Add Poll
 
Options: Text Color Split Pie
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
days and minutes. Leave it blank if you don't want to set it now.

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X
Topic Summary - Displaying 19 post(s).
Posted by: suethem
Posted on: Jul 8th, 2003 at 5:58am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
polygraph/ CVSA / Facial recognition... its all the same. Same con men, different products.
Posted by: orolan
Posted on: Jul 8th, 2003 at 1:43am
  Mark & Quote
Quote:
Once enough people realize that the product is defective and dangerous it will be recalled.
And when it is it will be replaced by this, from our friends to the North.
Quote:
The ultimate goal upon which the justice system rests -- the search for truth -- has seen any number of sciences and pseudo-sciences come into existence. Some gradually fade away into disrepute, like hair analysis. Others -- DNA is probably the best example -- revolutionize everything from murder investigations to paternity suits.
Micro-expression analysis may be part of the next wave. Pioneered by University of California professor Paul Ekman about 30 years ago, the mapping and study of facial movements was until recently treated more as a theory than a science with tangible applications.

And the purveyor of this new "science" ???
Quote:
A television director by trade, Mr. Gough saw micro-expression analysis as a process that would allow him to marry his technical know-how with an abiding interest in law enforcement.
And then we have the next-to-the-last paragraph of the article Wink
Quote:
Only one truth-finding technique is specifically prohibited during job interviews in many jurisdictions, of which Ontario is one: polygraph testing.

The whole article is quite interesting. Read it here:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030707/PFMAKI07/TP...
Posted by: guest from canada
Posted on: Jul 8th, 2003 at 1:25am
  Mark & Quote
Like you said Suethem, it is nothing more than a business.  Dollars and cents.  I would be willing to bet the farm that the only polygraph people supporting CVSA are from companies with monies and interests already divuldged into the CVSA technology.  Polygraph people against the CVSA of course would have no eggs in the CVSA basket and are just trying to save their livelyhood.  It would seem to me that the CVSA technology is much cheaper to aquire than the polygraph technology as you don't have to purchase a BP cuff, chest tubes or sweat sensors.  I see a real fight in the distance.

The only problem with your line of thinking is when you look at the uphill battle we as antipoly crusaders have had trying to educate the public into seeing the lie behind the poly.  The poly has been around since the 30's and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere within the LE community for the very reasons you posted.  However, if we take the same timeline and apply it to the voice witch doctory that has surfaced, our grandchildren might see the fruits of our labor!

Posted by: suethem
Posted on: Jul 8th, 2003 at 12:19am
  Mark & Quote
Guest from Canada,

There are polygraph people that support CVSA and there are polygraph people who do not support CVSA.

Some polygraph companies actually battle each other, saying that the others products, software and hardware are sub- standard.

If you look at the National Institute of Truth Verification Website you can read some CVSA testimonials.

Whats interesting is that in most of the cases that were 'solved' by the machine, the suspect confessed.

Just like with the polygraph, there are many people who confess to crimes because they believe that the CVSA test is valid.

But what happens to those who have nothing to confess, but are labled as liars?  They are just the price of American justice. 

In the Stephanie Crow murder case (Escondido CA), the victim's brother was subjected to a CVSA and confessed after hours of games by a police 'expert'.   The police hammered him and ignored reports of a prowler in the area.  In the end the prowler was caught and found to have the blood of the dead girl on his shirt.  The victim's brother is out of jail and the drifter/prowler is now being charged.

This is a prime example of how blind faith in any 'polygraph' is dangerous.  The police only followed up on the drifter after they were shamed into action by the community and bad press. 

In regards to scientific support- the polygraph has none.
The National Academy of Sciences shot down the polygraph as invalid and went as far as to say that it is a threat to national security.

LE/Intell  still use is because there are still people that confess.  They are addicted to the confessions and ignore the evidence that honest people are wrongly accused and the guilty people can pass using countermeasures. 

The polygraph/CVSA is just a business, like any other.  Once enough people realize that the product is defective and dangerous it will be recalled.
Posted by: guest from canada
Posted on: Jul 7th, 2003 at 11:03pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I have to laugh!  I just checked out the polygraphplace web page.  What a joke!  One interesting thing I found was a statement there that regards the voice analysis technology as not having scientific support.

"Instruments that claim to record voice stress are not polygraphs and have not been shown to have scientific support."

Hee, hee.  The anti poly people here have nothing to worry about.  Just sit back and watch the voice technology and the pro-poly sides start tearing each other apart as they both vie for dollars and a foothold in the tea leaf reading/astrology/truth detection market.

Since when did the poly GAIN scientific support???
Posted by: orolan
Posted on: Jul 7th, 2003 at 3:27am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
I keep getting this picture in my mind of Rosen trying to examine the comedian Stephen Wright. Those of you who have seen him know what I'm talking about. For those of you who haven't, he tells all of his jokes in a very "deadpan" monotone, with no facial expressions whatsoever.

