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Perplexed,
I know for a fact that you are telling the truth because you feel exactly how I first did when I took my first polygraph back in August and was stunned that I had a reaction to the drug usage question even though I've never used drugs in my life.   It's amazing the human reaction - the one of anger and wanting to explain yourself and having a decent chance -how similar it can be...
I was very upset and did not know where to turn.  I kept having nightmares of being in prison and seeing people get beat up by cops.
But like polyfool once told me, believe me, it gets better.

Johnn wrote on Mar 6^th, 2006 at 1:58am:


Amen to that, John!... and the FBI can choose one of the two options:

1.  IMMEDIALTELY drop the polygraph because it is worthless in ACCURATELY determinng the TRUTH.

2. Invent another device that WILL be 100% accurate 100% of the time... 

This way no one who's telling the truth should EVER be afraid!!...

quickfix wrote on Mar 6^th, 2006 at 12:02am:



quickfix:

My "inexplicable emotional and physiological responses" to the relevant question had nothing to do with medical issues, recent personal issues, or inadequate sleep the previous night !!!!!....

The polygraph is NOT 100% accurate... 100% of the time!... so it should NOT be relied upon as a 100% accurate measure of deception or truth!... What part of this simple TRUTH are you not getting, my friend?

In my case, the Polygrapher, basing his erroneous judgement SOLELY on the polygraph chart,  said (and I paraphrase) that he had "no doubt in his mind" that I was LYING, DECEPTIVE and what have you!!!!... when the simple TRUTH was that I was telling the "TRUTH"...

Even though I could UNMISTAKABLY see that he actually "realized" that the polygraph was inaccurate in my case and backed off... He has NO choice but to put in his report that I failed the "worthless" polygraph examination.

On a last note... if, after my accurate and CANDID presentation, you still feel that it is... well.. no big deal... for patriotic and TRUTHFUL "folks" like me  to get shown the door... then, my friend, there is nothing further I can say to you to explain how OUTRAGEOUS, unconscionable and dangerous to our National Security, such intellectually and morally bankrupt measures are!... 

While I applaud the use of the ploygraphs as "trick investigative tools" to catch some not so bright REAL criminals, the Polygraphers should get OUT of the "mind reading" business!!!!...

quickfix wrote on Mar 5^th, 2006 at 6:02pm:


Thank you quickfix for "sympathizing"... but being highly cognizant of my "inexplicable" involuntary emotional responses (something I cannot control), I do not believe "another chance to pass the poly" will do me ANY justice... nor will it give the good FBI the "TRUTH"!... The Polygraph was TOTALLY inaccurate in my case....  What is so hard to understand?

I could not have said it better than EOSJupiter in his well thought out quotes "anything less than 100% accuracy... 100% of the time is worthless.  ONE innocent  person's name and veracity destroyed is IMMORAL.  Real scientific devices work to those standards (the 3rd decimal degree). Are you going to trust a pacemaker or dialysis machine to less than 100% reliability?"

Quickfix,

If you are such an expert , why are you afraid of taking a poly?  Because you are afraid of it producing charts which will label you a liar, correct?  I mean, supposedly, no one who's telling the truth should be afraid.  And inconclusives are probably a dime a dozen.

The fact that the FBI is too lazy to resolve cases like those of Perplexed is not even the tip of the iceberg.  The FBI pretends to have fair hiring standards by re-examining "failures" all the while having the outcome predetermined.  Don't you think that this practice is fraudulent and abusive?  

I also noticed that some (not all) FBI polygraphers get away with employing abusive tactics because they think in the "we"- like "we feel" and "we this" and "we that" - meaning not only lack of leadership and independent thought, but having the full ability to throw the stone and hide behind a powerful organization.  

Unfortunatley, the FBI is an organization which employs a great many intelligent people but at the same time prevents these individuals, or better yet molds these people not to dare and think for themselves and go beyond what's written in a book outlining the rules of a monolithic legacy system.  Their failure to think and become flexible is exactly why 9/11 happened.

