The detective while he was taping suggested that not taking a polygraph my not look good.  Off the record and not being recorded he stated he does not beleive in them. But so far he is not to be trusted at this point.  Seems he has a run in with polygrahs before while serving in the US Navy a few years ago as I did also while in the Navy. He did say my neice wants to take one and he may sit her up to do so. I am positive she will prove me innocent. If it goes farther then I am hoping it doesn't I will make sure  everyone know about this site and the book... The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. While I am not being pressured into taking a polygraph needless to say it has been brought up at least 5 times.
This is the same detective who just last week had my neice call me while I was working to dig me for info to see if I will incriminate myself, as he said I sounded like a concerned father.

As I told him I'll never talk to her again if this is the game he is playing, he did asure it will not happen again. I have to be in Juvinile court Sept 5th to answer to allegations, I'm hoping the detective has found enough evidence to have it dropped.
IF not at that time I will be charged.

Bnickell

Bnickell,

How did the investigators looking into your neice's accusation react to your refusal to submit to a polygraph interrogation? For example, did they suggest that your refusal implies that you are guilty? If so, you might wish to refer them (perhaps in writing, so as to create a documented record) to this website, and especially to Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Hopefully, your investigators are less inclined to make snap judgements of guilt based on the slightest of evidence than our friend Batman seems to be.

Moreover, I think any grand jury (that might bring an indictment) or petit jury (that would decide innocence or guilt) would have little difficulty understanding why an innocent person would refuse a polygraph "test," once they understand the fraudulent nature of the procedure. (Although polygraph evidence, or even the fact that a suspect refused a polygraph, is not generally admissible as evidence in a court of law, law enforcement agencies often leak such information to the press, which tends to cause prejudice against the suspect in the mind of the public -- including the pool of potential jurors. If your story makes its way into the press, to defend yourself, you might want to explain to reporters precisely why you refused the polygraph, and perhaps to refer them to AntiPolygraph.org for further information on this pseudoscientific procedure.)

No one knows my program logs chats, I owned a chatline for 4 years. My wife nwo was in singapore runnign it for me . If you own a chatline you have to be able to log anything that comes in private chat incase you have a problem in the channel. Then you can go talk to that person and log that chat too. It just saves you but if something is said and you have to prove it. I stopped owning the chat channel last year, I worked 2 jobs and had no time, it now belongs to someone else. BUT i never turned the logging off.  Now my neice used MIRC at her grandmothers before I got custody. She was on there all the time. After I got her she started talking on it again BUT she never logged in under her registered name. That is how I found it.

needless to say now I ahve some proof..

Bnickell

To POLYCOP,
Just look up the case its public. The CID Agent asked him to take a polygraph. He agreed with no problems, went down to the DOD polygraph institute on base, and took the test. The examiner told him, YOU PASSED! He went back the next day to US Army Trial Defense and spoke to the TD attorney who told him that he was going to be court martialed. They refused to use the polygraph results. Now a friend of mine told me it was because this was during the time when all the drill sergeants were being accused and it was all political but then again, a poly should have cleared him if they are all that BATMAN says that they are. Now polycop is it right that he got screwed. i dont think it is, i think its not right.

so you tell me, I have 12 of these and she does not even know she was being logged at the times she logged onto the internet.


anyway I have to go to work right now Ill be back later.
Bnickell

Now so that you know I DID NOT DO IT,  and it pisses me off that because someone gets pissed at you they can make allegations and put you in this situation.

Im 47 with no history of ever hurting anyone.....
Also as for her allegations in July here is what she was writing in chat rooms in may,

Session Start: Tue May 28 03:56:56 2002
Session Ident: Anna-belle
<Amber15> you ever been with your uncle
<Amber15> I need help
<Anna-belle> sorry, i never was, amber
<Anna-belle> what kind of help?
<Amber15> I want to try to be with him but hes doesn't look at me that way
<Amber15> he has cuctody of me
<Amber15> hes older than me
<Amber15> ive had sex with guys my age and a couple girls too
<Amber15> its hard to be alone with him but we go fishing all night
<Amber15> but I end up sleeping for 3 or 4 hours
<Anna-belle> slow down =) you want to have sex with your uncle?
<Amber15> yes
<Amber15> sorry
<Amber15> just thats hes working his baking job and will be home soon
<Amber15> im supposed to be in bed sleep
<Anna-belle> and who else lives with the two of you?
<Amber15> his wife and my cousin and his girlfriend and baby
<Anna-belle> that's like, not an easy way
<Amber15> I know
<Anna-belle> you want just sex, or love him?
<Amber15> both maybe

Bnickell

Polycop, Anonymous,

See also Kathleen Coulborn Fowler's paper, "The Polygraph, Its Use in Cases of Alleged Sexual Abuse: An Exploratory Study" (74 kb PDF). The following is an excerpt:

Quote:

Polycop,

You write:

Quote:


My primary concern with this type of polygraph screening is not that it is unfair (you win, it is ), but that it is completely inaccurate and has no business being masqueraded to clinical psychologists or any other counselors (unfortunately, many times lacking the scientific backgrounds to evaluate the validity of "tools" that are peddled to them) as a diagnostic tool.  I don't know and haven't discussed this matter with this diverse group of professionals, but am aware of one who has researched (and presumably will publish) the issue of the post traumatic stress syndrome (PTSD) that various polygraph examinees have suffered as a result of having endured the nonsense connected with taking polygraph exams.  I would suggest you double your professional liability insurance before that one is released. 