Twoblock, I'll see if my daughter still has her paper on her computer.
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jul 7th, 2003 at 3:04am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Fred F

Our so called "experts" in the FBI, CIA. etc. can't even accurately identify the voices on tapes attributed to Been Layen and Hishiney so how in hell does Rosen think he can tell if people are telling a lie from tapes. Sounds like another Wonder Woman lasso to me. Tapes capture so much background distortions.

Monotone means without change of pitch or key. one tone. People who talk this way would probably drive Rosen and his people crazy. Can you imagine what a single pitch sound wave staring them in the face would do to their egos? Would they acuse the subject of using countermeasures? Probably so.
Posted by: Fred F.
Posted on: Jul 7th, 2003 at 2:05am
  Mark & Quote
Twoblock wrote on Jul 6th, 2003 at 4:40pm:
I would guess the avg. person speaks in the 6 to 8 whole note range. Some people speak in monotone. Singing range much different. For instance -  Johnny Cash has maybe 1 1/2 octave singing voice and Opera singers like Marilyn Horn and Maria Calas had maybe 3 1/2 octaves. (Some singers sing in monotone).


Twoblock,

I wonder how Mr. Rosen can claim to have such success with TAPED voices. Can a tape capture the true essence of ones voice? I am a bit skeptical of LEA Detections claim that they can get accurate "readings" from tapes. With the advent of CD's MP3's and digital recording which provide far more accurate recording than tape, Rosens claims seem a little far fetched.

In regards to monotones, are there measureable pitch variations?

Orolan,

I would concur with you on your daughters friend. Maybe you can contact LEA and ask them if 
Spasmodic Dysphonia, the Adductor variant will affect the "readings"


Fred F. Wink


Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jul 6th, 2003 at 6:08pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Orlan

I know nothing about Spasmodic Dysphonia. However, in my years of performing, I have known a couple of would be performers like your daughter's friend. Both were good when singing in their living rooms but, put them on stage, in front of an audience (stage fright stress) and every note was extremely sharp. One was able to overcome her stage fright and went on to become a good singer. The other never could overcome her affliction and chose another profession. Back then, I don't think doctors had a name for it.

My opinion is: Yes, these people would be set for failure in voice analysis tests. Stress, fear, anger etc. usually makes people's voices get a little higher. These factors will affect the outcome of the polygraph or any other "truth finding" machines.

I would like to read your daughter's paper.
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jul 6th, 2003 at 4:40pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Fred F.

I would guess the avg. person speaks in the 6 to 8 whole note range. Some people speak in monotone. Singing range much different. For instance -  Johnny Cash has maybe 1 1/2 octave singing voice and Opera singers like Marilyn Horn and Maria Calas had maybe 3 1/2 octaves. (Some singers sing in monotone).

Marty

Wind instruments are easily tuned. Years ago I used to play trombone and some days, probably when tired, I would play flat. For that particular concert I would have to tune "up" slightly. The tuning mechanism is at the back of the isntrument.

BTW, for people not musically inclined, the A in front of the 440 means the key of A.

Bottom line. I would say voice analysis has, maybe, the validity of CQT polygraph. It MIGHT be able to gain a confession simply out of fear of the instrument.

Posted by: orolan
Posted on: Jul 6th, 2003 at 4:11pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Twoblock,
My daughter has a classmate in her Applied Voice class who has Spasmodic Dysphonia, the Adductor variant. Her voice is all over the scale, varying in pitch, loudness, hoarseness, etc. And the more "stressed out" she gets, the worse it gets. This girl went to 8 different doctors over a 10-year period before her condition was properly diagnosed. My daughter ended up writing a paper about the girl for her Psych class, which is how I found out about it.
What do you know about this, and doesn't it seem that a person with this affliction is guaranteed to fail any type of voice-stress analysis?
Posted by: Fred F.
Posted on: Jul 6th, 2003 at 3:33am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
TwoBlock/Marty

It seems that this "technology has more "holes" in it then Mr. Rosen wants you to know.

Another thing that puzzles me since you say voice is affected by atmospheric and other conditions, How can he claim to have success analyzing recorded voices?  If Chet Atkins has 2500 chord variations, then it would be safe to assume that he has more voice pitch variations?

TwoBlock, Do you have an educated guess to the number of pitch variations in the average person?

Fred F. Wink



Posted by: Marty
Posted on: Jul 6th, 2003 at 2:02am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Twoblock,

Very interesting! I had never considered the impact of altitude on pitch. I assume common practice would be to adjust string instruments (which wouldn't be changed by altitude) to match the pitch shift of wind instruments since it would be presumably harder (or impossible) to tune them for the shift in the speed of sound.