Worked for both Army sides, crim and intell.  I can tell you that in virtually all situations where examinee is inconclusive (and in various cases, deceptive), a retest is appropriate.  The inconclusives are, in most cases, a result of poor examiner pretest, sloppy polygraph charts, and/or examinee being unsuitable for testing on the particular day (due to medical issues, recent personal issues, or inadequate sleep the previous night (I would never test someone coming off a midnight shift, or having had, say, 4 hours of sleep).  Unfortunately, some agencies will test regardless of suitability that day.  A retest should be conducted by a senior, expereinced examiner with a good reputation of resolving exams.  If still unresolved, a decision will be made per that agency's policy on courses of action.  I believe the FBI doesn't bother to make any serious effort to resolve an INC/DI poly in the applicant screening arena, which is why folks like "perplexed" get shown the door.  The military services on the other hand, make every effort to resolve them, since they're dealing with soldiers, sailors, airmen, etc, who already have clearances and need a favorable CSP to continue to work, vice gain employment.  I think that's why DOD poly programs take a different view than the FBI, SS, etc.  I for one would NEVER take an FBI poly (yes, you're hearing it from an examiner!!);  I have been poly'd by all the agencies I worked for, and I still get nervous when it's my turn.  I think that's why I can relate more to the examinee's point of view;  I've sat in the same chair.

I hope this answers your question;  you're hearing a forthright opinion from one who does this for a living.

Regards.

TwoBlock,

Sure send me what you need to, If I can't give you an answer, then I will take your questions to the experts at school. Two of my professors are top notch corporate attorneys. Shouldn't be a problem. 

Regards ....

------------------------------------------------------------|

Quickfix, 

With 20+ years in the Army, so which type of polygrapher (CID or MI) I would like to know ? 
Its impressive that you realize perplexed got a raw deal, and as a polygrapher, how do think these tactics and ordeals for innocent people be handled ? What is your opinion for remedies ? When it appears the major agencies have no intent on fixing it themselves.  THis website wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for the gorilla tactics used on folks wrongly accused. 

Thanks for posting a truly honest opinion.


Regards ...

EosJupitor

Defense lawyers do seem to be in short supply. It, also, seems to be the most thankless realm of lawyering. You are to be commended for picking it. Some DA's sure need an "in your face" defense lawyer. Sounds like you're gonna make a good one.

May I suggest that, in your spare time, you study Constitutional Law. To me, this is the most intriguing part of law. There is, also, a shortage of good federal lawyers. They seem to be not willing to take on the government or large corporations. 

If it's OK, I will PM you with a question.

EJ:  Thanks for the compliment;  I also have "wise-ass" in the genes;  Broxn-born and raised, and 20+ years in Uncle Sam's Army;  but I also have a healthy respect for opposing views (including both yours and George's);  Good Luck.

PS:  I really do sympathize with "perplexed";  he got a lousy deal, should have at least gotten another chance to pass his poly.  

Detector,

Being a wise ass is what I do, and too many years with the military have me jaded.  But in all seriousness, I was going to become a patent lawyer, especially with a scientific and engineering background, but I found that area to be quite boring. But after doing my lawyering  skills classes and mock court trials. I found that I really like being a defense lawyer (criminal law was the most interesting course I found). I will most likely startout doing public defender work.  And as I get a great check every month from uncle sugar, money is a secondary issue. Good defense lawyers are in short supply in most jurisdictions. And not being a young welp, wet behind the ears, lends credibility in the court room. There is alot of money to be made as a sharp defense lawyer. My plan is to be the defense lawyer that prosecutors cringe at when I enter the courtroom. Everyone deserves a thorough and professional defense. Even Polygraphers !! The opportunity just to banter and argue on this website with you PDD examiners, actually is  quite good for dissecting testimony and evidence. But you have to bring your "A" game with valid research for it to be taken seriously. Thanks for asking. 

Regards ...

EOS,

Where do you come up with your snappy replys?  I do enjoy the humor in them.  Your being a student of law I would be interested in what branch of law you will practice ?

Quickfix,

Fortunately,  you will have no say in the matter, as this fight will be done though political and court related actions. The federal lawsuit can only be stonewalled so long. The wheel of justice may be slow, but it does crush what is wrong eventually.

But I loved the detailed comeback. Facts, logic and Knowlege will always win against BS. THe heyday of the polygraph is done. Can't keep your secrets, secret anymore. Vive Le Revolution !!!! 