Polycop,

I for one decline the challenge you've put forth. Little of interest would come of it. You suggest that we poll at random 100 (post-conviction sex offender) counselors who use polygraphy at least to some extent, and ask them whether they would ever go back to not using the polygraph at all (assuming they didn't rely on polygraphs from the very beginning of their careers). In the survey you suggest, the outcome is foreordained: those polled have all decided to rely on polygraphy, at least to some extent. If they were of a mind not to rely on polygraphs, then they probably wouldn't be using them. So what's the point?

In addition, your proposed methodology systematically excludes all counselors who have decided not to rely on polygraphy.

And finally, while some sex offender counselors may find the admissions obtained from polygraph screening to be useful, their opinions regarding its utility do not speak to the validity of polygraphy. And we don't claim that CQT polygraphy has no utility, just that it has no grounding in the scientific method and has no validity as a diagnostic technique.

By contrast, the polygraph community claims to be able to detect countermeasures. Drew Richardson's thus far unanswered polygraph countermeasure challenge (215 days and counting) speaks directly to this claimed ability.

Quote:


You would prefer counselors go back to looking into the big brown  puppy eyes of their offenders insisting they are "cured" and would never, ever re-offend?  How about the additional victims who never come foward on their own?  There is alot of noise on this site about the "unfairness" of post-conviction sex offender testing...

This site is quite fond of putting out "challenges" to the polygraph community.  I would like to put forth a challenge of my own. Poll 100 counselors (at random) who manage sex offenders using polygraph at least in part.  Ask how many would ever go back to NOT using polygraph at all.  I would venture a guess that less than three would go back.

I might be wrong.  Anybody want to take up the challenge?

Polycop....

Polycop,

Glad to see you have surfaced from the muck and mire of the world polygraph screening.  As with other forms of polygraph screening, that which focuses on sexual crimes has no validity whatsoever and is even more suspect than other applications (e.g., counterintelligence matters, etc.)  because of the universally inflammatory nature of the subject matter. You use the term “a full disclosure polygraph exam,” as if this implies thoroughness, when in fact it is merely a misnomer for an unabated fishing expedition. 

Those of you involved in such should be embarrassed about promoting a business opportunity through playing on the fears of society.  I don’t pretend to  know what dark ages confront the world of counseling, but if polygarph is in any way involved, you can rest assured that it lies at the epicenter of that which is dark, unfounded, based on a lack of education, and that which yields error in every direction.  Although anecdotal and hardly compelling should they exist, it is hard to understand why you are unwilling to reveal the details of a polygraph exam(s) that you claim resulted in the diagnosis(es) (presumably and hopefully followed by investigation leading to prosecution and conviction) of  felonies (obviously a public matter).  Perhaps you might care to share your thoughts on the "Joseph" post and the Batman vs. George Maschke analysis of the information presented.  Do you agree with your colleague's analysis?

jet-journalist wrote on Aug 31^st, 2002 at 12:26am:


Okay,

Let me get this right.  This man was innocent, told the truth, was administered a polygraph examination, and passed???  Forgive me for my confusion, but wouldn't this post be more appropriately placed on "Pro-polygraph.org"?

Polycop...  

Quote:


Please repeat that assertion to the counsellor who over many months or years believed the promises from his sex offender "client" that the offender has never re-offended.  The offender is then administered a full disclosure polygraph exam (over the cries of "foul" by the offender) and as a result, the counsellor discovers the offender has scores of additional victims and coincidently screwed his 13 year old daughter last night....

Whether you would like to admit it or not, this scenario occurs every day across this country.  No, I am not going to provide names or arrest reports as some on this site like to demand whenever an example is given.  I would suggest however that if you were to poll counsellors who now use polygraph as part of their disclosure programs, I strongly believe that virtually every last one would NEVER go back to the dark old days of closing their eyes and believing the words of the molester who has everything to gain by lying and getting away with it.

Polycop...

Batman,

In recent days you seem to have become the poster boy for quick decisions and poor judgment as evidenced by series of posts.  You have outdone yourself with the reply to Joseph in another thread.  I hope that you and others will very carefully read George's analysis of that reply.  I would like to think that professional real life for you involves a higher proportion of criminal investigation and a substantially lower proportion of snap judgment.  If not, this sort of decision-making process coupled with the horror of sex crimes polygraph screening should make all Americans cringe.

