Polypro Pauline wrote on May 23^rd, 2010 at 3:33pm:


That is a nice fairy tale to believe in, but such has not been my experience.  I failed three polygraphs (for three different "reasons") before passing my fourth.

The fairy tale in your post is one often repeated by fans of the polygraph, but there is little scientific evidence to indicate it is true.

I'd like tapes of field polygraph exams for possible use in research and/or film.  

Please get in touch with me directly if you can help:  katelyn.sack at gmail dot com.  Thanks. 

Dear Polypro Pauline,

You mention that most departments tape their tests.  The federal agencies do not record nor provide any information regarding the test even when an FOI is filed.  If you read many of the posts, there are far more people who are upset when the request for information is basically responded to with no information.  I think that if the videotaped tests were made known to the public, it would make the public demand that all government workers take a polygraph or that polygraph examinations should be stopped.  Don't TELL the American Public what you do, SHOW them on videotape how infallible your work is.  If it is scientific, a little light should only make you shine more.

Regards.

Polypro Pauline,

The post you cite does not in any way refute the arguments I've made concerning the polygraph community's inability to detect the countermeasures described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. I think the venom in Daddy-O's post is rooted in his discomfort with this truth. A truth that you and your fellow polygraph operators are sadly unwilling to confront.

If you want readers to believe that you can detect countermeasures, please provide the evidence therefor.

I am surprised that you would give us a link to that. Especially to Daddy-O's post, which makes more sense than your argument:

Several things have amazed me as I have read posts over the last month.

1)  20% of the posts seem to revolve around individuals who have been convicted of molesting children.  The are not coming to learn about the polygraph, they are actively seeking ways to beat the polygraph so they can continue to MOLEST CHILDREN!  Children who will go on to repeat this cycle.

2)  20% of the posts revolve around people who are utterly confused about polygraph and by reading the TLBTLD are only lessing the effect of the questions that are to their benefit.  These people are mistakely led to think that people in LAW ENFORCEMENT do not want anyone else hired and the cards are stacked against them and that they will be a false positive.  A false positive which will serve as a scarlet letter procluding from all further employment.   

Departments and agencies do not share this information.  IT IS ILLEGAL!  People who apply for these jobs cast a wide net and if they are in the 3-5% false postive percent range they will still hook up with one of the several thousand other law enforcement agencies.

3)  30% of the people who come to this site are those who have criminal behavior they are trying to hide.  Criminal behavior which in my experience includes attempted murder, rape, armed robbery, and many cases of child molestation.  All of which would not have come to light if not for polygraph.  People who would have been sworn in and patrolled the streets today. 

4)  20% are those who have nothing to hide but hear alleged horror stories about the polygraph.  Being screamed at, tortured, etc.  This doesn't happen!  Most departments tape there tests for this reason and project oversight exists.  After reading this, the person becomes scared and makes a giant leap of faith. They think there is only way to pass the testis to:
COMMIT CONTERMEASURES!!!!!

Unfortunately, they get caught.  Instead of obtaining thier dream job the research has been their demise.  People say CM's are not caught.  They are caught VIRTUALLY ALL THE TIME.  People that have nothing to hide are now disqualified.

If you have nothing to hide, met the departments guidelines and tell the truth you will pass the polygraph. 

The unknown 10% are the real scary part.  What are their intentions? Are they using the information obtained on this site, through TLBTLD, and William's to try and obtain access to intelligence agencies.

Let's look at the teacher:
A man who was told he failed an intelligence polygraph and gave disqualifying confessions.   
A man who studied Arab languages and now resides outside the United States.   
A man who may receive foreign funding. 
A man who teaches child molesters to beat the test.

Who is the enemy to America, Not the polygraphers who are fighting the fight every day.
The enemy is you George

Polypro Pauline,

For reasons of self-preservation, it is crucial for the polygraph community that it appear to be capable of reliably detecting polygraph countermeasures. To this end, countermeasures have become a popular topic at polygraph seminars, and a number of polygraphers profess to teach methods of countermeasure detection.

Various methods used in an attempt to detect (or deter) countermeasures are outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and in the message thread, Polygraph Counter-Countermeasure Techniques.

But the fact of the matter remains that no polygraph operator has ever demonstrated the ability to detect the kinds of countermeasures outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and there are no journal articles or book chapters that explain how to detect them.

Countermeasure "detection" consists of guesswork ("these reactions look too good to be true!" or "these reactions look like they were made with a cookie cutter!") and badgering the examinee for an admission. If polygraph operators truly could detect countermeasures (or deception, for that matter), there would be no need to obtain admissions.

Holy Rolly Poley, Batman. I don't think he gets it. Let me help you out. If the polygrapher ony interrogated your friend regarding countermeasures obviously your friend's countermeasures were detected. Or does it make any sense that a polygrapher would just accuse someone for no reason and go through an hour of that rather than just passing your friend and sending him on his way or using that hour to better interrogate about a lie? Seems that without a doubt at least some polygraphers are learning how to spot countermeasures whether the polygraph works or not.

I think I've already substantially addressed your questions. If you're still confused, please give me a call either by Skype or telephone, and I'll be happy to discuss these matters with you.

I am still confused. . . My friend had nothing to hide regarding the relevant issues pertaining to Crimes, Drugs, Application.  However, my friend was afraid of being labeled "false positive" to these issues.  So, my friend did some research and decided to apply countermeasures (both mental and physical) to produce greater responses to the control questions.  

Not once, did the examiner ever accuse my friend of showing deception to any of the relevant issues.  So, obviously the examiner was able to identify something atypical about my friend's physiological responses to correctly conclude countermeasures and interrogate accordingly.  Of course, my friend thought the examiner was bluffing and denied all the accusations.  The examiner told my friend that there would probably be no retest due to an integrity issue, but someone in headquarters would review the results and make the final decision.  A few weeks later, my friend received a rejection letter with no opportunity for a retest.  

