Conquistador wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:49pm:


I believe that both LASD and Border Patrol use a probable-lie control question test (CQT) for pre-employment screening. The Border Patrol's specific polygraph technique is likely some variation of the Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test, the examiner's guide for which you'll find here:

https://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf

And you'll find a pamphlet produced by the LASD polygraph section here:

https://antipolygraph.org/documents/lasd-polygraph-pamphlet.pdf

The pamphlet's sample polygraph report features check boxes with, presumably, the section's most commonly used polygraph techniques: ZCT (Zone Comparison Test), MGQT (Modified General Question Test), AFMGQT (Air Force Modified General Question Test), and POT (Peak of Tension). Of these, the most likely techniques that would be used in a screening situation are the MGQT and AFMGQT. Regarding these techniques, see p. 364 ff. of James Allan Matte's Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph.

T.M. Cullen wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 6:44pm:


I am applying for Custody Assistant with the Los Angeles Sheriff Department and am currently waiting for my background to clear. Next I  will be applying for border Patrol are you familar with the test procedure either one employs?

Phillip F Queeg wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 4:44am:

I don't think you understand.  No one is claiming that people cannot change wikis, or that wikis are not changed frequently.

George's post was simply pointing out that the wiki article was changed, either by a person who believes the polygraph is a valid test or by a person who doesn't want correct information on the polygraph to be publicly available.

T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 1:20am:


Indeed, the NSA's standby polygraph technique is the Relevant/Irrelevant one. However, most law enforcement agencies use some variant of the Control Question Test to screen applicants. One of the most commonly used probable-lie control questions involves theft from an employer. If a law enforcement applicant admits to pilfering a pen or two when asked, "Did you ever take anything from an employer?" the question will be re-phrased, "Other than what you told me, did you ever take anything from an employer?" The question is still a control question, and the examinee's denial is still expected to be less than fully truthful. And an examinee using countermeasures would still want to show a reaction to this question.

It should be borne in mind, however, that some agencies use a relevant question about major theft from an employer. For example, a relevant question reportedly used by the LAPD is, "Have you stolen more than four hundred dollars in cash or property from an employer?" If a question about theft from an employer involves theft beyond a significant dollar threshold, it's safe to assume that it is a relevant question.

In case anyone doesn't already know, J.B. Books was a character in the movie THE SHOOTIST with John Wayne.

Later Pilgrims!

TC

Don't people change wikis all the time? My college professor banned using them for research because they change all the time and they aren't very accurate.

I think thats one of the base rules for wikihow is that anyone is supposed to be able to change them right?

The wikiHow article was heavily vandalized, evidently by a polygrapher using the screen name JBBOOKS, on 22 October 2008:

http://www.wikihow.com/index.php?title=Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)&dif...

This was one week after I posted an observation on the article's popularity here:

https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1154623716/52#52

YIKES!!

That guy is desperate to keep the truth from being exposed.

TC

TC,

You make want to look at the Wiki link again--it appears to have been edited by a polygraph operator.

By the references to "Dr. George Maschke," it would be reasonable to conclude that the editing may have been done by the same polygraph operator recently ejected from this site.

Conquistador,

If you disclosed that you accidently took a been on your application of course you should NOT use CM on that. 

Just admit to it, and move on.

For what purpose are you taking the polygraph?  Criminal suspect?  Job applicant?  Which agency?

You DO NOT use CM on relevant questions!  If this is a LE agency, stealing would probably be a RELEVANT issue.  So admit to taking the pen, BY MISTAKE< but don't admit to anything else! 

Don't sign anything, and do not volunteer anything of a self incriminating nature concerning RELEVANT questions, NO MATTER how INSIGNIFICANT you may think it is.  Except for the pen which you've already discclosed, and they probably don't give a shit about!


TC

lol..alrightee I have another one that popped into my head and I again thank you for you knowledge this matter....
But as I recall I asked you about the using the counter measure if they asked me have I ever stolen anything?...even though on my background packet I filled out that I have mistakenly took a pen from work in the past...

You agreed that I should use counter measure on it..

When I fess up to the fact that I have....you said if I got a dickhead examiner it would be a problem..
what would happen if he asked me to write down that I have stolen a pen?..would this situation realistically happen?...(signed comfession)

Because I remember reading the book and it saying never to sign such a thing..but I am confused on this one because it is on my background packet..

sorry if I seem a bit worried over catious

I still see the polygrapher as an escaped mental patient who had tied me up to a card board box which can detect my lies LOL  

Quote:


You do difficult math in your head (like counting backwards by 3 from 2317 as fast as you can).  It raises your response, unless you're a math geek, in which case it gives you a hard-on!

TC

T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 1:20am:


Thank you for your reply I still have one another lingering question though about doing mental math as a counter measure.
Does it raise your physical responses or shifts your physical respones to a some what neutral state?..

Quote:


You employ CM on the CONTROL questions only!  If and only if there are control  questions.  They compare your reaction to the control questions and relevant questions.  If you react more to the control questions you pass.

DO NOT USE CMs ON IRRELEVANT QUESTIONS!  That is, questions like ("Is your name...?"  "Were you born in ...?"...etc.