Although I have been admittedly cynical with you over your posts, I am actually disappointed to have seen them.  Over the last several months, you have made considerably more rational and reasoned replies to others on a variety of subjects.  Hopefully the "Joseph" post and others are merely a reflection of the late hour and other personal and professional strains.

Batman,

You write:

Quote:


So tell me, pal, does it work well for you when you do it with your eyes open?

actualy bricknel suggests that nothing happened, read again, he never says he did it either batman. Sorry got to use your head and think when reading. the computer wont interpt for you the way your polygraph machine does.

Anonymous,

What gives, you having a bad day or what?  Why is it you clowns always feel so compelled to come to each others defense?

I could give a rats backside whether the post was 9 months old or 9 seconds old.  Bottom line is I see jerks like Friendtoall and Bnickell at least a few times a week.  They're as guilty as hell, and if these two numbnuts are real and the postings are real then I will bet a years wages that they're guilty too.

Goofballs like you need to put a rubberband around your head, snap it, and wake up!  Read their posts man, not even the least hint of a denial of the accusations, so yeah, in my business that's means their guilty.  Tell me Anonymous, if you were falsely accused of engaging in sexual molestation, one, would you deny it, and two, would you plead guilty to it, just to "learn a lesson"?  Pull your head out buddy, you might be surprised what it looks like in the real world.

And where in the hell did I offer any defense of polygraph? Idiots like you need to stop reading evey non-complying post on this site as a defense of polygraph.  Not everyone that posts to this site is either pro or anti polygraph.  Maybe some of us are just sick of people like you making lame excuses for slugs like Friendtoall (and I'll bet he is if they're underage), and Bnickell, coming to their defense, and offering them ways to beat the rap.

I don't think I'll be nominated for the Nobel any time soon, so you're not alone pal.  But I also won't be mistaken for someone who goes through life with my eyes closed, pissing into the into the wind.  I guess the world needs people like you just so people like Friendtoall and Bnickell can say they have associates.

Batman      

Hey BATMAN,
     Let me tell you a true story that even your bias'd self can confirm as TRUE! One day there was a Private E-1 female assigned to a Chemical Basic training unit. She was 5'6 112lbs Blonde Hair, Blue eyes. She was late to formation one day. Late by 4 minutes. In basic 4 minutes is a LONG TIME! This female, when she made it to her formation had a EVIL eye'd Drill Sergeant waiting for her. DS (SFC)Gomez!!! DS Gomez was feared by all but also respected, which is a hard combination when you talk about a DS. He was hard but he was also fair. He yelled screamed and threatened, then decided on physical and emotional punishment. He had her do 10 push-ups, 10 sit-ups. and 10 cross country skiers. Upon completion he left her in the front leaning rest (push up) position (Physical punishment), and he walked inside the CQ Bldg. He came out with a 8" x 8" clock and told her to recover. He then put the clock in her hand and told her to put it around her neck (Emotional Punishment). She was embarrassed and pissed. One week later MP's were arresting him, bringing him to the CID's office for questioning. He was court martialed for Sexual Misconduct with a Trainee, Adultry , and various other offense related. As he stood on the witness stand at his request, he cried, and told all how his life is over for a crime he never comitted. No one believed him until SHE, the "Victim" stood up and blurted that she lied and was mad that he made a mockery of her in front of all her peers, but she was sorry for trying to hurt him, and now she wants to be discharged from the service. Ya ok, charges are dropped all back to norm right? Nope, he will never make his E-8. NEVER, even though nothing happened, NEVER. And you cant sue the army. It dont work like that. You know whats funny, He took a poly before his court martial and passed, Administered at the polygraph institute on base, SPC. Bailey gave it to him. But I am sure I know what happened. Some COCKY piece of crap probably with a nick name of BATMAN(superhero who wheres a mask to hide his hidious features) CID Agent came along and said, "sex offender, hmmm.... he wont admitt it. Let me figure out under what title to investigate this as>>>>> Put on top of that the classic "blame the victim" tactic and it becomes painfully obvious who did what to whom.<<<<<  Yep that should work. now lets burn 'em at the STAKE!!! Its because of someone like you Batman that this happened to a great Solider who trains others in Chemical Biological Threats. Thanks to people like you, we lost a great man that day. But I am sure after you confirm this story you will believe he still did it and still feel the need to "BURN "EM at the STAKE!!!" Your a sad man Batman, I feel pitty for you and all those like you. Your day to be judge will soon be at hand, and there will be no machine for you to hide behind, just that nice small UNEMPLOYMENT CHECK!!!!