Regards .....

"We will have our comprehensive employment polygraph ban."

EJ:  perhaps, but not today!

quickfix wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2006 at 12:43am:


quickfix,

Using your own words, and I do detest using them, "shit-canning" is exactly the idea for the polygraph. By your own admissions & Detectors as well, the validity issues and especially where its only an opinion is the real problem. Anything short of 100% accuracy, 100 % of the time is just a parlor trick. Real scientific devices work to those standards. Are you going to trust a pacemaker or dialysis machine to less than 100%. And for those of us who are trained scientists and engineers (undergrad & Masters) I am not easily conned. You can't read our minds, and you can't beat the inner workings of folks that know deep down in there souls that its a sham. Past polygraphers have found out just that point as stim tests don't work unless you really believe. And having been in combat, I don't think you polygraphers are going to even come close to stressing me out. But I will admit I find it highly entertaining watching you try. The frustration with my type must just drive you to drink.
As far as the linguists you have to polygraph, well they are poor folks trying to work and earn money. And must endure the polygraph to reach that end. It is wrong to submit honest people to an interrogation, just so they can work, and again I say, how many spies have you caught with the polygraph. ANd if so do produce the court records and proceedings. Keep screwing people over and they end up here. With more people calling for the demise of the polygraph. Its just a matter of time and politics. The winds of change  are coming. We will have our comprehensive employment polygraph ban.

Regards ....

As I stated before, my agency tests all linguist applicants within my agency.  We have an extremely successful polygraph process, with few unresolved polys, and we don't kick them to the curb after one unresolved exam like other agencies (FBI?).  We will automatically bring them back for another opportunity to resolve the issue(s), and the resolution rate is quite high, as they are assigned to our more senior experienced examiners.  I for one understand and appreciate the importance and contribution of these native speakers to our mission.  As a quality control supervisor, I review every exam to ensure that the examinee has been afforded the fairest exam possible.  Regarding BIs, they are already done but are extremely time-consuming, and these linguists need to be deployed in short order.  When you come up with a better solution than merely "shit-canning" polygraph, let me know

detector1012000 wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2006 at 11:26am:


detector1012000,

If you have specific case numbers, court locations  then please do post them. All federal proceeding are public record. Prove your statement and research. Goes a long way on this board for credibilty. But I will give you credit your at least dealing straight with your comments about the screening process. Honesty must be respected. If you have studies that refute anything of debate then use them. I will always evaluate detailed proven research. I would be willing to say that all of the senior posters don't have a problem with legitimate valid studies arguing your side of the debate. As far as the polygraphs use, then you folks need to do your own policing against those in your profession that use the machine to prove there godly powers against meer mortals. But again anything less than 100% accuracy by a device (its really the polygrapher) is worthless.  1  persons name and veracity destroyed is wrong. 

Regards ....

quickfix:

With all due respect, I did not miss the point… I DID understand the meanings of ALL the words as well as the EXACT intent of the relevant question… That was NOT the issue!… What I did was present my candid observations as I perceived them in my good faith effort to seek an understanding of what happened…

The question WAS longer… and, contrary to what you stated, it DID make a HUGE difference for me and I got “unnecessarily” aroused… I do NOT know why!… Perhaps, I just "worry too much"... but I WAS unmistakably telling the TRUTH when I said “No!”… 

Also I was not accustomed to hearing in my every day conversation “have you ever been in contact with foreign intelligence service”…  It was, ans still is, INTIMIDATING to me... and just reading it sends chills down my spine!... am I oversensitive? fine... call me oversensitive... but I WAS telling the truth!... and THAT was what the FBI wanted to know!.... The polygrah did their search for the Truth NO justice!... 

The UNMISTAKABLE fact is that I have never been in contact with a foreign intelligence service nor do I have the intention, or desire to contact ANY foreign intelligence service.   I have NO place in my life for undue stress or negative energy!...