Note:  With some test formats, you don't need to use CMs.   For example, in 2000 I took the polygraph at the NSA.  They used a format in which there were NO CONTROL QUESTIONS.  There were only relevant questions (4 counter intelligence questions), and then some filler questions ("Is your name...?", "Were you born in....?").  In that format, if you react (above a certain threshold) more on one RQ, versus the other RQs, you fail.  

TC

Well I thank all of you for the clarification and for those of you who tried to throw me off I just want to say I am pro countermeasures because I have novice knowledge about the polygraph and with just using common sense if counter measures did not work then why would they need to use pressure sensitive pads to try to detect such measures?... 

Another Question I have is when they ask you to do a math problem in your head does that raise your physical responses?..or does it keep them neutral?..because a family friend of mine said she did mental math during the whole process of the polygraph and passed?...

The last Question I have is should I use counter measures on irrelevant questions? or just the Control?....I apologize if that has been asked a million times I just want to make sure...

I again thank you for your time responding...

The NAS report clearly does not support the position that sophisticated countermeasures (such as those outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) increase the likelihood of a truthful person being wrongly deemed deceptive. And there is no evidence that the polygraph community has any ability to detect such countermeasures.

Its interesting that the only parts of the NAS study you find credible and useful are the parts with which you agree. 

Sancho Panza

And let us not forget that Sancho Panza recently lied about the existence of "published studies as late as 2007 that countermeasures are detectable and that honest people who employ them actually lessen their chances of passing a test." No such studies have been published.

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So much for your "evidence" Sancho.  Are you trying to fudge the facts to throw Conquistador off?

Shame on you!  You should be working at a used car lot selling lemons to old ladies!

TC

SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:25pm:


It is dishonest to cite the NAS report to support the notion that the kinds of countermeasures outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector increase the risk of a truthful person being wrongly found deceptive. As discussed previously on this board, the foregoing passage refers to a study by Honts and Amato of the use of spontaneous (that is, untrained) countermeasures. See, Honts, C.R., S.L. Amato, and A.K. Gordon, "Effects of spontaneous countermeasures used against the comparison question test." Polygraph Vol. 30 (2001), No. 1, pp. 1-9.

In this study, the "countermeasures" were things that subjects ignorant of polygraph procedure did on their own in the belief that it might help them pass the polygraph. Such countermeasures are not comparable to those suggested in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

With regard to the 1980 study by Michael E. Dawson ("Physiological Detection of Deception: Measurement of Responses to Questions and Answers During Countermeasure Maneuvers," Psychophysiology 17 (1), 8–17), as explained in the article abstract: "All subjects were trained in the Stanislavsky method of acting and were instructed to use this method to appear innocent on the polygraph test." Again, this is nothing at all like the countermeasures suggested in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

Simply put, there is no evidence to support the counterintuitive notion that countermeasure use as a rule increases the risk of a false positive outcome.

Quote:


While research into the ease with which countermeasures may be learned is scarce, the existing peer-reviewed research (by Charles Honts and others, see citations and article abstracts in the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) shows that half of programmed guilty subjects passed the polygraph after receiving no more than 30 minutes of training. Those facing polygraphic interrogation in the real world typically have considerably more time and much greater motivation to learn countermeasures.

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Sounds reasonable to me.  If you are going to employ CMs, don't rush into it.  You need to:  1)  Know which questions to employ them with (control not relevant),  2)  Be able to distinguish between the two, 3) Practice altering your F3 response (whether using physical or mental triggers). 

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There is neither evidence that CMs work or that polygraphers can detect them.

So what is a potential false positive to do?  Tell the truth, and you can fail and be falsely called a liar.  

Best advice I've seen on what to do is in the following link:

http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)

You can probably do everything suggested on that link, short of using CMs, and greating increase your chances of passing.  It's all about knowing what the polygraph REALLY IS, and that your polygraph interrogator is probably going to LIE to you about what it really is.   Do not go into the examination room like some naive, gullible victim who only knows what he/she has seen of the polygraph from the popular culture (TV shows, movies...etc.).  I for one, and many other regulars here (including GM probably) fell into that catagory!

TC

Excuse me the complete quote should be
Quote:

Quote:


Sancho Panza

Quote:


You said "countermeasures" in your original post, not "some countermeasures".

What countermeasures do you suppose those ATF agents used to beat the polygraph the Moguls made them take?  At gunpoint?  Of course, they are not like your typical young, naive, gullible, scared job applicant.

They may not have employed any CMs.   Just knowing that the polygraph can not really detect deception, and knowing what the examiner is trying to do (extract a confession, reveal information...etc.) is probably enough to pass.  That and a little acting.  People can survive an interrogation without revealing anything.  And the polygraph is just a fancy interrogation.   

TC

T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:02pm:


There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001). 

Sancho Panza

Quote:


What evidence?

OTOH, the ATF apparently agrees that the polygraph can be beaten, and has trained it's agents accordingly.  That's pretty revealing.

Reading TLBTLD is probably required reading for them!

Incidentally, you don't have to employ CMs to beat a polygraph interrogation, as many high profile spies/murderers have passed without using CM.  Aldrich Ames for one.


TC