Jet-Journalist
Brian Knox

Batman,

Aside from the timeliness issue, your last post really is truly amazing.  If we could describe the "substance" of that post as Batman's Theorem, the proof of such would go largely as follows:

1. Because you (friendtoall) did not specifically deny involvement in a two-paragraph post, you are guilty.

2.  Because you are guilty, polygraph works.

3. Because you are guilty and polygraph works, you should not take a poly.

Wow!!!  Who in the polygraph brain trust helped you with this one???  Perhaps a Nobel in your future, Batman???  Hmmm....well maybe you shouldn't spend too much time brushing up on your Swedish yet....   

Batman,

I notice that the friendtoall post (that the majority of your most recent reply is directed to) is 9 months old.  Hopefully the next time you offer an irrelevant defense of "voodoo science, witch doctors, etc..." you will at least be more timely (if not more substantive) in your response.  Perhaps you have been spending too much time with the pro-polygraph sites where you could reasonably expect nothing of substance to be posted/change in 9 months, hey Batman??   

Friendtoall and Bnickell,

I found it interesting that in your postings both of you failed to actually deny the allegations levied against you.  In my business that in itself is very telling as it pertains to simple human nature (nothing to do with voodoo science, witch doctors, etc.).  Put on top of that the classic "blame the victim" tactic and it becomes painfully obvious who did what to whom.  My question to both of you is, was it worth it?

Friendtoall, I find your situation even more interesting in that you were willing to actually plead guilty to something you did not do.  You were willing to "take it as a learning experience and not put yourself in compromising situations in the future."   Wow!!!  If I were you, I would do everything in my power to stay away from a polygraph.  The least of your concerns should be a "false positive".  If I were a betting man I say you stand a snowball's chance in hell of coming anywhere close to non-deceptive.  The best countermeasure you could employ would be to not take the polygraph, however you could try some of the more simplistic ones offered on this sight and others. 

Regardless, given your posting, I would say your are already well on the minus side of the numerical evaluation scale!  Good Luck, you'll need it plus some!

Batman

I feel for you: Im in the same situation except I have told them I will not take a polugraph. My neice is 15 and I had custody of her for the last 6 months. I cought her using drugs and having sex with girls in school and when I told her I was going to file unruly charges on her the next day she called children services and told them we had consensual oral sex. The next day she she called them and told then she lied and she wanted to come back to live with me, then the next day she told them the lie again?????. Now there are just allegations I have to answer to but I have a lot of crap to go through before I am charged, hopefully the detective will see thru her as he has told me she is not being truthful.

She has a diary but she never wrote in it until she left for the foster home, now the foster mother told her to go tell the police WHAT they want to know and I will get you emancipated by the time you are 16?????  Just what she wants, run the streets, have sex with young girls.

I told the police that I have many letters where she has had sex with 13 and 14 year old girls and look where she is now. In a house with 6 girls her age, who is the predator.

thanks
bnickell in OHIO

Quote:

Although both of these situations are quite possible, note that even in a polygraph "test" where there is no bias, an innocent person still stands a substantial chance of "failing."

  Ok, im an ex-military person of good upbringing and background.  I was involved in a situation where a vendictive teenage girl (who had a crush on me)was able to use a diary and a lot of detective's scare tactics to convict me of what amounts to stagitory rape.  I plead guilty out of fear only, taking 30 days in the can and some manditory counseling as an alternative to 20 or 30 years in prison.  I figured no big deal, i should take it as a learning experience and not put myself in compromising situations in the future.  I felt lucky to be given that, as everyone involved seemed to pretty much consider me guilty as soon as they heard the charges(there was never any real evidence of anything, but all the talk of sympathetic jurys and judges with pre-concieved notions is scary).
     So now after the humiliation of losing my military career for it, and being forced to tell my family that i in fact committed the act( under threat of jail by my counselor), i find that i also have to consent to polygraphs in which the examiner can ask anything and everything he wants about your past.  Are we Nazis????? What is happening to this country?  I am ashamed to be in this situation and i pray every day that i could go back in time and nuke this situation before it happened, but its too late.  Now i have  a first poly coming up.  I dont believe in them, in fact i think they are gross perversions of our judicial system in the foulest sense.  If a polygrapher wants to extort money, you get an inconclusive.  If your probationers dont like you, you get a fail.  Hey, i wasnt born yesterday folks.  Do something to overturn this medieval practice or we are all doomed to a dark age like you could never imagine.  Take a stand!  I for one am beginning now. 
    In the meantime i need to be sure... i want facts.  I need to pass this exam. I ask for your help.  I am a good and honest American who has been in Somalia, the Persian Gulf, and off Kosovo proudly defending our trade routes.  Now i find myself at the mercy of some disgusting offshoot of a mad scientist....except that their work has no real grounds in science.  Help me to be sure.  Help my get some of my dignity back.  Im scared and i want my life back, but the polygraph is in my way.........Thank you for your time.........