Also, frankly, I wouldn’t know where to begin to contact such intelligence services... and even if there was a way for me to find out (and NO!... there is NOT as I am NOT looking), what do I say?  “Hey, Mr. Igor of the KGB… I am a nobody… I have nothing to offer you… I know nothing about US intelligence or national security (nor do I want to know)… All I know about politics is what I hear on Fox News and Sean Hannity… how much would you want to pay me to be your “Pink Panther” spy”… 

I am just not a political person… I barely watch TV and when I do, I mainly watch comedies and music to maintain a stress free life… Socially, I see friends, do business and chase women!... I never bother talking politics…  and when I do, I end up defending our President’s “moral clarity”, “inspiring personal faith in Jesus” and, knowing all too well that when he took office, he had absolutely NO intention of going to war or to get involved in nation building… Yet, he IS protecting us EVERY single DAY… Not ONE terrorist attack took place on US soil since 9/11/2001 for ONE reason… Our President had the balls to take IMMEDIATE charge under exceptional circumstances and unprecedented reality.  He lead the world in a war he NEVER anticipated or even wanted... He made TOUGH “thankless and unpopular” choices with one focus in mind "Defending the U.S." the best way he knew!... Would you have loved to just "pray" and wait with Monsieur Jacques Chirac and just "hope" that the terrorists will perhaps just be "nice" to us and no longer attack us?  As Sean Hannity so masterfully put it, "the price of INACTION far exceeded the price of action!"... 

Listen… the 2 facts of which I am 100% SURE are 1. I was TELLING the TRUTH!...  2. I do not know why I reacted when he asked the relevant question.

INVOLUNTARILY, and SUBCONSIOUSLY, the moment he “started” posing the relevant question, I got “unnecessarily” aroused… as the question progressed, my anxiety cascaded… when he finished the question and I answered “No”, I was relatively calm for some odd reason… but then with the 20-30 seconds of silence, “suspense” got the best of me… then I was fearful of screwing things up involuntarily”, then.. what else?...  my right leg “twitched”.  All that took place KNOWING that I was telling the TRUTH!... So the polygraph’s “premise” that if I was telling the truth and I had nothing to hide “I will just answer the question and remain calm” is flat out WRONG!... 

That means that the Polygraph is NOT an ABSOLUTE… It is FLAWED… and it IS junk science… I can support using the polygraph as a “trick method” in investigations and I applaud those who use it effectively as an investigative tool to get a confession or catch a crime… but to blindly rely on the Polygraph results as being ABSOLUTE is harmful to our National security and beneficial ONLY to the terrorists whose ENORMOUS backlog of tapes and documents is STILL awaiting translation…  Such tapes and documents may very well hold the key to stopping the next terrorist attack on OUR soil!... That is my MAJOR concern… The Polygraph is SENSELESSLY compromising our National Security… and ignoring that fact is dangerous, bureaucratic and inept!... 

I have no doubt that there MUST have been thousands of other good, solid, decent and patriotic Americans who have unnecessarily “failed” the Polygraph examination while telling the truth…

Obviously, there is a LARGE section of the population that are, like me, “worriers”… and “emotional”… and “over analyzers”… and "over-sensitive"...  That does NOT make them liars… nor does it make them spies!!!!!....

KNOWING "ALL TOO WELL" that my country desperately NEEDED my language skills, my PR savvy, and my critical mind, it took me over 4 years to even get off my fat lazy butt and do the RIGHT thing… We are the MOST compassionate nation on the face of the earth (we went to war in Afghanistan and brought food with us)… yet we are failing the PR war so miserably…  Many all around the world still "falsely" accuse us of being the “Big Satan”!...

Such "disconnect" we have is ascribed directly to the severe shortage of "critical minds" who understand the delicate intercultural differences between us as Americans (or Westerners) and the rest of the world.  "What" we are saying is clear "We do want a peaceful world and all our boys and girls want is JUST come back home"... We are just failing at "the way" we are saying it"... and that makes us look like "the cowboys... the invaders... the imperialists... and the bad guy"... What amazes me is, to date, CNN (as well as ALL our Arab and European allies) still shamelessly refer to our troops in Iraq as "the occupation forces" instead of "liberators".  If I were in charge of our PR, I would start IN the U.S. by "explaining " every day to the Media the enormous IMPACT of every word they say on our National Security... and every day to the Democrats that "Politics MUST stop at the Atlantic". I applaud anyone in Congress who "disagrees and even blasts" the President behind closed doors... but I do NOT want to hear it... because if I can hear it, America's enemies also can hear it and, guess what, they use it EVERY day in their evil “deceptive” propaganda against us...  