-Marty
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jul 4th, 2003 at 10:03pm
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Fred F

A440 means that the wave length contains 440 beats a second at sea level. In the mountains of Colorado it would be something like 442. An A440 tuning fork at sea level would be off at 6000 ft. because of the different atmospheric pressure. Thefore my voice C would be off. Is Rosen going to keep his subjects at sea level while testing?

As to the 18,000 voice patterns, I would think there would be many more. Chet Atkins, my guitar idol and who I patterned my guitar playing after, knew over 2500 different chord variations. Each has many voice variations.

I just don't buy voice analysis of any kind.

Posted by: Fred F.
Posted on: Jul 4th, 2003 at 4:30am
  Mark & Quote
Twoblock wrote on Jul 1st, 2003 at 5:49am:
Fred F

I wonder if Harry Rosen would care to list his mining and oil exploits. This sounds like it is another one of his promotion schemes. After all it sounds like he used someone else's product and supposedly "improved" it. This scenareo sounds familiar. I am, also, familiar with mining and oil promotions.

Anyone with a trained voice, such as a singer, could knock the hell out of any voice analysis instrument. As well as being a miner, I am also a singer. I can hit an A4/40 C on demand without a pitch pipe.

I wonder if LEA Detection would put up a 10 to 5 deal like the polygrapher in Texas?




TwoBlock,

Rosen says Quote:
We're trying not to oversell it -- but it works," says the World War II veteran


He did manage to get the LA County Sheriff's Dept. to use this "technology" and have "results" of weeding out "innocent" people. What happened to investigations done the old fashioned way? Too many criiminals getting away?

I also would like to see how his mining and oil exploits went as well. He obviously didn't do too well.

Can you explain the voice pitch A4/40 C? Rosen claims to have 18,000 voice "patterns"but you would think that there are far more than that.


Fred F. Wink
Posted by: suethem
Posted on: Jul 2nd, 2003 at 5:34am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
In a time when we need 'heads on sticks' and more 'boots' on the ground in both LE and Mil- this is what we get.  What a waste of funds. 

Maybe I should get in on the con.  My new 'investigative tool' could be  called "the suspect wheel."  Spin and look at the 'indentifier window' and find your man. 

Don't worry about knowing your neigborhoods or making contacts in the community- 'the suspect wheel' takes away all those lingering questions and gives you the easy answer that seemed so difficult before.  Racial profiling built right in !!!!  Its so easy and cheap!!
Posted by: orolan
Posted on: Jul 1st, 2003 at 10:33pm
  Mark & Quote
There was a write-up about this for a venture-capital symposium in New Mexico. Interestingly enough, DOE's Sandia Laboratory is a primary funding source.
Quote:
LEA Detection System, Inc. brings a unique, patented technology to the law enforcement and security markets.
A top priority of these agencies is to have a reliable means of determining deception in human interactions. A
computer program called LEADS analyzes elements of actual or recorded speech that reflect neurological intent
to deceive. LEADS' determination of deception is independent of language spoken and is beyond the speaker's
control. LEADS will be marketed through companies that service law enforcement agencies and security companies.
A pilot program with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is underway. Equity capital of $1
million is needed to begin business operations, followed by additional funding to underwrite operations during
the ensuing eighteen months.


http://www.techventures.org/2003Presenterbrochure.PDF
Posted by: Twoblock
Posted on: Jul 1st, 2003 at 5:49am
  Mark & QuoteQuote
Fred F

I wonder if Harry Rosen would care to list his mining and oil exploits. This sounds like it is another one of his promotion schemes. After all it sounds like he used someone else's product and supposedly "improved" it. This scenareo sounds familiar. I am, also, familiar with mining and oil promotions.

Anyone with a trained voice, such as a singer, could knock the hell out of any voice analysis instrument. As well as being a miner, I am also a singer. I can hit an A4/40 C on demand without a pitch pipe.

I wonder if LEA Detection would put up a 10 to 5 deal like the polygrapher in Texas?


Posted by: Fred F.
Posted on: Jul 1st, 2003 at 3:52am
  Mark & Quote
This is an article from a Las Vegas business paper regarding a "new" voice analysis technology being developed by Mr. Harry Rosen of LEA Detection Systems. If CVSA scares you, this will scare you more. The LASD is "testing" this technology with homicide suspects to save man hours.

here is a quick peek
Quote:
Patented in 1999, LEADS was born from decades of research by Asian psychologists       who were looking to identify slight discrepancies in speech patterns when patients were         deliberately trying to deceive during an interrogation. As a result, the software has more          than 18,000 recorded voices installed into it and uses precise algorithms to detect even            the slightest variation in speech that highlight whether a patient or inmate is attempting           to deceive with his or her answers.


Anyone heard of this before ?


http://www.lvbusinesspress.com/articles/2003/06/27/business_profile/busproleads....



Fred F. Wink
 
  Top