Now, I have another friend (who did not use countermeasures) and tested with this same agency.  This friend also had some issues with their exam.  However, the examiner in this case interrogated this friend about the control questions, and never once brought up the subject of countermeasures.  This friend was told that the results were "inconclusive"(what does that mean?) and the results would need to be further reviewed by headquarters.  A week later, my second friend was rescheduled for a retest.

In both situations, it appears that someone at headquarters was involved in the review process and the examiner DID NOT have the final say regarding whether there would be a retest.

Now, I am scheduled for an exam. . . I have nothing to hide, but I do not want to be labeled "false positive".  I am not sure if I should engage in countermeasures (and risk being disqualified if caught) or just answer the questions as best as I can (and hopefully get a retest if there are any issues).

The polygraph operator is a trained interrogator, and as such is likely to be proficient at picking up verbal and nonverbal cues that indicate deception.  It seems likely that the opinion of the polygraph operator in this case was that your friend was lying, and that opinion was sufficient for whoever makes the personnel decisions to disqualify your friend from the application process.

Despite the pro-polygraph community’s insistence that the polygraph is a scientifically valid instrument, the results generally depend on an educated guess by the polygraph operator.  Like any educated guess, there is a chance of an incorrect conclusion.  The chance varies with the skill of the interrogator, but it is always present.

Unlike a criminal investigation, in which the opinion of the detective conducting the interview is insufficient by itself to establish probable cause, a polygraph examination (in which there is no disqualifying admission) is virtually always decided by the opinion of the interviewer.

As I mentioned in my earlier reply, you may be accused of using polygraph countermeasures whether or not you choose to employ them. There is no evidence that using countermeasures actually increases the risk of a countermeasure accusation, or that non-use of countermeasures reduces that risk.

Given polygraphy's complete lack of scientific underpinnings, the high failure rate in federal pre-employment polygraph screening (~50%), and the inability of polygraph operators to actually detect countermeasures, I think the choice to use countermeasures to mitigate the risk of a false positive outcome is an obvious one.

But whether you choose to use countermeasures or not, if your polygraph operator opines that you used them, there will be no retest. Any promise of a retest "if only you'll admit what you were doing" is a lie.

The best you can do in such a situation is to politely but firmly deny having done anything to manipulate the results, decline to be further interrogated, and leave.

Now I am really confused...  My friend DID deny the accusations, and did not immediately walk away (as was recommended).  

It was the examiner who ended the interrogation after going round and round for over an hour about countermeasures and getting nothing out of my friend. The examiner never accused my friend about lying about any of the relevant questions or the control questions...  The entire interrogation was centered on my friend's countermeasures and my friend's "deliberate attempts to affect the outcome of the exam".  

This was my friend's first polygraph and my friend had nothing to hide, but was scared to death of being labeled "false positive" on the polygraph.   I am concerned because I also have nothing to hide, but I too am afraid of being labeled "false positive".  

However, I am also worried that if I get caught doing countermeasures to help myself, the examiner will disqualify me based on an integrity issue.  When accused of countermeasures, is there anything one could say that would appease the examiner to gain the benefit of the doubt... that perhaps what the examiner is seing is "not a deliberate attempt to affect the outcome of the exam", and something else instead?

Regarding Polygraph Retests, I do know of others who have been given Retests.  I was just wondering how one could increase the chance of getting a Retest if there was an issue with their exam.  After seeing what happened to my friend, I am not looking forward to my exam and I just want to be prepared for what ever comes my way and have a backup plan, just in case.

If you are accused of using countermeasures, there is nothing you can say that will convince the polygraph operator otherwise. The only purpose for the post-test interrogation is to get a confession. When the polygraph operator "offered [your] friend the opportunity of a Retest, if [your] friend only admitted to countermeasures and promised to follow the examiner's instructions," the polygraph operator was lying.

If accused of countermeasures, the best one can do is to deny it, make no admissions, and terminate the interrogation. There is nothing you can do to get a re-test.

With regard to the risk of being "caught" using countermeasures, you should be aware that no polygraph operator has ever demonstrated any ability to detect countermeasures. There are no articles or book chapters that document how to detect the kinds of countermeasures presented in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, and retired FBI scientist and polygraph expert Dr. Drew Richardson's polygraph countermeasure challenge has gone more than eight years without a single taker.

Countermeasure "detection" consists of guesswork and badgering the examinee for admissions. You may be accused of using countermeasures whether or not you elect to employ them.

I have a friend who recently failed a polygraph with a federal agency, due to countermeasures.  As suggested in Chapter 4 of "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector", my friend steadfastly denied using countermeasures.  However, the examiner did not believe any of my friend's denials and repeatedly accused my friend of "deliberately trying to affect the results of the test".  The examiner even offered my friend the opportunity of a Retest, if my friend only admitted to countermeasures and promised to follow the examiner's instructions.  Still my friend denied the accusations.  After interrogating my friend about countermeasures for over an hour, the examiner finally ended the exam.  When my friend asked the examiner if there would be a Retest, the examiner said "It is up to Headquarters to decide, but they will probably say No because the countermeasures denials will be interpreted as an Integrity Issue".  A few weeks later, my friend received a rejection letter from this agency.  Now, I am scheduled to take a polygraph with this same agency and after seeing what my friend went thru, I am worried that the same thing might happen to me if I am caught using countermeasures.  What would be the best defense if I am accused of countermeasures?  What should I admit to if my examiner does not accept my denials and accuses me of deliberately trying to affect the results of the test?  If I fail due to countermeasures, how do I get a Retest?