It takes a LOT of guts for an Arab American to do what is right for our country!... In addition to the obvious inherent risks associated with "working for the FBI", risks ONLY Arabs understand for teh most part, we naturally much prefer to stay away from politics and enjoy the good life and good food!... Well... THAT I ALREADY have and fully enjoy!... The lousy $39 an hour and "2nd class contract employee" status with NO benefits nor pension was NO motivation for me WHATSOEVER!!!!!!...  Actually, it is iniquitous and a blatant act of ingratitude to ALL those Americans who are currently employed as Contract Linguists!... They, just like full time employees, have families to feed and deserve a secure income and job stability for the good work they do!

When I finally got the nerve (and frankly the energy)  to take the initiative and do what is RIGHT instead of being lazy and relying on OTHERS to do all the work to protect our nation... What happened? I got a slap in the face... by what?  By a dummy Polygraph!...

As to your comment that “the Bureau should stick to catching bank robbers, and leave the intell work to the intell folks”, I respect your right to express your opinion, but I totally disagree.  The FBI along with all the other good agencies ALL should share the credit for protecting our nation and keeping terrorism AWAY from our soil. So let us not be “dividers”…. Let’s give credit where credit is due… CORRECT what is obviously wrong... and let us “unite” in the face of a common barbaric evil… “Terrorism”!....

ESO,

I have the greatest sympathy for perplexed, however none for you or your cause.  Many spies have been "caught" with polygraph, some have not, they get the attention.  Abuse of Polygraph causes this, not normal use.  Also Screening applications are the least on the validity scale, they do serve a purpose.  I am sure as an attorney you will have contributions to make to the legal profession, as many polygraph examiners have contributions they can make to the profession also.  All attorneys are not on the up and up, neither are all polygraph examiners.  Don't make broad and sweeking statments, they are unbecoming of you.  You have a higher intelectual level than that.

Quickfix, retcopper, 
and any of the polygraphers who read this.

The thing that you all are missing or are refusing to answer is, Why is this abuse neccessary? Why are innocent people branded liars because of a machine that you wield like a weapon.  You skirt the issue, and dodge the main reason this website exists. Screwing people over benefits no one. And your pseudo-crap machine again is the weapon of choice to weed out folks that don't seem to fit. When this debate could all be mute, if the agencies would spend the time and money and do real BI's. But again polygraphs and examiners are cheap and timely, and provide the bureaucrats a plausible denial and defense again being inept, should another Ames happen again. Now lets not forget how many spys, have been caught with a polygraph ?  hmmmm ?    And lest we not forget that you polygraphers are the first line of defense against those who are guilty until polygraphed innocent.  Perplexed has every reason to be pissed off, because he was abused.

Regards ....

Perplexed (and George):

I didn't question your loyalty, which is why I didn't mention it.  You missed the point, which is, if you weren't accustomed to a particular word/phrase/question, etc, you should have asked the examiner to clarify the intent of the question, and/or possibly restructure or reword it accordingly.  My agency is responsible for testing all linguist applicants, and believe me, we have an enormous amount of them.  Virtually all of them tell me the same thing, which is that monet is not the reason they apply, but to contribute to the US.  I have no doubt the intell questions we ask are similar, if not identical, to those you were asked.  When I review the question with an applicant, I ask for feedback that they understand the meaning and intent of the question before I administer the exam.  Hopefully you will get another shot at it.  As for George's statement that "longer" questions may cause false positives, it doesn't hold water (no offense, George);  no two questions are identical in length or number of words in them.  There is no research that shows that one question of six words is more sensitizing than one of  five.  It is the proper pretest and explanation of the question that counts.  I believe that the Bureau should stick to catching bank robbers, and leave the intell work to the intell folks.  They just don't seem to handle the screening poly mission very well.

retcopper wrote on Feb 28^th, 2006 at 4:54pm:

You believe that 90% of Americans believe that a citizen should either mindlessly agree with every action the federal government takes or they should leave the country?  What a wonderful interpretation of the meaning of “democracy.”

