teaching. Beat the polygraph while he is the examiner. Basically he will administer the test to groups of students. The first group is made up of folks who believe in the poly and will just answer his questions with no lies or countermeasures, the second group will lie but use no countermeasures and my group will lie and use countermeasures. Now he doesn't know what group is doing what, the only people who know are the students and his teaching asst.

Now my group is made up of regular students and students who work in law enforcement and corrections. We have our doubts about the test. These are the questions we were given that he said are commonly asked on law enforcement pre-employment tests.
Should be noted that he said he will do the silent number test where we pick a number and he will show that the machine will tell us what we picked and the calibration questions of:

Is your name xxxxxxx? He wants us to answer truthfully
Is today xxxxxx?
Is the room blue?
Is this your first polygraph?

The regular questions are:
1.  How many jobs have you had?
2.  Have you ever been fired from a job? 
3.  Have you ever been asked to resign from a job?
4.  Have you ever quit a job to avoid being fired for any reason?
5.  Have you ever declared bankruptcy?      
6.  Have you ever had unsatisfactory credit?
7.  Do you have any accounts past 30 days due?
8.  How many citations have you received in the past year? _______  Two years?______
9.      Have you ever operated any motor vehicle while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, drove recklessly, or driven while under suspension?      
10.  Have you ever smoked marijuana?
11.  When was the first time you smoked marijuana?
12.  How many times have you smoked marijuana in the last twelve months?
13.  How many times have you smoked marijuana in your entire life?
14.  Have you ever injected, or had injected, any illegal drugs into
          your body?                                                
15.  Have you ever misused or illegally used prescription drugs?
16. Have you ever purchased marijuana or any other type of illegal or
           prescription drug not prescribed to you?      
17.  Have you ever sold marijuana or any other type of illegal or
            prescription drug?      
18.  Have you ever bought an illegal drug or a prescription drug for
            someone else?
19.  Have you ever grown, harvested, packaged, stored or transported
            any type of illegal drugs?      
20. When was the last time you used or possessed any illegal drug?
21.  Have you ever illegally started a fire?      
22.  Have you ever intentionally set fire to anything?
23.  Have you ever hunted or fished without a license?
24.  Have you ever night hunted illegally?
25.  Have you ever committed any fish and game violation(s)      
26.  Have you ever sexually fondled a child since you’ve been grown?
27.  Have you ever committed an indecent exposure or held the urge to do so?      
28.  Have you ever accepted or given any money for the act of prostitution?
29.  Have you ever given someone a drug before engaging in sex
          with them?
30. Have you ever forced someone to have sex with you, (rape)?
31.  Have you ever possessed or produced child pornography?
32.  Have you ever accessed child pornography on the Internet?
33.  Are you presently involved in any litigation: criminal or civil?
34.  Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony?
35.  Have you ever stolen any money from a place where you work(ed)?
36.  Have you ever stolen any property or merchandise form a place where you work(ed)?
37.  Have you ever been with someone when they stole something from a store?
38.  Have you, in the past five years, stolen anything from a store?      
39.  What is the most serious crime in which you were involved?____________________
40. Have you been completely truthful on your application for employment and during the entire hiring process for the agency, you are currently seeking employment with?
41. Have you accurately and truthfully answered these questions?

Now which are control and which are revelant?
Which ones are they looking for lies?
He said these will be the questions that he will make a list of 10-15 to ask which he said is common in most states like Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont (Where he tests).

Any help would be great, we are planning on using countermeasures.
If we tried to explain why we reacted to a question would it be wise to say that the questions bothers us because of bad experiences in our youth? And can the examiner use that and say that could be why he reacted to it? One of the police officers in my group suggested that.