“America – Love it or leave it!”  That was an asinine sentiment in the sixties and its merits as an intelligent argument have only decayed since then.

Surely you can do better than that if you disagree with the original poster.  If your point of view is different than his, can’t you come up with at least a semi-intelligent argument to counter his?

He was explaining why he feels the use of the polygraph is unfair.  Your response was to advise him to leave the country if he felt the FBI didn’t treat him fairly.  

Once again, let me thank you for contributing your worthless piece of flame-bait to the ongoing discussion on polygraphy.  

Perhaps you’d be happier if you didn’t subject yourself to reading the posts here, since they seem to whip you into a unreasoning jingoistic frenzy.

I found the following important testimony on www.fas.org which is the website for the Federation of American Scientists.

It is a testimony by Professor William G. Iacono made during the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing “Issues Surrounding the Use of Polygraphs”

What struck me was how closely it shares my own concerns, sheds some light on what might have happened in my case and draws the same conclusion: "Polygraph screening of personnel cannot be scientifically justified."

In Summary, here are the bullets:

• Oral Statement Regarding Polygraph Screening of Federal Employees and Job Applicants

• I want to thank you for having me here to testify on this matter of great importance to our country’s security. 

• Someone who is clever enough to be a spy should be clever enough to learn these simple techniques to beat a polygraph.

• Even though innocent, being asked about espionage is likely to be upsetting because your patriotism is being challenged and because your response to this question determines your future employment.

• The consequences of being physiologically aroused to a question about espionage are grave even for innocent people; that is why they would be expected to fail polygraph tests in large numbers

• This explains why large numbers of FBI applicants fail pre-employment polygraph exams even after they have been judged to satisfy most of the FBI qualifications.

• Conclusion: Personnel screening cannot be scientifically justified.

The full text of the testimony can be found at http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2001/042501_iacono.html

Perplexed,
You dont have to defend your patriotism - the fact that you applied to the position in the first place speaks volumes.  If people like retcopper fail to put two and two together, that is not anyone's fault but his own.  

quickfix wrote on Feb 28^th, 2006 at 11:46pm:



Thank you quickfix... I am both well spoken and intelligent... I live a simple, stress-free life in a quaint All-American neighborhood and surround myself with positive "good people" and keep away from negative energy.

What is TRULY odd here is that you neither saw nor mentioned that I am also highly patriotic... and I LOVE the USA.

It is unfortunate that, in your rush to judgement, you misconstrued the "delicate" distinction between "understanding the meaning of words" and "not being accustomed to hearing them"... but that's OK...  I glanced through your other posts and I can see why!... but I will treat you with respect unless you give me reasons not to.

I made my post in good faith and TOTAL ACCURACY in my conscious effort to HELP others as well as seek "reliable information" and "accurate answers" for the following reasons:

1.  While I did not believe it two weeks ago, I now KNOW beyond ANY doubt that the Polygraph is highly INACCURATE!...  It was inaccurate in my case and I can FULLY understand how it can easily be inaccurate in many other cases...

2. I do NOT need to defend my patriotism!!!...  I KNOW how highly patriotic I am and so do the people who know me!... I have NEVER been in contact with ANY foreign intelligence service, nor do I intend to... and I NEVER will do anything to harm the U.S.  I am just trying to help myself "understand" why I physiologically reacted to the relevant question.  I am NOT a psychologist nor an expert in this field... I have received many explanations from well meaning people from “you are a sensitive person”… to “you are high strung”... to “you are brilliant and your mind works at 2,000 rpm in anticipation of a question”… to what have you… The 2 pertinent facts I have now are that the Polygraph was completely INACCURATE in my case and that I do NOT know why I reacted to such questions. 

3.      I CANDIDLY described how I felt and what happened and tried to draw some initial hypotheses following the Scientific Method.

So, in view of the above, I sincerely thank those who have given me useful information and urge others to focus INTELLIGENTLY on this delicate topic and be HELPFUL to my "good faith" efforts to expand my knowledge.  It is NOT an invitation to the dogs of society to come howling and babbling senselessly... nor is it a license for anyone to knock down the USA and its fine agencies INCLUDING the FBI!... Those who have the intellectual competence to bring patriotic and constructive criticism in the best interest of our country are welcome....